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  1. #11
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "gamecocksbaseball31" #1090611
    I read about this last night. I'm not happy with losing Pat because he was one of my favorite players. However, I do think its for the best if we get someone to replace him. I think this is even more of a reason for us to retain Robison. I know he plays DE but he gives us such a lift when he moves inside on pass rush situations. I would love to see him take over for Ray Edwards and then bring in a DT although there isn't much to look at in FA...

    FA:
    Brandon Mebane
    Alan Branch
    Shaun Cody
    Chris Hoke
    Quick comment my friend, related to your Rob/Lift comment.

    You do realize that he gives us a lift because he is fresh because Ray takes all the beating against the run.

    As we saw when Ray went down this year and Rob filled in, he didn't have enough ass to stop the run and teams just ran at him. Additionally, he was pretty much a non factor as a pass rusher when he actually filled in against the run at LDE in the base defense.

    Don't get me wrong, I like him alot, but he is nothing more than a good "Situational" pass rusher that can come in with fresh leggs on 3rd and long passing situations.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #12
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090619
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090597
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090583
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    I think we will see some comments like this from players, not so much related to the loss of the Chiller (I think you were really joking anyways), but rather, related to how the FO pukes are treating players with respect to contracts.

    I know I sound like a broken wheel here, but these damn "Tenders" are just gonna flat piss players off.

    If I've learned one thing about the game, teams that are successful seem to have one thing in common.......Everyone is on the same page and have bought into what the staff is trying to do.

    No way in heck the players are buying into the crap that is going on right now.
    Are you saying Pat Williams is a good player right now? Note his choice of words, "I feel if I got your back and you don’t got my back, trust [is] gone."

    I think this has a lot more to do with the Vikings recognizing teh Pat's production had fallen off last year. He was only used in run heavy situations, and even then teams were able to run on us with more success than they have in the past.

    Now, that isn't ALL at the feet of Pat, but he wasn't exactly tearing it up either.

    So, the Vikings are looking to change...and he feels this is a betrayal of trust because HE wasn't looking to move on...until now.

    This is a lot like a few years back ('06) when Ahman Green was crying (literally) because the Packers weren't going to offer him a long term deal. Never mind that he'd just had a season ending knee injury, never mind that his production had dropped off regardless, Green felt Green Bay owed him for all his years of service. They didn't.

    The Vikings don't OWE Pat anything. He got paid VERY WELL to perform a service he can no longer perform as well as we need him to. That means that the Vikings need to fix the issue...and Pat doesn't like the inevitable conclusion that fixing the issue might mean replacing Pat Williams. So, instead of accepting that maybe HE SLOWED DOWN, Pat says he feels betrayed so it's not HIM that's the problem.

    Even if it really is.

    Again, IMO this has almost NOTING to do with FO people and their alleged mismanagement of contracts. Truth is, of all the people we could possibly lose, the only one I was really worried about got signed (Greenway). The rest are, in a word, REPLACEABLE.

    Just like Pat.

    Caine
    How in the hell did you take my post and turn it into a "What do you think Pat"......discussion.

    I think we will see some comments like this from players, not so much related to the loss of the Chiller (I think you were really joking anyways), but rather, related to how the FO pukes are treating players with respect to contracts.
    You of all people know how long I've been chanting that we need to upgrade his position. Hell, just recently you hacked on me about DT's in the TJ thread.

    Gimme a break.

    My reply to my good friend PF was about the staffs treating of players in general, related to his Chiller comment, and had nothing to do with Phat Pat my friend.

    To think, you used to be so good at reading what people posted and replying to that post. Now you just seem to be a man who is posting with an agenda and that agenda is to try to save yourself from buying me a few beers. :laugh: :P
    Oh....I don't know.....maybe my reply was fueled by you - once again - presenting the conspiracy theory that the FO mismanaged the FA's and we have so many out there that are worthy of being resigned.

    After all, you DID state "I think we will see some comments like this from players...related to how the FO pukes are treating players with respect to contracts"

    I simply presented a case that refuted the idea that it was actually FO malfeasance, and more a case of a player grumbling because he refuses to acknowledge his declining skills.

    Sad, you used to be able to pick the point out of a post...

    ..and fear of buying beer is not a condition I even remotely entertain. My only fear is that you'll run out of money before I've finished drinking...

    Caine

  3. #13
    dfosterf's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Will the Williams wall serve that 4 game suspension?

