Thread: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

I think this next year will be pivotal in showing just how the organization will function. With Frazier seemingly having less control than Childress had post extension it will be interesting to see how Spielman emerges and if he takes a stronger role in the organization.

Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090825

Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090824

The only thing Edwards being passed over should tell you is that we have reached a point where we have a damn good Roster.

Are you high?

We do have a good roster. I know it's all doom and gloom but it's really not that bad.

QB - 0- Lack...will address
RB - 10- Best in Business
FB - 5 - Lack
TE - 8 - Easily top 10 in the game
WR - 8 - 2 potential break out stars. Adding a speedster would be great
OL - 8 - OTs that play to the level of their talent
OG - 8 -
C - 6 - Needs to be replaced

DE - 8 - Top 3 in business pair with another high motor guy
DT - 8 - Top 5 in business paired with a decent DT in Kennedy
LB - 8 - Best 4-3 OLB and a pretty good MLB
CB - 8 - Best depth in the NFL.
S - 6 - Not a fan needs to be reworked.

We have a damn good roster and it's time people realize it. Our defense was a top 8 defense last year with an anemic offense. If we get a stable QB to play within the system and our WR Rice to return to form...we will be a damn good team again. The right draft this year really will do wonders.

1ST round Julio Jones
2nd Round Mallet/Ponder
4th Kenrick Ellis (Hampton U Marr, I've heard good things)

Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090968

Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090825

Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090824

The only thing Edwards being passed over should tell you is that we have reached a point where we have a damn good Roster.

Are you high?

We do have a good roster. I know it's all doom and gloom but it's really not that bad.

QB - 0- Lack...will address
RB - 10- Best in Business
FB - 5 - Lack
TE - 8 - Easily top 10 in the game
WR - 8 - 2 potential break out stars. Adding a speedster would be great
OL - 8 - OTs that play to the level of their talent
OG - 8 -
C - 6 - Needs to be replaced

DE - 8 - Top 3 in business pair with another high motor guy
DT - 8 - Top 5 in business paired with a decent DT in Kennedy
LB - 8 - Best 4-3 OLB and a pretty good MLB
CB - 8 - Best depth in the NFL.
S - 6 - Not a fan needs to be reworked.

We have a damn good roster and it's time people realize it. Our defense was a top 8 defense last year with an anemic offense. If we get a stable QB to play within the system and our WR Rice to return to form...we will be a damn good team again. The right draft this year really will do wonders.

1ST round Julio Jones
2nd Round Mallet/Ponder
4th Kenrick Ellis (Hampton U Marr, I've heard good things)

You're not taking into account players that probalby will be leaving here.

Also, you grossly overestimate our defense. Our D was pretty middle of the road last season, and isn't getting better yet.

QB: Huge question mark. Webb isn't ready to be a full-time starter
RB: Set here
FB: Nobody
OL: Pretty damn bad. We'll see how guys come back from injuries
TE: Shank's been on and off last season, gotta pick it back up and we'll be ok
WR: Depends on the CBA and Rice. If they reduce RFA's to 4 years service, Rice is a UFA. Buh-bye rice. That leaves us with Harvin, Berrian, Cam and Lewis *Barf*

DE: I don't expect Ray to play most of teh season, if at all, Allen is Allen, Robison is a situational guy at best
DT: Pat's gone, KW is a ? with the suspension issue. JK/Guion make decent backups, but starters? We'll see.
LB: Leber's probably gone, EJ and Greenway are good, Brinkley's good, but other than that, who? Erin? Hasn't shown anything as a LB yet.
CB: Antoine keeps regressing, Griffin has two torn ACL's, I don't think we'll ever fully get him back. Cook, Allen and Shepperd are the other three. Allen really needs to step it up if he wants a job next year, same with Sheppard
S: Abdullah looks decent, the rest look like crap. Madieu needs to go asap, Tyrell might be a better option, but he's no prize. Sanford has flashes, but also is vulnerable at times too.

The ONLY position we are solid at is RB and Special Teams. The rest of our team has holes all over the place.

Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090862

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090846

Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090831

Some of you(namely, only a handful) believe the coaches refuse to talk contract with some guys like Rice/Edwards (until of course, the EVIDENCE came out that they were talking with Rice), now we're not signing guys, just because?

You had me until that part.

Coaches don't talk contract. They tell Bryz/Spielman they want to retain the player and then Bryz tries to get a deal done under the spending constraints set forth by the Ownership group.

Tomato Tomatow

you know exactly what I mean

Nope, unlike you, I don't try to read between the lines. I think you mean what you type. If it doesn't make sense then I ask a question.

This is one of those cases.

Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090970

Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090968

Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090825

Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090824

The only thing Edwards being passed over should tell you is that we have reached a point where we have a damn good Roster.

Are you high?

We do have a good roster. I know it's all doom and gloom but it's really not that bad.

QB - 0- Lack...will address
RB - 10- Best in Business
FB - 5 - Lack
TE - 8 - Easily top 10 in the game
WR - 8 - 2 potential break out stars. Adding a speedster would be great
OL - 8 - OTs that play to the level of their talent
OG - 8 -
C - 6 - Needs to be replaced

DE - 8 - Top 3 in business pair with another high motor guy
DT - 8 - Top 5 in business paired with a decent DT in Kennedy
LB - 8 - Best 4-3 OLB and a pretty good MLB
CB - 8 - Best depth in the NFL.
S - 6 - Not a fan needs to be reworked.

We have a damn good roster and it's time people realize it. Our defense was a top 8 defense last year with an anemic offense. If we get a stable QB to play within the system and our WR Rice to return to form...we will be a damn good team again. The right draft this year really will do wonders.

1ST round Julio Jones
2nd Round Mallet/Ponder
4th Kenrick Ellis (Hampton U Marr, I've heard good things)

You're not taking into account players that probalby will be leaving here.

Also, you grossly overestimate our defense. Our D was pretty middle of the road last season, and isn't getting better yet.

QB: Huge question mark. Webb isn't ready to be a full-time starter
RB: Set here
FB: Nobody
OL: Pretty damn bad. We'll see how guys come back from injuries
TE: Shank's been on and off last season, gotta pick it back up and we'll be ok
WR: Depends on the CBA and Rice. If they reduce RFA's to 4 years service, Rice is a UFA. Buh-bye rice. That leaves us with Harvin, Berrian, Cam and Lewis *Barf*

DE: I don't expect Ray to play most of teh season, if at all, Allen is Allen, Robison is a situational guy at best
DT: Pat's gone, KW is a ? with the suspension issue. JK/Guion make decent backups, but starters? We'll see.
LB: Leber's probably gone, EJ and Greenway are good, Brinkley's good, but other than that, who? Erin? Hasn't shown anything as a LB yet.
CB: Antoine keeps regressing, Griffin has two torn ACL's, I don't think we'll ever fully get him back. Cook, Allen and Shepperd are the other three. Allen really needs to step it up if he wants a job next year, same with Sheppard
S: Abdullah looks decent, the rest look like crap. Madieu needs to go asap, Tyrell might be a better option, but he's no prize. Sanford has flashes, but also is vulnerable at times too.

The ONLY position we are solid at is RB and Special Teams. The rest of our team has holes all over the place.

Some good stuff in there guys......

Couple of comments.....

Erin stepped in and gave us some very nice reps last year. I think he is ready to start.

Sanford and Tyrell are young. They make mistakes. Quit trying to grade them based on their learning curve.

DL. Evans and JK are crap. Even though our defense was rated in the top 10 last year it took a significant drop with respect to its ability to stop the run (second year in a row it has looked bad) and will continue to decline this year unless we over haul the DT position.

FB. You don't need one. Quit trying to fix a position that ins't used anymore for anything other than blocking especially when you have a 1 cut back that doesn't follow blockers.

4th Kenrick Ellis (Hampton U Marr, I've heard good things)

He has a cult following here in Tidewater. Big deal when he transfered. Only issue I see with him is related to his size. Most boards have him at 280 with a few having him at 330ish.

