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  1. #61
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Very possible. Tough SOB, managed to get W's for his team although a bit ugly, and great taste in women which in his case is a real complement.

    I can remember a number of years where having Garcia leading our team would have been a major upgrade.

    Ponder is smart, athletic, competitive and appears to put in the work. His throwing accuracy and strength appear more middle of the road at this point and his decision making still has a ways to go as expected. It would not surprise me at all if he becomes a 10 year franchise guy for the Vikings just as it wouldn't surprise me to see him fade off in mediocrity with the staff around him molding his future.
    In the next 3-4 years, we'll have a new coach and / or GM who will want "his-guy"....

  2. #62
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    Hopefully it won't take that long if this cast proves to be what most suspect.

    But under that premise, everything other discussion point is pretty meaningless.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    Ahead of ourselves??? Webb clearly played better than Ponder in damn near every game... granted he may not be as talented of a passer, yet, but moved the ball way better than Ponder did, a few times bc he was benched...

    I wouldn't say his high's are not as high... I thought his highs were about as high as you can get when he played well...

    Webb is a superior scrambler and runner... c'mon Nodak that's not even close... Ponder and Webb scramble ability isnt' close..

    Ponder is more accurate I'll give you that... but Webb is more a threat running and throws a better deep ball....

    Your right, one isn't better than the other one.. which is the PROBLEM since one was a 6th round pick and the other was a 1st rounder....

    So in that last paragraph you made my point!!
    I honestly don't know what games you are referring to with Webb. None of his games have been anything special. The game against Washington, when he rushed for over 100 yards was probably his best. However, that game is an outlier. Every other game he rushed four or five times, averaging about 6 yards per rush. Just like Ponder as it turns out. Ponder's ability to move around in and out of the pocket was one of the more surprising things about him last year.

    Go back and look at game tape as well as stats - Webb and Ponder were pretty close in effectiveness in almost every game that they played. There is no way you can say that one clearly played better than the other.

    Webb looks good IMHO because our expectations for a 6rd pick originally drafted as a WR were low, and he came out and played decently. Ponder, on the other hand, was a 12th overall pick, and for good or bad, our collective expectations were higher. Honestly, I never expected him to perform at a high level last year. I am a firm believer that a QB's performance his rookie year is not indicative of what his career will be like.

    I think the best move for this season is to go into training camp with Ponder the starter and Webb the situational backup. I could be wrong, but I think the play of both warrants one season to find out.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  4. #64
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    I honestly don't know what games you are referring to with Webb. None of his games have been anything special. The game against Washington, when he rushed for over 100 yards was probably his best. However, that game is an outlier. Every other game he rushed four or five times, averaging about 6 yards per rush. Just like Ponder as it turns out. Ponder's ability to move around in and out of the pocket was one of the more surprising things about him last year.

    Go back and look at game tape as well as stats - Webb and Ponder were pretty close in effectiveness in almost every game that they played. There is no way you can say that one clearly played better than the other.

    Webb looks good IMHO because our expectations for a 6rd pick originally drafted as a WR were low, and he came out and played decently. Ponder, on the other hand, was a 12th overall pick, and for good or bad, our collective expectations were higher. Honestly, I never expected him to perform at a high level last year. I am a firm believer that a QB's performance his rookie year is not indicative of what his career will be like.

    I think the best move for this season is to go into training camp with Ponder the starter and Webb the situational backup. I could be wrong, but I think the play of both warrants one season to find out.
    The scrambling is rather similar in averages, but if you look at the tape, half the time, Ponder didn't even try to throw the ball... He dropped back and starting running it... Webb, scrambling was different, IMO, where he did it under duress.. Ponder was under it at times, but I thought he took off way too early and too often when his first read wasn't there...

    I remember the last few games Webb actually got in the game for were bc either ponder got hurt or played so bad that they benched him for Webb.... He didn't play a whole lot, but he did move the ball relatively better than Ponder did when He was in the game...

    Specifically, Detroit, NO, Washington, and Chicago.... Granted all this is speculation... But I just don't see Ponder as the answer.. Hopefully I'm wrong...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    The scrambling is rather similar in averages, but if you look at the tape, half the time, Ponder didn't even try to throw the ball... He dropped back and starting running it... Webb, scrambling was different, IMO, where he did it under duress.. Ponder was under it at times, but I thought he took off way too early and too often when his first read wasn't there...