  4. #14
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090598
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090583
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    ...If I've learned one thing about the game, teams that are successful seem to have one thing in common.......Everyone is on the same page and have bought into what the staff is trying to do.

    No way in heck the players are buying into the crap that is going on right now.
    Tenders allow teams to allow Players to test free agency.

    Jackson had a tender last season...no one even looked. That should have told him something. Do you think that without the tender Jackson would have signed a big money deal somewhere?

    How about Ray Edwards? Same deal applied. No one came knocking...he signed. And, to validate our NOT giving him a big value deal, his production fell off.

    Tenders don't mean a team doesn't want you, to me they simply mean that the team wants to be realistic about what they'll offer you. And, I'm sorry, if you're going to be Player Pissy Pants because a team RIGHTFULLY doesn't want to throw tons of money after your fluke ass and be on the hook when you tank, then go out and EARN a bigger pay day.

    Edwards really didn't. Jackson certainly didn't. As for the rest, we'll see.

    Caine
    Are you going to keep using last year as the basis for what our players are worth cause no one came and tried to sign them.

    In case you haven't heard, ......

    NFL players’ union files collusion claim


    .......of course none of the teams went after other teams players. It was something the owners agreed upon and because they didn't, it allowed them to bankroll 5 Billion dollars.

    So to sit here and contend that your view point on what a tender means to a player is accurate, flies in the face of what the players actually think about them.

    Heres something to chew on.......When a player decides to have a surgery late and won't play, or doesn't produce on the field cause he has a "Near High Ankle Sprain"......Don't get all PISSY PANTS with them cause they are basically producing at the reduced level that the teams have reduced level pay warrants.
    He also neglected to mention the compensation that goes along with offering a tender to a player. Every team may want to sign a Ray Edwards but almost none will give up a 1st for him.

  5. #15
    jessejames09's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Sad story. It's too bad the team and Pat have different opinions in what he has left, I would have liked to see him retire here. Maybe even stick around as an assistant d-line coach. You're not 38 and starting at DT for no reason.

    Reminds me of Cris Carter playing that last year as a Dolphin, just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

  6. #16
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090598
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090583
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    ...If I've learned one thing about the game, teams that are successful seem to have one thing in common.......Everyone is on the same page and have bought into what the staff is trying to do.

    No way in heck the players are buying into the crap that is going on right now.
    Tenders allow teams to allow Players to test free agency.

    Jackson had a tender last season...no one even looked. That should have told him something. Do you think that without the tender Jackson would have signed a big money deal somewhere?

    How about Ray Edwards? Same deal applied. No one came knocking...he signed. And, to validate our NOT giving him a big value deal, his production fell off.

    Tenders don't mean a team doesn't want you, to me they simply mean that the team wants to be realistic about what they'll offer you. And, I'm sorry, if you're going to be Player Pissy Pants because a team RIGHTFULLY doesn't want to throw tons of money after your fluke ass and be on the hook when you tank, then go out and EARN a bigger pay day.

    Edwards really didn't. Jackson certainly didn't. As for the rest, we'll see.

    Caine
    Are you going to keep using last year as the basis for what our players are worth cause no one came and tried to sign them.

    In case you haven't heard, ......

    NFL players’ union files collusion claim
    No, Marr, I'm going to use their PRODUCTION as a basis for what they're worth, and THEN use the fact that no one even TRIED to sign them as validation.

    See how that works? If not, I'll give you an example:

    Thesis Statement: Tarvaris Jackson is not worth a big dollar contract.

    Supporting Evidence: His stats and tapes of his performances.

    As Evidenced By: No one trying to sign him with a lowly 3rd round tender on him.

    Conclusion: Tarvaris Jackson is not in demand as a QB


    See...not that hard. And, honestly, it's a lot simpler than the Marrdro way which seems to go a lot like this:

    Thesis Statement: Sydney Rice was tanking for a contract.

    Supporting Evidence: None.

    As Evidenced By: None.

    Conclusion: Because Rice didn't get surgery right away, he must have been mad about not being offered a huge contract after only 1 good season.


    See the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    .......of course none of the teams went after other teams players. It was something the owners agreed upon and because they didn't, it allowed them to bankroll 5 Billion dollars.
    Well, the NFLPA alleges that...but I think it had a lot more to do with the idea that with a labor dispute looming, the teams elected not to over spend in Free Agency.