I think, based on how raw he is, a 4th round grade is pretty fair. I, on the other hand think a kid like Paea is more in line with what we are looking for.

[quote="Purple Floyd" #1090865]

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090845

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090729

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090723

Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090709

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090706

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090687

Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090665

1: Ray was tendered with a 1st round tender. That meant he received either $2.5 million or $2.7 million - depending upon whom you ask.

That's a pretty fair jump from his salary of $1.01 million from'09.

Was it the $60 million over 6 years with $35 million guaranteed that he dreamed of? No. And, truthfully, I just made those numbers up. Fact is, it was a lot LESS than he hoped...

Caine

A few contracts for players at the same position as Ray. By they way, using the only stat you seem to think DE's should be graded by, Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.

Yup, I can see that Ray is getting what he deserves.

...but that's the way the rules were written. The CBA, which governed how contracts would be structured, was struck down. That meant that NO ONE was getting big money in year 5 or even in year 6. But mostly it affected 5th year players.

You need to go back and revisit that.

There were several teams that signed players to contracts. What didn't happen was teams didn't pursue FA's that were tendered.

Yeah the 9ers overpaid to get Smith from Cindy but as you can see his productivity didn't equal his paycheck. That is not much different than us Signing Berrian, Wade,Williams etc to higher than value FA contracts that tied up money we could have spent elsewhere. In the end if a team wants to sign RE to a higher than value contract then I say let them and we can look for a player that gives us value equal to their productivity.

Thats exactly why I picked Smith. I remember distinctly how many on here wanted him when he was a FA and got pissed when we didn't sign him.

I think the staffs decision was the right one.

Back to Ray. I can't get access to the best stat site out there anymore cause its now pay (to much for my blood) but it used to list all the other stats for DE's, pressures, knockdowns, etc. Ray, was second in the league in those catagories two years running leading into last season.

My guess, based on those stats, he will get (to use Caines opinion) "Overpaid" a bunch by a team. Truth of the matter is, I bet alot of teams will be willing to "Overpay" him.

And the Vikings, currently lead by the Guy who was Ray's D-Coordinator, don't share that opinion. They just signed Robison to a deal and not Ray...


...wonder why?

See, it's not so much that they aren't signing people...they are. They just aren't signing everyone. And, as I've said in many previous posts, most of the guys whose contracts are up are completely replaceable.

Would I like to see Peterson inked to a long term deal? Yes...and if the NFL has a season next year, I think we'll see that happen.

Would I like Greenway locked up? Yup...but a 1 year ride on the Franchise tag won't kill him.

As for the rest.....whatever. None of them, including Ray Edwards, has stood out this past season. Maybe Ray leaves and tears it up somewhere else...

..maybe he does a Hovan and quietly produces somewhere else, but never at an elite level.

Regardless, I don't really think our FO is screwing anything up just yet. We are REBUILDING...like it or not. As such, we have to look at guys who can have an impact for a LONG time. I'm not sure why Edwards was passed over, but he was.

And that tells me something.

Caine

How in the hell can you consider tendering every player (with 3 exceptions) rebuilding?

Truth is, they aren't signing players like you contend. They signed one, and at a lowball offer equal to what a situational pass rusher would get and then they are gonna ask him to try to eat up the reps Ray is GONNA take off cause he got tendered again.

Rebuilding.....HAH.

Again.....

Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.

If Ray was replaceable they wouldn't have tendered him. Thats reality, just like this staff is cutting corners and saving money and we the fans will see the production on the field slip as well.

Sad thing in all of this, poor Leslie is being set up to be the scapegoat.

They tendered him to be able to extract either one more year out of him or to possibly get a draft pick in return for his leaving.

In the end if they reach a new CBA, the tender will probably be out the window anyway but this keeps him in their control until that is hashed out and once the terms are finalized the team will know if they have the dollars to sign him and what his value will be.

Smart move IMHO.

Agree, but it also means that the team wants to control him because he is talented.

That kindof flies in the face of what our good friend Caine is trying to convince us of.

