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  1. #31
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1096293
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096291
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1096253
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096248
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1096236
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096224

    Are you saying that he didn't grasp any of the WCO concepts in that 4 months?
    Is that really a reach considering TJ didn't after 5 years?

    What Thigggy brings is WCO experience, not necessarily the Vikings brand
    .

    What was the Vikings brand is no longer the Vikings brand so the point is irrelevant. Musgrave has said the terminology will be different, the personnel packages will be different and you have to know they will be teaching them different nuances of offense than the last group did.

    Truth of the matter is, the only other candidates that have more knowledge of the system are:

    Webb
    Ponder
    Bomar
    They don't know the system. If the system was a carbon copy they would have already had the playbooks that were just handed out because only the cover would have changed. Come on my friend you are better than to believe we would buy into that.

    Rationale behind that is because they are the only ones our staff has talked to.
    If nothing has changed then the players could get the playbook and have conversations with the rest of the players and get anything they need to know.


    Again, for this discussion, I am just looking for a cat who has experience in the scheme my friend.
    You, I or any other rube in the world really have zero clue as to the composition of the playbook or the scheme.

    WOW. What did you say yesterday....."Thanks for playing"........HAHAHAHA.
    You gotta know when to fold em.:laugh:
    You've been hanging around or good friend bleed to long. I didn't say they knew the system.

    I said they they had the most knowledge of what the system is right now.

    The candidates I listed, that I found interesting, had time in one variant or another of the WCO scheme, which Thiggyyy is one.

    The Noodle is a good example. He had lots of experience in the WCO and picked our varaint up pretty quickly. Assumption on my part is that the cats like Thiggyyy would pick it up quicker than a cat who hadn't played in any variant of the scheme.

    (On a side note: No bleed. I'm not saying Thiigggyyy is as good as the Noodle. LOL)
    I thought it was pretty well known that our variant of the WCO, and what Favre ran in GB is nearly identical. The terminology is very similar, the plays are very similar.

    In fact, Favre had 18 years of experience in the WCO. THipgen had 4 months. You're comparason of Favre's ability to adapt to a similar scheme he just left, and Thigpens ability to help Ponder learn a scheme he didn't really know himself literally had me laughing out loud. Now people are looking, Databases aren't supposed to have a purple background.
    Let me try a different box of crayons.........Thigpen has been in a variant of the WCO his whole career my friend. Not just for 4 months.

    Interesting study to look at how Coach Coryell and Coach Walsh's coaching tree's have spread down throughout the league and how they impact the game to this day.
    Ah, well then,

    Chan Gailey, Chiefs OC for 2008. Lasted 3 games, demoted.
    Todd Haley has called the plays and ran the offense. He had OC's come and go over that time, nobody stuck. Guess what, the Chiefs didn't run a west coast offense. Just because someone somewhere worked with Walsh doesn't mean his scheme carried on.

    Every offense in the known world has some part of WCO in it. That doesn'tmake them all the same, or even similar.

    If you think four months of running plays with the practice squad in practice equates to an understanding of the WCO.. well, Well I just don't have anything to say to that.
    Nope, your the one who thinks its four months.

    Obviously you don't know about guys like Dick Jauron. Interesting tree. He comes from several teams that used/ran the WCO, ran it himself a couple of times and is known to be the guy who can beat it with his 4-3 defenses.

    Bill Parcells. Sure he hacked on Walsh's version, but he, and most of his tree run the Coryell variant. That is until Bellicheat started to move towards the Walsh variant this year the way he shit canned Moss and started to use short/fast WR's in the dink dunk mode along with alot of 2-2 and 2-3 sets.

    Quick question, why did the Phins bring in Thigggyyyy? Surely it wasn't because he fit some other kind of scheme.

    Holmgren even gave Mangeneous a chance to run the Walsh variant because of his experience with the Coryell variant and how he did with the Noodle.

    Long story short, since he was drafted, he has been in a variant of the WCO.

    Again, the study of Coryell and Walsh's coaching tree's are very very interesting.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #32
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096312
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1096293
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096291
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1096253
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096248
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1096236
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096224

    Are you saying that he didn't grasp any of the WCO concepts in that 4 months?
    Is that really a reach considering TJ didn't after 5 years?

    What Thigggy brings is WCO experience, not necessarily the Vikings brand
    .

