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  1. #31
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090824
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090729
    And the Vikings, currently lead by the Guy who was Ray's D-Coordinator, don't share that opinion. They just signed Robison to a deal and not Ray...


    ...wonder why?

    See, it's not so much that they aren't signing people...they are. They just aren't signing everyone. And, as I've said in many previous posts, most of the guys whose contracts are up are completely replaceable.

    Would I like to see Peterson inked to a long term deal? Yes...and if the NFL has a season next year, I think we'll see that happen.

    Would I like Greenway locked up? Yup...but a 1 year ride on the Franchise tag won't kill him.

    As for the rest.....whatever. None of them, including Ray Edwards, has stood out this past season. Maybe Ray leaves and tears it up somewhere else...

    ..maybe he does a Hovan and quietly produces somewhere else, but never at an elite level.

    Regardless, I don't really think our FO is screwing anything up just yet. We are REBUILDING...like it or not. As such, we have to look at guys who can have an impact for a LONG time. I'm not sure why Edwards was passed over, but he was.

    And that tells me something.

    Caine
    Caine,
    You can't take BRobs signing as a declaration that they prefer him to Edwards. It's a business and sometimes a team has to go with a lessor talent because they must reduce overall cost. Edwards will demand a much bigger contract than Robison and the money saved can go else where like say......QB.

    The only thing Edwards being passed over should tell you is that we have reached a point where we have a damn good Roster. In 2005 we could resign any of our DEs for peanuts. No we have some major talent on this teams and contracts/resignings have to be handled differently. The Eagles do it all the time. They let major stars walk to play less younger talent to save cost.
    Well....maybe.

    But if Edwards had torn it up last season, don't you think the Vikings would have tagged him? Don;t you think that if they felt he was TRULY an important part of the over all puzzle that SOME attempt to sign him would have been made?

    Instead, the Vikings inked Robison.

    FWIW, teams SELDOM let "major stars" walk unless they feel confident that they can fill the hole left behind - or, at the very least, not be crippled by the loss.

    Carolina let Peppers go and STILL managed to hit 31 team sacks in '10, just like they hit in '09.

    In fact, their stat line stayed pretty close, but they dropped in over all rankings.

    If Edwards was a "major star", the Vikings would have made some offer to keep him.

    They didn't.

    Caine

  2. #32
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    To be fair, we don't know that the Vikings never made an attempt to sign him.

    We don't know what happens behind the scenes, we only find out once they're signed, or if the player/Coach speaks.

    Ray made it quite clear last year he plans to go to Free Agency, I know it's hard to believe, but it is possible that a player just doesn't want to be here. I know, shocking, that a player would rather take big bucks and play somewhere with a chance to win.

    Some of you(namely, only a handful) believe the coaches refuse to talk contract with some guys like Rice/Edwards (until of course, the EVIDENCE came out that they were talking with Rice), now we're not signing guys, just because?

  3. #33
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090831
    To be fair, we don't know that the Vikings never made an attempt to sign him.

    We don't know what happens behind the scenes, we only find out once they're signed, or if the player/Coach speaks.

    Ray made it quite clear last year he plans to go to Free Agency, I know it's hard to believe, but it is possible that a player just doesn't want to be here. I know, shocking, that a player would rather take big bucks and play somewhere with a chance to win.

    Some of you(namely, only a handful) believe the coaches refuse to talk contract with some guys like Rice/Edwards (until of course, the EVIDENCE came out that they were talking with Rice), now we're not signing guys, just because?
    You're right...we don't KNOW...but we usually hear something. Rice is an example. The Vikes reached out, he rejected. With Edwards, we've herd nothing.

    And with him being the most vocal about wanting a big contract last season, and the Vikes signing Robison to a 3 year deal, the silence seems rather deafening.

    We don't KNOW....but all signs point to "Nada".

    Caine

  4. #34
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090836
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090831
    To be fair, we don't know that the Vikings never made an attempt to sign him.

    We don't know what happens behind the scenes, we only find out once they're signed, or if the player/Coach speaks.

    Ray made it quite clear last year he plans to go to Free Agency, I know it's hard to believe, but it is possible that a player just doesn't want to be here. I know, shocking, that a player would rather take big bucks and play somewhere with a chance to win.

    Some of you(namely, only a handful) believe the coaches refuse to talk contract with some guys like Rice/Edwards (until of course, the EVIDENCE came out that they were talking with Rice), now we're not signing guys, just because?
    You're right...we don't KNOW...but we usually hear something. Rice is an example. The Vikes reached out, he rejected. With Edwards, we've herd nothing.

    And with him being the most vocal about wanting a big contract last season, and the Vikes signing Robison to a 3 year deal, the silence seems rather deafening.

    We don't KNOW....but all signs point to "Nada".

