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  1. #51
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    What should Leslie be doing to counter this?
    I think we suck at disguising what we are going to do, which allows the opposing team to adjust/audible out of thier initial play, thereby catching us with our shorts down.
    Unlike you, I like the job Leslie is doing in general.

    But some things could be improved.
    And one of those things is disguising the defensive alignment, just like you said.

    EJ Henderson was good at disguising, not so much anyone else.
    They probably aren't given the latitude in this scheme, and that falls squarely on Leslie.
    This my friends is why I am excited about Griffen, the 3-4 base defense is the reason why teams like BAL,PIT and ARI can disguise their coverage so well. The entire 3-4 defense is designed around disguising the coverage and which LB is blitzing. You don't have that liberty with a 4-3 because of the personnel you have in the game. With Griffen added to the mix and Robison probably capable of emulating a 3-4 OLB as well the Vikings should be able to do some more interesting things with there blitz/coverage packages.

    The traditional 4-3 and especially the Tampa 2 defense just don't lend themselves to the kind of deception you can get out of the 3-4.
    Maybe Leslie will mix in a little of the old 46 defense he ran with the bears and Buddy Ryan.

    I do like your thoughts on flexibility with Griffen.It will surprise me if they will ever get out of that 4-3 base.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
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  2. #52
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    jargomcfargo wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    What should Leslie be doing to counter this?
    I think we suck at disguising what we are going to do, which allows the opposing team to adjust/audible out of thier initial play, thereby catching us with our shorts down.
    Unlike you, I like the job Leslie is doing in general.

    But some things could be improved.
    And one of those things is disguising the defensive alignment, just like you said.

    EJ Henderson was good at disguising, not so much anyone else.
    They probably aren't given the latitude in this scheme, and that falls squarely on Leslie.
    This my friends is why I am excited about Griffen, the 3-4 base defense is the reason why teams like BAL,PIT and ARI can disguise their coverage so well. The entire 3-4 defense is designed around disguising the coverage and which LB is blitzing. You don't have that liberty with a 4-3 because of the personnel you have in the game. With Griffen added to the mix and Robison probably capable of emulating a 3-4 OLB as well the Vikings should be able to do some more interesting things with there blitz/coverage packages.

    The traditional 4-3 and especially the Tampa 2 defense just don't lend themselves to the kind of deception you can get out of the 3-4.
    Maybe Leslie will mix in a little of the old 46 defense he ran with the bears and Buddy Ryan.

    I do like your thoughts on flexibility with Griffen.It will surprise me if they will ever get out of that 4-3 base.
    That's what's so good about the 4-3 to 3-4 shift. All Griffen has to do is stand-up and wham...its a 3-4 front.

    I don't think we have the corners it would take to run a 46.

    I think that having personnel that would let them flip back and forth between a 4-3 front or a 3-4 front will be a safer unless we find that our man-to-man cover skills are better than we think. In games where we could go man to man effectively we would dominate more with a 5-2 than a 4-6.

    I don't think you will see a lot of creativity unless we suddenley found ourselves with the secondary needed to cover man to man.
    None

  3. #53
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    What should Leslie be doing to counter this?
    I think we suck at disguising what we are going to do, which allows the opposing team to adjust/audible out of thier initial play, thereby catching us with our shorts down.
    Unlike you, I like the job Leslie is doing in general.

    But some things could be improved.
    And one of those things is disguising the defensive alignment, just like you said.

    EJ Henderson was good at disguising, not so much anyone else.
    They probably aren't given the latitude in this scheme, and that falls squarely on Leslie.
    This my friends is why I am excited about Griffen, the 3-4 base defense is the reason why teams like BAL,PIT and ARI can disguise their coverage so well. The entire 3-4 defense is designed around disguising the coverage and which LB is blitzing. You don't have that liberty with a 4-3 because of the personnel you have in the game. With Griffen added to the mix and Robison probably capable of emulating a 3-4 OLB as well the Vikings should be able to do some more interesting things with there blitz/coverage packages.

    The traditional 4-3 and especially the Tampa 2 defense just don't lend themselves to the kind of deception you can get out of the 3-4.
    I beg to differ.

    Although the 3-4 lends itself to confusing the QB when he gets to the line, if done correctly, the 4-3 can be just as confusing, but only if you disguise your intentions.