    What was the Vikings brand is no longer the Vikings brand so the point is irrelevant. Musgrave has said the terminology will be different, the personnel packages will be different and you have to know they will be teaching them different nuances of offense than the last group did.

    Truth of the matter is, the only other candidates that have more knowledge of the system are:

    Webb
    Ponder
    Bomar
    They don't know the system. If the system was a carbon copy they would have already had the playbooks that were just handed out because only the cover would have changed. Come on my friend you are better than to believe we would buy into that.

    Rationale behind that is because they are the only ones our staff has talked to.
    If nothing has changed then the players could get the playbook and have conversations with the rest of the players and get anything they need to know.


    Again, for this discussion, I am just looking for a cat who has experience in the scheme my friend.
    You, I or any other rube in the world really have zero clue as to the composition of the playbook or the scheme.

    WOW. What did you say yesterday....."Thanks for playing"........HAHAHAHA.
    You gotta know when to fold em.:laugh:
    You've been hanging around or good friend bleed to long. I didn't say they knew the system.

    I said they they had the most knowledge of what the system is right now.

    The candidates I listed, that I found interesting, had time in one variant or another of the WCO scheme, which Thiggyyy is one.

    The Noodle is a good example. He had lots of experience in the WCO and picked our varaint up pretty quickly. Assumption on my part is that the cats like Thiggyyy would pick it up quicker than a cat who hadn't played in any variant of the scheme.

    (On a side note: No bleed. I'm not saying Thiigggyyy is as good as the Noodle. LOL)
    I thought it was pretty well known that our variant of the WCO, and what Favre ran in GB is nearly identical. The terminology is very similar, the plays are very similar.

    In fact, Favre had 18 years of experience in the WCO. THipgen had 4 months. You're comparason of Favre's ability to adapt to a similar scheme he just left, and Thigpens ability to help Ponder learn a scheme he didn't really know himself literally had me laughing out loud. Now people are looking, Databases aren't supposed to have a purple background.
    Let me try a different box of crayons.........Thigpen has been in a variant of the WCO his whole career my friend. Not just for 4 months.

    Interesting study to look at how Coach Coryell and Coach Walsh's coaching tree's have spread down throughout the league and how they impact the game to this day.
    Ah, well then,

    Chan Gailey, Chiefs OC for 2008. Lasted 3 games, demoted.
    Todd Haley has called the plays and ran the offense. He had OC's come and go over that time, nobody stuck. Guess what, the Chiefs didn't run a west coast offense. Just because someone somewhere worked with Walsh doesn't mean his scheme carried on.

    Every offense in the known world has some part of WCO in it. That doesn'tmake them all the same, or even similar.

    If you think four months of running plays with the practice squad in practice equates to an understanding of the WCO.. well, Well I just don't have anything to say to that.
    Nope, your the one who thinks its four months.

    Obviously you don't know about guys like Dick Jauron. Interesting tree. He comes from several teams that used/ran the WCO, ran it himself a couple of times and is known to be the guy who can beat it with his 4-3 defenses.

    Bill Parcells. Sure he hacked on Walsh's version, but he, and most of his tree run the Coryell variant. That is until Bellicheat started to move towards the Walsh variant this year the way he shit canned Moss and started to use short/fast WR's in the dink dunk mode along with alot of 2-2 and 2-3 sets.

    Quick question, why did the Phins bring in Thigggyyyy? Surely it wasn't because he fit some other kind of scheme.

    Holmgren even gave Mangeneous a chance to run the Walsh variant because of his experience with the Coryell variant and how he did with the Noodle.

    Long story short, since he was drafted, he has been in a variant of the WCO.

    Again, the study of Coryell and Walsh's coaching tree's are very very interesting.
    So what.

    Thigpen wasn't brought in to mentor Henne, Thigpen was brought in as a #3 QB because they eneded a #3 QB.

    THey had Pennington at the time, who could do a more than adaquate job of playing in place of HEnne.

  3. #33
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096213
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1096195
    “Every guy doesn’t want to come in and mentor a young quarterback. Most want to come in and be the face of the franchise. We’re hoping that one of the young guys will be our leader for years to come,” Frazier said.
    Which is why the McNugget and Kolb talk is rubbish. If they bring in a vet they want a guy who is willing to hold a clipboard and play only if and when they are needed.That might mean they want him to compete to start on day one and if he wins he will play, but as soon as a young guy is ready to take over they get the nod and the vet gets the bench. Not many guys willing to do that.
    Excellent post my friend.......