    Now, just because it's alleged doesn't make it true. Remember,m the NFLPA has a vested interest in putting forth the notion that the owners are screwing the players and MINIMIZING the idea that the players are over compensated.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    So to sit here and contend that your view point on what a tender means to a player is accurate, flies in the face of what the players actually think about them.
    OF COURSE they're mad. The expiration of the CBA means that teams can RFA tender players for SIX years instead of four. Guys like Ray Edwards have already spoken out about how pissed they are about it...

    Tender rules explained: http://min.scout.com/2/951033.html

    ...but how did Ray demonstrate that he is WORTH a big contract? Which guys in 2010, on ANY team, grossly over played their 5th year contract?

    See, the flip side of the tender - which gives the teams compensation for departing players - is the fact that it ALSO guarantees a certain level of pay for the player. Edwards, signing a 1st round tender, was given a HUGE raise....then wasn't worth it.

    The point here is that just because the players think it, doesn't mean it's valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    Heres something to chew on.......When a player decides to have a surgery late and won't play, or doesn't produce on the field cause he has a "Near High Ankle Sprain"......Don't get all PISSY PANTS with them cause they are basically producing at the reduced level that the teams have reduced level pay warrants.

    Any player who would INTENTIONALLY sand bag, or play to "protect himself", simply demonstrates WHY he isn't worth the money.

    Players who want an increased level of pay need to produce an increased level of PLAY.

    Rice didn't. Edwards didn't. IMHO, we can do without either or both of them.

    I'm not saying this to reopen the Jackson or Edwards debates. Merely to point out that there are two sides to the Tender issue...and I'm sorry, Ray Edwards making 5 millions dollars last season doesn't impress me as being underpaid. What he's REALLY bitching about is not getting a LONG TERM deal with the front loaded bonus.

    But then that opens the debate of the relative worth of long term deals...

    Caine

  7. #17
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090664
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    Quote Originally Posted by "Caine" #1090598
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090583
    Thanks for the read my friend.

    ...If I've learned one thing about the game, teams that are successful seem to have one thing in common.......Everyone is on the same page and have bought into what the staff is trying to do.

    No way in heck the players are buying into the crap that is going on right now.
    Tenders allow teams to allow Players to test free agency.

    Jackson had a tender last season...no one even looked. That should have told him something. Do you think that without the tender Jackson would have signed a big money deal somewhere?

    How about Ray Edwards? Same deal applied. No one came knocking...he signed. And, to validate our NOT giving him a big value deal, his production fell off.

    Tenders don't mean a team doesn't want you, to me they simply mean that the team wants to be realistic about what they'll offer you. And, I'm sorry, if you're going to be Player Pissy Pants because a team RIGHTFULLY doesn't want to throw tons of money after your fluke ass and be on the hook when you tank, then go out and EARN a bigger pay day.

    Edwards really didn't. Jackson certainly didn't. As for the rest, we'll see.

    Caine
    Are you going to keep using last year as the basis for what our players are worth cause no one came and tried to sign them.

    In case you haven't heard, ......

    NFL players’ union files collusion claim
    No, Marr, I'm going to use their PRODUCTION as a basis for what they're worth, and THEN use the fact that no one even TRIED to sign them as validation.

    See how that works? If not, I'll give you an example:

    Thesis Statement: Tarvaris Jackson is not worth a big dollar contract.

    Supporting Evidence: His stats and tapes of his performances.

    As Evidenced By: No one trying to sign him with a lowly 3rd round tender on him.

    Conclusion: Tarvaris Jackson is not in demand as a QB


    See...not that hard. And, honestly, it's a lot simpler than the Marrdro way which seems to go a lot like this:

    Thesis Statement: Sydney Rice was tanking for a contract.

    Supporting Evidence: None.

    As Evidenced By: None.

    Conclusion: Because Rice didn't get surgery right away, he must have been mad about not being offered a huge contract after only 1 good season.


    See the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    .......of course none of the teams went after other teams players. It was something the owners agreed upon and because they didn't, it allowed them to bankroll 5 Billion dollars.
    Well, the NFLPA alleges that...but I think it had a lot more to do with the idea that with a labor dispute looming, the teams elected not to over spend in Free Agency.