    Caine
    Yes, but he's been quite vocal about specifically not wanting to be back in Minnesota. It's entirely possible that Ray approached the FO and said "Don't bother, I'm not signing anything" I wouldn't put it past him either.

    That would explain why they offered Robison a decent sized contract. In all likelyhood, they don't expect him to play this season, he'll likely hold out if the RFA terms aren't adjusted, and if they do go back to 4 years, or even 5 years, he won't be a RFA anymore, and he'll be a UFA. He's gone.

  5. #35
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Robison signed a good contract for a backup DE, but a low one for a starter. The franchise cost of that position is probably over 15million a year. Ray, wanted top end money, but given the team he's had around him, hasn't quite earned it yet. Yeah, he had a good year, lots of pressures, but I think the Vikes expect more out of a guy who's never double teamed since KWill and Allen are regularly.

    I'm guessing that somebody must of hinted to Pat about a contract, but then his play fell off, and they changed their minds, so he didn't get what he felt was promised. In a limited roll, he can still contribute, but, we needed more from the nose so the rest of the D can do their thing.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  6. #36
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    [quote="Caine" #1090729]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090723
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090709
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090706
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090687
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090665
    1: Ray was tendered with a 1st round tender. That meant he received either $2.5 million or $2.7 million - depending upon whom you ask.

    That's a pretty fair jump from his salary of $1.01 million from'09.

    Was it the $60 million over 6 years with $35 million guaranteed that he dreamed of? No. And, truthfully, I just made those numbers up. Fact is, it was a lot LESS than he hoped...

    Caine
    A few contracts for players at the same position as Ray. By they way, using the only stat you seem to think DE's should be graded by, Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

    Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
    Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.

    Yup, I can see that Ray is getting what he deserves.

    ...but that's the way the rules were written. The CBA, which governed how contracts would be structured, was struck down. That meant that NO ONE was getting big money in year 5 or even in year 6. But mostly it affected 5th year players.
    You need to go back and revisit that.

    There were several teams that signed players to contracts. What didn't happen was teams didn't pursue FA's that were tendered.
    Yeah the 9ers overpaid to get Smith from Cindy but as you can see his productivity didn't equal his paycheck. That is not much different than us Signing Berrian, Wade,Williams etc to higher than value FA contracts that tied up money we could have spent elsewhere. In the end if a team wants to sign RE to a higher than value contract then I say let them and we can look for a player that gives us value equal to their productivity.
    Thats exactly why I picked Smith. I remember distinctly how many on here wanted him when he was a FA and got pissed when we didn't sign him.

    I think the staffs decision was the right one.

    Back to Ray. I can't get access to the best stat site out there anymore cause its now pay (to much for my blood) but it used to list all the other stats for DE's, pressures, knockdowns, etc. Ray, was second in the league in those catagories two years running leading into last season.

    My guess, based on those stats, he will get (to use Caines opinion) "Overpaid" a bunch by a team. Truth of the matter is, I bet alot of teams will be willing to "Overpay" him.
    And the Vikings, currently lead by the Guy who was Ray's D-Coordinator, don't share that opinion. They just signed Robison to a deal and not Ray...


    ...wonder why?

    See, it's not so much that they aren't signing people...they are. They just aren't signing everyone. And, as I've said in many previous posts, most of the guys whose contracts are up are completely replaceable.

    Would I like to see Peterson inked to a long term deal? Yes...and if the NFL has a season next year, I think we'll see that happen.

    Would I like Greenway locked up? Yup...but a 1 year ride on the Franchise tag won't kill him.

    As for the rest.....whatever. None of them, including Ray Edwards, has stood out this past season. Maybe Ray leaves and tears it up somewhere else...

    ..maybe he does a Hovan and quietly produces somewhere else, but never at an elite level.

    Regardless, I don't really think our FO is screwing anything up just yet. We are REBUILDING...like it or not. As such, we have to look at guys who can have an impact for a LONG time. I'm not sure why Edwards was passed over, but he was.

    And that tells me something.

    Caine
    How in the hell can you consider tendering every player (with 3 exceptions) rebuilding?

    Truth is, they aren't signing players like you contend. They signed one, and at a lowball offer equal to what a situational pass rusher would get and then they are gonna ask him to try to eat up the reps Ray is GONNA take off cause he got tendered again.

    Rebuilding.....HAH.

    Again.....

    Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

    Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
    Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.
    If Ray was replaceable they wouldn't have tendered him. Thats reality, just like this staff is cutting corners and saving money and we the fans will see the production on the field slip as well.

    Sad thing in all of this, poor Leslie is being set up to be the scapegoat.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #37
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090831
    Some of you(namely, only a handful) believe the coaches refuse to talk contract with some guys like Rice/Edwards (until of course, the EVIDENCE came out that they were talking with Rice), now we're not signing guys, just because?
    You had me until that part.