    Lets look at the QB's that are available and the criteria.

    a. They aren't going to want to trade for a guy. Be a waste of a pick IMHO so the Kolb/McNabb talk is out unless they are willing to wait for McNabb to be released outright by the Deadskins. The question then is, will McNabb and his Agent say yes to being a backup.

    b. Leaves us the following list of FA's.

    Peyton Manning (IND) - Not gonna happen
    Michael Vick (PHI) - Not gonna happen
    Seneca Wallace (CLE) - Interesting. He's been a backup for along time and can win if needed.
    Matt Hasselbeck (SEA) - Not gonna happen. Wants to be a starter.
    Matt Moore (CAR) - Interesting option. Not the proven vet most would want though.
    Alex Smith (SF) - Probably gonna stay with the 49rs.
    Matt Leinart (HOU) - BUST. Don't need him.
    Marc Bulger (BAL) - Will want to be a starter someplace.
    Todd Collins (CHI) - Interesting. Same catagory as Wallace.
    Caleb Hanie (CHI) - ??
    Brady Quinn (DEN) - BUST
    Drew Stanton (DET) - Same caliber as Bomar.
    Trent Edwards (JAC) - Same caliber as Bomar.
    Luke McCown (JAC) - Probably a bit better than Bomar.
    Brodie Croyle (KC) - Same caliber as Bomar.
    Chad Pennington (MIA) - Arm is gone.
    Tyler Thigpen (MIA) - Interesting option. Knows the system. Would want to be starter though.
    Tarvaris Jackson (MIN) - Everyone knows my opinion here. Probably a bad fit though as he will want to push for the starters job.
    Jim Sorgi (NYG) - Intersting option. Not a pure WCO QB though.
    Kellen Clemens (NYJ) - Same as Bomar/Thigpen.
    Kyle Boller (OAK) - Intersting option.
    Bruce Gradkowski (OAK) - Interesting option. Might want to push to be the starter.
    Dennis Dixon (PIT)- Interesting option
    Billy Volek (SD) - Interesting Option
    Troy Smith (SF) - He did come in for the 49'rs instead of Carr.
    Kerry Collins (TEN) - Probably gonna stay with the Titans but an interesting option.
    Rex Grossman (WAS) - Just say no.


    Long story short, I still think Bomar is the guy that could help "Teach" him the "Nuances" of being a pro. He is still under contract, and most importantly, knows how the Vikes organization runs.


    On a side note, isn't it nice to have the ole News Hound back on the job?
    “If we went that route, we’d probably want a guy that could compete to start,” Frazier said on PFT Live Tuesday. ”I don’t know if I’d want a ‘coach-type’ guy.”
    Childress must have rubbed off on you!
    Why not bring in someone besides scrubs to compete. If Ponder wins the job, fine. If not he sits and learns for a year or two.
    That strategy gets you the best team you can have instead of always looking for never weres or never will be type players.

    I think the better vets would not be afraid of the competition and Ponder will improve for the experience.
    Ponder is the long term future. We should have him for many years if he is the franchise.

    Bringing in a douche bag in a so called fake QB competition would be detrimental to Ponders development.

    Bring in someone with talent and let the chips fall where they may.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  4. #34
    midgensa's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    There are definitely plenty of solid veterans out there they can bring in and not COMPETE with Ponder, which is the right play. Of course that eliminates Palmer, McNabb and Hasselbeck right away.

    Seneca Wallace, Matt Moore, Todd Collins, Brodie Coyle, Trent Edwards, Jim Sorgi, Kellen Clemens, Kyle Boller, Billy Volek, Troy Smith, David Carr, etc. would all be suitable options if and when they are made available.

  5. #35
    midgensa's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1096330
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096213
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1096195
    “Every guy doesn’t want to come in and mentor a young quarterback. Most want to come in and be the face of the franchise. We’re hoping that one of the young guys will be our leader for years to come,” Frazier said.
    Which is why the McNugget and Kolb talk is rubbish. If they bring in a vet they want a guy who is willing to hold a clipboard and play only if and when they are needed.That might mean they want him to compete to start on day one and if he wins he will play, but as soon as a young guy is ready to take over they get the nod and the vet gets the bench. Not many guys willing to do that.
    Excellent post my friend.......