    I remember the last few games Webb actually got in the game for were bc either ponder got hurt or played so bad that they benched him for Webb.... He didn't play a whole lot, but he did move the ball relatively better than Ponder did when He was in the game...

    Specifically, Detroit, NO, Washington, and Chicago.... Granted all this is speculation... But I just don't see Ponder as the answer.. Hopefully I'm wrong...
    I don't believe (although I could be wrong) that Ponder was ever benched because of play. He was benched because of a concussion... And to be fair, the backup usually does have some immediate success when put into a game in relief - mostly because the other team has not necessarily prepared for them. We saw that particular effect quite a bit with Tarvaris.

    You are correct though, when Ponder would scramble he would tuck and run, whereas Webb constantly looks to throw the ball. The end effect ends up being about the same though.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    Starting to get back to the old PPO. Love it.

    I think Ponder will be an average QB in the NFL... his style is sorta reminiscent of Jeff Garcia and I'm guessing his career will be too.
    A Tommy Kramer mentality in a Steve Dils body.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleedpurple View Post
    I did some quick and dirty analysis and here's what it shows... Although Spielman can't be solely held accountable for this ridiculous draft history he did have a part in it.....

    Spielman came in 2007 and in that time out of 36 draft picks, he's selected 11 starters. 1 is not on the team anymore, and 2 are starting due to injury.

    1. AP (2007)
    2. Sid Rice (2007) - No longer with team
    3. Brian Robison (2007)
    4. John Sullivan (2008)
    5. Percy Harvin (2009)
    6. Phil Loadholt (2009)
    7. Jamarca Sanford (2009) - Questionable starter
    8. Chris Cook (2010)
    9. Christian Ponder (2011)
    10. Kyle Rudolph (2011)
    11. Mistral Raymond (2011) - Shouldn't be starting

    3 picks not included in above total went toward Jaren Allen in 2008.

    Additionally, 8 of those 36 are consistent contributors on the team.

    1. Letroy Guion (2008) - may start
    2. Asher Allen (2009)
    3. Jasper Brinkley (2009) - might start this year
    4. Toby Gerhart (2010)
    5. Everson Griffen (2010)
    6. Joe Webb (2010)
    7. Christian Ballard (2011)
    8. Brandon Burton (2011)

    Lastly, and probably more troubling, there is exactly two starters and possibly four potential starters were drafted by us past the fourth round.

    if you take away the no-brainer stars and potential stars by Spielman and Company such as Adrian Peterson, Percy Harvin, Kyle Rudolph (man, I thought there would be more) it gets worse... I like Ponder, but he's far from a potential star and many think Joe Webb is a better option at QB..

    Here is a breakdown by position
    4 Quarter Backs - 2 have potential 50%
    3 Offensive Tackles - 1 starter 33%
    2 Centers - 1 starter 50%
    2 Running Backs - both good 100%
    2 Tight Ends - Both good 100%
    6 Wide Receivers - 2 starters 1 lost to FA 17%

    4 Defensive Ends - 3 are good 75%
    4 Corner Backs - 1 is competent 25% (asher allen sucks sorry!!)
    1 Defensive Tackles - Guion gets his chance --%
    5 Linebackers - 1 starter 25% 1 converted to FB
    3 Safetys - 1 starter all are bad 33%

    all in all, basically Spielman knows how to draft RB's, TE's and DE's. The remaining positions he has sucked balls at....

    Bottom line, along with poor coaching this is how a team goes 3-13.
    Good stuff my friend, but another metric (way to analyze a pick) isn't so much that they are a starter, but do they rotate in and out.

    Other than QB and OL, no other position has a "Designated" starter. All other positions rotate based on situation.

    If you look at it in that light, except for the 2007 fiasco, Ricky boy hasn't done that bad a job. Truth be told, as I did once, if you compare his picks vs other teams, he is actually a bit better than alot of teams people perceive to be "Good" at the draft.

    Having said that.....My perception.