    Coaches don't talk contract. They tell Bryz/Spielman they want to retain the player and then Bryz tries to get a deal done under the spending constraints set forth by the Ownership group.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #38
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090846
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1090831
    Some of you(namely, only a handful) believe the coaches refuse to talk contract with some guys like Rice/Edwards (until of course, the EVIDENCE came out that they were talking with Rice), now we're not signing guys, just because?
    You had me until that part.

    Coaches don't talk contract. They tell Bryz/Spielman they want to retain the player and then Bryz tries to get a deal done under the spending constraints set forth by the Ownership group.
    Tomato Tomatow

    you know exactly what I mean

  9. #39
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    [quote="Marrdro" #1090845]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090729
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090723
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090709
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090706
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090687
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090665
    1: Ray was tendered with a 1st round tender. That meant he received either $2.5 million or $2.7 million - depending upon whom you ask.

    That's a pretty fair jump from his salary of $1.01 million from'09.

    Was it the $60 million over 6 years with $35 million guaranteed that he dreamed of? No. And, truthfully, I just made those numbers up. Fact is, it was a lot LESS than he hoped...

    Caine
    A few contracts for players at the same position as Ray. By they way, using the only stat you seem to think DE's should be graded by, Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

    Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
    Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.

    Yup, I can see that Ray is getting what he deserves.

    ...but that's the way the rules were written. The CBA, which governed how contracts would be structured, was struck down. That meant that NO ONE was getting big money in year 5 or even in year 6. But mostly it affected 5th year players.
    You need to go back and revisit that.

    There were several teams that signed players to contracts. What didn't happen was teams didn't pursue FA's that were tendered.
    Yeah the 9ers overpaid to get Smith from Cindy but as you can see his productivity didn't equal his paycheck. That is not much different than us Signing Berrian, Wade,Williams etc to higher than value FA contracts that tied up money we could have spent elsewhere. In the end if a team wants to sign RE to a higher than value contract then I say let them and we can look for a player that gives us value equal to their productivity.
    Thats exactly why I picked Smith. I remember distinctly how many on here wanted him when he was a FA and got pissed when we didn't sign him.

    I think the staffs decision was the right one.

    Back to Ray. I can't get access to the best stat site out there anymore cause its now pay (to much for my blood) but it used to list all the other stats for DE's, pressures, knockdowns, etc. Ray, was second in the league in those catagories two years running leading into last season.

    My guess, based on those stats, he will get (to use Caines opinion) "Overpaid" a bunch by a team. Truth of the matter is, I bet alot of teams will be willing to "Overpay" him.
    And the Vikings, currently lead by the Guy who was Ray's D-Coordinator, don't share that opinion. They just signed Robison to a deal and not Ray...


    ...wonder why?

    See, it's not so much that they aren't signing people...they are. They just aren't signing everyone. And, as I've said in many previous posts, most of the guys whose contracts are up are completely replaceable.

    Would I like to see Peterson inked to a long term deal? Yes...and if the NFL has a season next year, I think we'll see that happen.

    Would I like Greenway locked up? Yup...but a 1 year ride on the Franchise tag won't kill him.

    As for the rest.....whatever. None of them, including Ray Edwards, has stood out this past season. Maybe Ray leaves and tears it up somewhere else...

    ..maybe he does a Hovan and quietly produces somewhere else, but never at an elite level.

    Regardless, I don't really think our FO is screwing anything up just yet. We are REBUILDING...like it or not. As such, we have to look at guys who can have an impact for a LONG time. I'm not sure why Edwards was passed over, but he was.

    And that tells me something.

    Caine
    How in the hell can you consider tendering every player (with 3 exceptions) rebuilding?

    Truth is, they aren't signing players like you contend. They signed one, and at a lowball offer equal to what a situational pass rusher would get and then they are gonna ask him to try to eat up the reps Ray is GONNA take off cause he got tendered again.

    Rebuilding.....HAH.

    Again.....

    Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

    Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
    Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.
    If Ray was replaceable they wouldn't have tendered him. Thats reality, just like this staff is cutting corners and saving money and we the fans will see the production on the field slip as well.

    Sad thing in all of this, poor Leslie is being set up to be the scapegoat.
    They tendered him to be able to extract either one more year out of him or to possibly get a draft pick in return for his leaving.

    In the end if they reach a new CBA, the tender will probably be out the window anyway but this keeps him in their control until that is hashed out and once the terms are finalized the team will know if they have the dollars to sign him and what his value will be.

    Smart move IMHO.

  10. #40
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    [quote="Marrdro" #1090845]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090729
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090723
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1090709
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090706
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090687
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1090665
    1: Ray was tendered with a 1st round tender. That meant he received either $2.5 million or $2.7 million - depending upon whom you ask.