    Lets look at the QB's that are available and the criteria.

    a. They aren't going to want to trade for a guy. Be a waste of a pick IMHO so the Kolb/McNabb talk is out unless they are willing to wait for McNabb to be released outright by the Deadskins. The question then is, will McNabb and his Agent say yes to being a backup.

    b. Leaves us the following list of FA's.

    Peyton Manning (IND) - Not gonna happen
    Michael Vick (PHI) - Not gonna happen
    Seneca Wallace (CLE) - Interesting. He's been a backup for along time and can win if needed.
    Matt Hasselbeck (SEA) - Not gonna happen. Wants to be a starter.
    Matt Moore (CAR) - Interesting option. Not the proven vet most would want though.
    Alex Smith (SF) - Probably gonna stay with the 49rs.
    Matt Leinart (HOU) - BUST. Don't need him.
    Marc Bulger (BAL) - Will want to be a starter someplace.
    Todd Collins (CHI) - Interesting. Same catagory as Wallace.
    Caleb Hanie (CHI) - ??
    Brady Quinn (DEN) - BUST
    Drew Stanton (DET) - Same caliber as Bomar.
    Trent Edwards (JAC) - Same caliber as Bomar.
    Luke McCown (JAC) - Probably a bit better than Bomar.
    Brodie Croyle (KC) - Same caliber as Bomar.
    Chad Pennington (MIA) - Arm is gone.
    Tyler Thigpen (MIA) - Interesting option. Knows the system. Would want to be starter though.
    Tarvaris Jackson (MIN) - Everyone knows my opinion here. Probably a bad fit though as he will want to push for the starters job.
    Jim Sorgi (NYG) - Intersting option. Not a pure WCO QB though.
    Kellen Clemens (NYJ) - Same as Bomar/Thigpen.
    Kyle Boller (OAK) - Intersting option.
    Bruce Gradkowski (OAK) - Interesting option. Might want to push to be the starter.
    Dennis Dixon (PIT)- Interesting option
    Billy Volek (SD) - Interesting Option
    Troy Smith (SF) - He did come in for the 49'rs instead of Carr.
    Kerry Collins (TEN) - Probably gonna stay with the Titans but an interesting option.
    Rex Grossman (WAS) - Just say no.


    Long story short, I still think Bomar is the guy that could help "Teach" him the "Nuances" of being a pro. He is still under contract, and most importantly, knows how the Vikes organization runs.


    On a side note, isn't it nice to have the ole News Hound back on the job?
    “If we went that route, we’d probably want a guy that could compete to start,” Frazier said on PFT Live Tuesday. ”I don’t know if I’d want a ‘coach-type’ guy.”
    Childress must have rubbed off on you!
    Why not bring in someone besides scrubs to compete. If Ponder wins the job, fine. If not he sits and learns for a year or two.
    That strategy gets you the best team you can have instead of always looking for never weres or never will be type players.

    I think the better vets would not be afraid of the competition and Ponder will improve for the experience.
    Ponder is the long term future. We should have him for many years if he is the franchise.

    Bringing in a douche bag in a so called fake QB competition would be detrimental to Ponders development.

    Bring in someone with talent and let the chips fall where they may.
    The biggest problem here is the veteran. If you bring in a vet that has a legit shot to start, he is going to want to start. McNabb won't want to compete, Hasselbeck won't want to compete, Gradkowski likely will not want to compete, Bulger likely will not want to "compete" with a rook.

    You have to bring in a backup. If he is lights out and Ponder isn't, which is very possible, then it is a compete spot. But you can't bring someone in to "compete" who feels they have the talent to start (or else they just go somewhere else) ... veterans want to know their role coming in.

  6. #36
    b_sandhar_29 is offline Starter
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    My opinion in all honesty is you want to bring in 2 types of QBs... Someone who will compete and someone who will "hold the clipboard" Matt Moore is someone you bring in to challenge ponder and I like Volek as a proven vet who's going to teach these young guys.

    As for Joe Webb, he could compete at QB or we can convert him to WR. West coast offense has a lot to do with putting your best athletes in space and letting them run after the catch. Webb has been praised for his athleticism and I would think that Bill Musgrave will probably have a lot of flexibility in where he puts Joe Webb.
    None

  7. #37
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1096330
    Childress must have rubbed off on you!
    You crack me up. :laugh:

    Why not bring in someone besides scrubs to compete. If Ponder wins the job, fine. If not he sits and learns for a year or two.
    That strategy gets you the best team you can have instead of always looking for never weres or never will be type players.