    2011 1 1 12 12 Christian Ponder QB Starter
    2 2 11 43 Kyle Rudolph TE Rotated last year. Will start this year
    3 4 9 106 Christian Ballard DT Rotated.
    4 5 8 139 Brandon Burton DB Rotated
    5 6 3 168 Demarcus Love G Jury still out
    6 6 5 170 Mistral Raymond DB Rotated. Could be a starter this year
    7 6 7 172 Brandon Fusco C Jury still out
    8 6 35 200 Ross Homan LB Jury still out
    9 7 12 215 D'Aundre Reed DE Jury still out
    10 7 33 236 Stephen Burton WR Rotated. Could see increased role this year
    2010 1 2 2 34 Chris Cook DB Starter
    2 2 19 51 Toby Gerhart RB Started when AD went down. Could start on most teams. Rotates.
    3 4 2 100 Everson Griffin DE Rotates. Absolute stud. He's a gunner on ST's for goodness sake. A DE. A gunner
    4 5 30 161 Chris DeGeare G Jury still out. Has rotated in.
    5 5 36 167 Nathan Triplett LB Jury still out. Has rotated in.
    6 6 30 199 Joe Webb QB Has started. Nice option as backup.
    7 7 7 214 Mickey Shuler TE Has rotated. Could see increased role this year
    8 7 30 237 Ryan D'Imperio LB Who knows. Got playing time under a O-coord who says he doesn't use FB's.
    2009 1 1 22 22 Percy Harvin WR Starter
    2 2 22 54 Phil Loadholt T Starter
    3 3 22 86 Asher Allen DB Started and then, turned into a head case.
    4 5 14 150 Jasper Brinkley LB Started, rotated and will/could be MLB starter this year.
    5 7 22 231 Jamarca Sanford DB Started. Could still be starter. Has rotated.
    2008 1 2 12 43 Tyrell Johnson DB Started. Rotated. Head case.
    2 5 2 137 John David Booty QB Bust. Happens with Qb's.
    3 5 17 152 Letroy Guion DT Started. Rotated. Will see increased role this year.
    4 6 21 187 John Sullivan C Starter. Proved a lot of you fans wrong.
    5 6 27 193 Jaymar Johnson WR Can't figure this cat out. Bust.
    2007 1 1 7 7 Adrian Peterson RB Starter
    2 2 12 44 Sidney Rice WR Starter
    3 3 8 72 Marcus McCauley DB Starter. Turned into headcase.
    4 4 3 102 Brian Robison DE Starter. Proved me wrong.
    5 5 9 146 Aundrae Allison WR Head case.
    6 6 2 176 Rufus Alexander LB Injury took him out before we could find out.
    7 7 7 217 Tyler Thigpen QB Starter for other teams.
    8 7 23 233 Chandler Williams WR Bust.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #68
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Just because 11 of them happen to be starting, doesn't mean they're good proven players. It simply means they're starting because that's the best we have at that position.

    Of those 11, how many would you claim are good, proven starters? I'd say 5-6.
    A good way to look at is to see how many leave our team and actually get picked up by other teams.

    Other than Rufus (he had a career ender) everyone has landed some place else. A few were then cut and a few did make it with those teams.

    Long story short, even the ones that landed someplace else and were cut, showed enough promise for another team to give them a shot so it could be said that the talent was there. The Head just got in the way, as is the case with cats like AA and McCauley.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #69
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    Marr,
    Just because a player started for us at one point doesn't make our decision to draft them a good one. There are several players on our roster that other teams won't sniff.

    Just look at our DB situation. How many did we let go of. How many have been signed by other teams. We have started some terrible players, which makes them terrible draft picks.

    Your love for Griffen is unfounded. Yes he has straight line speed but he is terrible in space and I hope the LB experiment ends soon.

    Also you neglected to mention the impact some of these draft picks had on the franchise. Take the idiotic decision to trade up and draft a damn back up running back. Now what was the name of that Running back that Houston drafted with the pick we moved up from....Ben Tate.
    Last edited by kevoncox; 04-22-2012 at 09:09 AM.

  10. #70
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Marr,
    Just because a player started for us at one point doesn't make our decision to draft them a good one. There are several players on our roster that other teams won't sniff.

    Just look at our DB situation. How many did we let go of. How many have been signed by other teams. We have started some terrible players, which makes them terrible draft picks.

    Your love for Griffen is unfounded. Yes he has straight line speed but he is terrible in space and I hope the LB experiment ends soon.

    Also you neglected to mention the impact some of these draft picks had on the franchise. Take the idiotic decision to trade up and draft a damn back up running back. Now what was the name of that Running back that Houston drafted with the pick we moved up from....Ben Tate.
    How do you think Tate would work in our scheme?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree that we make some bone headed moves, but for the most part the players we draft fit our scheme and contribute, in most cases right away. Heck, truth of the matter is, you guys are very very very quick to judge how good a player is, when in most cases he wouldn't even be on the field.

    I completely disagree with you on Griff and space. I think my assessment will bear me out this year and you will come around to my way of thinking. That is, if they use him the right way.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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