[quote="Marrdro" #1090982]

Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090865

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090845

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090729

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090723

Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090709

Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090706

Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090687

Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090665

1: Ray was tendered with a 1st round tender. That meant he received either $2.5 million or $2.7 million - depending upon whom you ask.

That's a pretty fair jump from his salary of $1.01 million from'09.

Was it the $60 million over 6 years with $35 million guaranteed that he dreamed of? No. And, truthfully, I just made those numbers up. Fact is, it was a lot LESS than he hoped...

Caine

A few contracts for players at the same position as Ray. By they way, using the only stat you seem to think DE's should be graded by, Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.

Yup, I can see that Ray is getting what he deserves.

...but that's the way the rules were written. The CBA, which governed how contracts would be structured, was struck down. That meant that NO ONE was getting big money in year 5 or even in year 6. But mostly it affected 5th year players.

You need to go back and revisit that.

There were several teams that signed players to contracts. What didn't happen was teams didn't pursue FA's that were tendered.

Yeah the 9ers overpaid to get Smith from Cindy but as you can see his productivity didn't equal his paycheck. That is not much different than us Signing Berrian, Wade,Williams etc to higher than value FA contracts that tied up money we could have spent elsewhere. In the end if a team wants to sign RE to a higher than value contract then I say let them and we can look for a player that gives us value equal to their productivity.

Thats exactly why I picked Smith. I remember distinctly how many on here wanted him when he was a FA and got pissed when we didn't sign him.

I think the staffs decision was the right one.

Back to Ray. I can't get access to the best stat site out there anymore cause its now pay (to much for my blood) but it used to list all the other stats for DE's, pressures, knockdowns, etc. Ray, was second in the league in those catagories two years running leading into last season.

My guess, based on those stats, he will get (to use Caines opinion) "Overpaid" a bunch by a team. Truth of the matter is, I bet alot of teams will be willing to "Overpay" him.

And the Vikings, currently lead by the Guy who was Ray's D-Coordinator, don't share that opinion. They just signed Robison to a deal and not Ray...


...wonder why?

See, it's not so much that they aren't signing people...they are. They just aren't signing everyone. And, as I've said in many previous posts, most of the guys whose contracts are up are completely replaceable.

Would I like to see Peterson inked to a long term deal? Yes...and if the NFL has a season next year, I think we'll see that happen.

Would I like Greenway locked up? Yup...but a 1 year ride on the Franchise tag won't kill him.

As for the rest.....whatever. None of them, including Ray Edwards, has stood out this past season. Maybe Ray leaves and tears it up somewhere else...

..maybe he does a Hovan and quietly produces somewhere else, but never at an elite level.

Regardless, I don't really think our FO is screwing anything up just yet. We are REBUILDING...like it or not. As such, we have to look at guys who can have an impact for a LONG time. I'm not sure why Edwards was passed over, but he was.

And that tells me something.

Caine

How in the hell can you consider tendering every player (with 3 exceptions) rebuilding?

Truth is, they aren't signing players like you contend. They signed one, and at a lowball offer equal to what a situational pass rusher would get and then they are gonna ask him to try to eat up the reps Ray is GONNA take off cause he got tendered again.

Rebuilding.....HAH.

Again.....

Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.

If Ray was replaceable they wouldn't have tendered him. Thats reality, just like this staff is cutting corners and saving money and we the fans will see the production on the field slip as well.

Sad thing in all of this, poor Leslie is being set up to be the scapegoat.

They tendered him to be able to extract either one more year out of him or to possibly get a draft pick in return for his leaving.

In the end if they reach a new CBA, the tender will probably be out the window anyway but this keeps him in their control until that is hashed out and once the terms are finalized the team will know if they have the dollars to sign him and what his value will be.

Smart move IMHO.

Agree, but it also means that the team wants to control him because he is talented.

That kindof flies in the face of what our good friend Caine is trying to convince us of.

Talented or marketable? Heck the Cowboys gave at least a 1st to get Roy Williams from the Lions. I believe that he was not worth that money but the Cowboys did.

Frazier has 'good talk' with Pat Williams

There is alot of filler in this article, but Leslie's comments are pretty telling..........

Not a whole lot of info in that article.