    I think the better vets would not be afraid of the competition and Ponder will improve for the experience.
    Ponder is the long term future. We should have him for many years if he is the franchise.

    Bringing in a douche bag in a so called fake QB competition would be detrimental to Ponders development.

    Bring in someone with talent and let the chips fall where they may.
    The why has nothing to do with what is the best option.

    My point in all of this has a direct correlation to the number of vets that need to be resigned on this team. At somepoint the Ownership Group is gonna say, the checkbook is locked/empty.

    If getting a top tier vet in here who could start, meant we couldn't resign Rice (insert Chad, AD, EJ, etc), then I would say go with the young kid and sign a lesser value vet.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #38
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1096336
    There are definitely plenty of solid veterans out there they can bring in and not COMPETE with Ponder, which is the right play. Of course that eliminates Palmer, McNabb and Hasselbeck right away.

    Seneca Wallace, Matt Moore, Todd Collins, Brodie Coyle, Trent Edwards, Jim Sorgi, Kellen Clemens, Kyle Boller, Billy Volek, Troy Smith, David Carr, etc. would all be suitable options if and when they are made available.
    Good stuff Midg.

    Just to clarify, I'm not saying we shouldn't bring someone in to compete or atleast be there to start if we need him, I'm just saying that I wouldn't spend alot of money on a cat if it meant we would loose the opportunity to resign (or extend) a few of our key vets.

    The last thing we need is to have two high priced QB's and AD sitting there on the bench stewing about not getting his extension.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #39
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096213
    Long story short, I still think Bomar is the guy that could help "Teach" him the "Nuances" of being a pro. He is still under contract, and most importantly, knows how the Vikes organization runs.
    LOL! Marr, your totally losing it.

    1. Bomar hasn't taken a single snap or thrown a ball against a regular season opponent ever in his NFL career. What is he going to teach him? How to hold a clipboard?

    He was previously waived by the Giants, then re-signed to their practice squad where he remained. The Vikings then signed Bomar off the Giants practice squad.

    1. What nuances of being a pro does he know?

    2. Bomar knows very, very little if anything about how the Vikings organization runs. He was first signed to the Vikings PRACTICE squad on Dec. 23, 2010. 10 days before the end of the season. How much do you think he learned or wanted to learn in less than 10 day?

    Bomar is not, I repeat not, a good veteran presence for Ponder to learn from.

    Again, I doubt & would be highly surprised if the Vikings trade for a QB & waste future draft picks if they think Ponder is close to being ready.

    Again, watch for them to sign one off the FA pool that will compete for the starting job this year & won't mind if that role happens to be as backup this year.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #40
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    Re: Vikings want veteran to compete w/ Ponder

    [quote="singersp" #1096403]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1096213
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1096195
    Long story short, I still think Bomar is the guy that could help "Teach" him the "Nuances" of being a pro. He is still under contract, and most importantly, knows how the Vikes organization runs.
    LOL! Marr, your totally losing it.

    1. Bomar hasn't taken a single snap or thrown a ball against a regular season opponent ever in his NFL career. What is he going to teach him? How to hold a clipboard?

    He was previously waived by the Giants, then re-signed to their practice squad where he remained. The Vikings then signed Bomar off the Giants practice squad.

    1. What nuances of being a pro does he know?

    2. Bomar knows very, very little if anything about how the Vikings organization runs. He was first signed to the Vikings PRACTICE squad on Dec. 23, 2010. 10 days before the end of the season. How much do you think he learned or wanted to learn in less than 10 day?

    Bomar is not, I repeat not, a good veteran presence for Ponder to learn from.

    Again, I doubt & would be highly surprised if the Vikings trade for a QB & waste future draft picks if they think Ponder is close to being ready.

    Again, watch for them to sign one off the FA pool that will compete for the starting job this year & won't mind if that role happens to be as backup this year.
    Marty believes the Vikings are the "test track" of the NFL.

    If you suck, or are unproven, come to the Vikings! We'll give you five years of uncontested playing time. if you're good, we won't bother re-signing you, and you'll be free to explore other options!

    practice squad player! You want a shot at teaching a rook? Here you go. Crap safeties we draft, we won't pressure you to play well. Tahi! Have at it, even though you bring nothing to the table. Everyone is welcome here. (Unless you were at any point a Packer, the GTFO!)

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