    That's a pretty fair jump from his salary of $1.01 million from'09.

    Was it the $60 million over 6 years with $35 million guaranteed that he dreamed of? No. And, truthfully, I just made those numbers up. Fact is, it was a lot LESS than he hoped...

    Caine
    A few contracts for players at the same position as Ray. By they way, using the only stat you seem to think DE's should be graded by, Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

    Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
    Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.

    Yup, I can see that Ray is getting what he deserves.

    ...but that's the way the rules were written. The CBA, which governed how contracts would be structured, was struck down. That meant that NO ONE was getting big money in year 5 or even in year 6. But mostly it affected 5th year players.
    You need to go back and revisit that.

    There were several teams that signed players to contracts. What didn't happen was teams didn't pursue FA's that were tendered.
    Yeah the 9ers overpaid to get Smith from Cindy but as you can see his productivity didn't equal his paycheck. That is not much different than us Signing Berrian, Wade,Williams etc to higher than value FA contracts that tied up money we could have spent elsewhere. In the end if a team wants to sign RE to a higher than value contract then I say let them and we can look for a player that gives us value equal to their productivity.
    Thats exactly why I picked Smith. I remember distinctly how many on here wanted him when he was a FA and got pissed when we didn't sign him.

    I think the staffs decision was the right one.

    Back to Ray. I can't get access to the best stat site out there anymore cause its now pay (to much for my blood) but it used to list all the other stats for DE's, pressures, knockdowns, etc. Ray, was second in the league in those catagories two years running leading into last season.

    My guess, based on those stats, he will get (to use Caines opinion) "Overpaid" a bunch by a team. Truth of the matter is, I bet alot of teams will be willing to "Overpay" him.
    And the Vikings, currently lead by the Guy who was Ray's D-Coordinator, don't share that opinion. They just signed Robison to a deal and not Ray...


    ...wonder why?

    See, it's not so much that they aren't signing people...they are. They just aren't signing everyone. And, as I've said in many previous posts, most of the guys whose contracts are up are completely replaceable.

    Would I like to see Peterson inked to a long term deal? Yes...and if the NFL has a season next year, I think we'll see that happen.

    Would I like Greenway locked up? Yup...but a 1 year ride on the Franchise tag won't kill him.

    As for the rest.....whatever. None of them, including Ray Edwards, has stood out this past season. Maybe Ray leaves and tears it up somewhere else...

    ..maybe he does a Hovan and quietly produces somewhere else, but never at an elite level.

    Regardless, I don't really think our FO is screwing anything up just yet. We are REBUILDING...like it or not. As such, we have to look at guys who can have an impact for a LONG time. I'm not sure why Edwards was passed over, but he was.

    And that tells me something.

    Caine
    How in the hell can you consider tendering every player (with 3 exceptions) rebuilding?

    Truth is, they aren't signing players like you contend. They signed one, and at a lowball offer equal to what a situational pass rusher would get and then they are gonna ask him to try to eat up the reps Ray is GONNA take off cause he got tendered again.

    Rebuilding.....HAH.

    Again.....

    Ray has 29.5 over his first contract which got him a first-round tender ($2.736 million).

    Justin Smith. 31 sacks over the same time period. 6 years, 49 Mil.
    Robert Mathias 48.5 sacks over the same time period. 5 yeears, 30 Mil.
    If Ray was replaceable they wouldn't have tendered him. Thats reality, just like this staff is cutting corners and saving money and we the fans will see the production on the field slip as well.

    Sad thing in all of this, poor Leslie is being set up to be the scapegoat.
    1: By tendering all the potential FA players, the Vikings guarantee one of several things will happen:
    A: The player resigns with the Vikings at an economic rate.
    B: The player resigns with someone else and WE get a draft pick.
    C: The player sits his ass all year.

    2: Both Smith and Mathis (Not Mathias, as you have written), have been proven commodities in the NFL for a lot longer than Ray. Are you trying to argue that Ray deserves Mathis money? Not a chance in hell!!!!

    3: Again, Ray is REPLACEABLE!! So is Rice for that matter. Why are your knickers in a knot over the Vikings NOT signing REPLACEABLE players to long term deals? Hell, we don't even know what the new CBA provisions will be!!!!

    In case it escaped your attention, we did not do so well last year...on EITHER side of the ball. Why start throwing big money at players we need to upgrade anyway?

    And, FWIW, I read we didn't tender 5 players:

    "In addition to Jackson, the Vikings did not place tenders on wide receiver Hank Baskett, defensive lineman Fred Evans, fullback Naufahu Tahi and running back Albert Young. Any of the non-tendered players could be re-signed if the Vikings want to pursue them at a lower price than it would have potentially cost to put a tag on them." http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/other_nfl/view.bg?articleid=1320966&format=&page=2&listingTy pe=nfl#articleFull


    Caine

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