    Now, just because it's alleged doesn't make it true. Remember,m the NFLPA has a vested interest in putting forth the notion that the owners are screwing the players and MINIMIZING the idea that the players are over compensated.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    So to sit here and contend that your view point on what a tender means to a player is accurate, flies in the face of what the players actually think about them.
    OF COURSE they're mad. The expiration of the CBA means that teams can RFA tender players for SIX years instead of four. Guys like Ray Edwards have already spoken out about how pissed they are about it...

    Tender rules explained: http://min.scout.com/2/951033.html

    ...but how did Ray demonstrate that he is WORTH a big contract? Which guys in 2010, on ANY team, grossly over played their 5th year contract?

    See, the flip side of the tender - which gives the teams compensation for departing players - is the fact that it ALSO guarantees a certain level of pay for the player. Edwards, signing a 1st round tender, was given a HUGE raise....then wasn't worth it.

    The point here is that just because the players think it, doesn't mean it's valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1090617
    Heres something to chew on.......When a player decides to have a surgery late and won't play, or doesn't produce on the field cause he has a "Near High Ankle Sprain"......Don't get all PISSY PANTS with them cause they are basically producing at the reduced level that the teams have reduced level pay warrants.

    Any player who would INTENTIONALLY sand bag, or play to "protect himself", simply demonstrates WHY he isn't worth the money.

    Players who want an increased level of pay need to produce an increased level of PLAY.

    Rice didn't. Edwards didn't. IMHO, we can do without either or both of them.

    I'm not saying this to reopen the Jackson or Edwards debates. Merely to point out that there are two sides to the Tender issue...and I'm sorry, Ray Edwards making 5 millions dollars last season doesn't impress me as being underpaid. What he's REALLY bitching about is not getting a LONG TERM deal with the front loaded bonus.

    But then that opens the debate of the relative worth of long term deals...

    Caine
    Some of what you say makes sense but I disagree with a lot of what you say.

    1) Most teams make a killing on production vs. price as it relates to rookie contracts. Lets ignore the first 20 picks of the draft. A lot of very talented players play their asses off without the pay for it.
    Ray was a 4th round player. I'm too lazy to look up his first contract but I can assure you it was peanuts(compared to other athletes). The increase in pay from the tender is laughable to these guys. When faced with the possibility of getting 20 million guaranteed, do you really think most will settle for 4 million for a season. I know, I know, poor spoiled athlete wants more money....but in reality, if any of us were able to make that kinda of money for a career, we would want more. We would not be satisfied with 4 million and we would want to get as much as we could comfortably get. It's human nature. The team didn't do them a favor by tagging them. It's a business but it doesn't mean it doesn't rub a few the wrong way. For instance, I'm in school for nursing and it's accepted that your first 2 years out of school you may make 1 salary and then 2 years later you are bumped up to a higher salary. Do you think I would be happy that I signed a contract saying that I want out after 2 years so that I can see the increase in pay that i should get...only to be told that the Hospital is ignoring the contract I signed and is now requiring me to keep my lower salary for 4 years? I would be vexed.

  8. #18
    dfosterf's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Thesis, supporting, as evidenced by; and conclusion. Where the hell did negation go? lol

    In a (somehow) related development, I had to buy supplies for my wife's garden today.

    $6.99 for a bag of dehydrated cow manure? I think a fella from Wisconsin should get some sort of discount on that. :P

  9. #19
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Ok, well, wow...much more here that the Thread Title implies.

    In the spirit of sticking to a point...I think there is way too much read into Pat's comments. Now, we all know he loved previous coaches, Tomlin most notably...me too. As long as he performed, Frazier was very supportive of Pat, but, let's be real people...we dipped last year, Pat's effectiveness did too. It is time to move on, sorry, making employement decisions is hard. Those that are effective at leadership can make these tough decisions.

    Pat...I have your jersey, I loved your passion, your "Vikingness" is respected, oh, and, I got your back...but, we are gonna move on. Would love to meet you.

    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
    ----------------------------------------------
    As a matter of fact, I do know

  10. #20
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    Re: Are the Vikings trust worthy? Pat Williams...

    Quote Originally Posted by "dfosterf" #1090666
    Thesis, supporting, as evidenced by; and conclusion. Where the hell did negation go? lol

    In a (somehow) related development, I had to buy supplies for my wife's garden today.

    $6.99 for a bag of dehydrated cow manure? I think a fella from Wisconsin should get some sort of discount on that. :P
    If you could find a way to bag the bullshit that gets spread around here we could get you a lifetime supply for free. I'll start the bullshit and you start the bagging. Deal?

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