    Having your LB'rs run up to the line and then having to back out (poor timing of snap) is not how you do it. How you do it is to stay in your normal stance, that you do in your run base and then rely on your DL to shade to one side of thier gap and hide your LB just off his shoulder so the RB or TE can't get a good read on him.

    We just seem to ignore that aspect a bit and continue to time our LB'rs blitz with the snap. Teams catch on to that and vary thier snap counts to see if we are going to blitz.

    Basic highschools stuff right thar.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #54
    tastywaves's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    jargomcfargo wrote:
    What should Leslie be doing to counter this?
    I think we suck at disguising what we are going to do, which allows the opposing team to adjust/audible out of thier initial play, thereby catching us with our shorts down.
    Unlike you, I like the job Leslie is doing in general.

    But some things could be improved.
    And one of those things is disguising the defensive alignment, just like you said.

    EJ Henderson was good at disguising, not so much anyone else.
    They probably aren't given the latitude in this scheme, and that falls squarely on Leslie.
    This my friends is why I am excited about Griffen, the 3-4 base defense is the reason why teams like BAL,PIT and ARI can disguise their coverage so well. The entire 3-4 defense is designed around disguising the coverage and which LB is blitzing. You don't have that liberty with a 4-3 because of the personnel you have in the game. With Griffen added to the mix and Robison probably capable of emulating a 3-4 OLB as well the Vikings should be able to do some more interesting things with there blitz/coverage packages.

    The traditional 4-3 and especially the Tampa 2 defense just don't lend themselves to the kind of deception you can get out of the 3-4.
    I beg to differ.

    Although the 3-4 lends itself to confusing the QB when he gets to the line, if done correctly, the 4-3 can be just as confusing, but only if you disguise your intentions.

    Having your LB'rs run up to the line and then having to back out (poor timing of snap) is not how you do it. How you do it is to stay in your normal stance, that you do in your run base and then rely on your DL to shade to one side of thier gap and hide your LB just off his shoulder so the RB or TE can't get a good read on him.

    We just seem to ignore that aspect a bit and continue to time our LB'rs blitz with the snap. Teams catch on to that and vary thier snap counts to see if we are going to blitz.

    Basic highschools stuff right thar.
    Have to agree w/ bsmith on this one. The 3-4 lends itself better to disguising the blitz. You can send any of the 4 LB's and the other 3 can easily shift to fill the hole. making last second changes to who is going much easier. It takes a little more coordination with a 4-3.

    I do agree though that we suck at disguising the LB blitz when we attempt it.

  5. #55
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    One of the best defenses all-time, the 2000 ravens was a 4-3 D.
    the other best was a 46 Bears D.

    We don't have the DL to successfully pull of a 3-4 D. Pat can play NT, but then what? Where does Allen fill in? He's not a 3-4 DLineman. Maybe Kevin can play DE, but we're still short a DE.

    3-4 DE's are a very specific type of DE. You don't often see pass rushing monsters as 3-4 DE, they're more likely to be bit 300lb guys like Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Igor Olshansky or Luis Castillo.

    Our 260 lb DE's just don't cut it.The point of the 3-4, is to have big strong DL, who can tie up blockers and stuff the holes, while the linebackers fill in and can flow to the ballcarrier. If the DL can't do its job, a 3-4 can fail pretty quickly

    not to mention, you need fast, agile Linebackers, which we also don't have.

  6. #56
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    One of the best defenses all-time, the 2000 ravens was a 4-3 D.
    the other best was a 46 Bears D.

    We don't have the DL to successfully pull of a 3-4 D. Pat can play NT, but then what? Where does Allen fill in? He's not a 3-4 DLineman. Maybe Kevin can play DE, but we're still short a DE.

    3-4 DE's are a very specific type of DE. You don't often see pass rushing monsters as 3-4 DE, they're more likely to be bit 300lb guys like Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Igor Olshansky or Luis Castillo.

    Our 260 lb DE's just don't cut it.The point of the 3-4, is to have big strong DL, who can tie up blockers and stuff the holes, while the linebackers fill in and can flow to the ballcarrier. If the DL can't do its job, a 3-4 can fail pretty quickly

    not to mention, you need fast, agile Linebackers, which we also don't have.
    Don't forget to mention that one of our best DLmen said he never wants to play 3-4 again after he did hit his rookie year.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #57
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    One of the best defenses all-time, the 2000 ravens was a 4-3 D.
    the other best was a 46 Bears D.

    We don't have the DL to successfully pull of a 3-4 D. Pat can play NT, but then what? Where does Allen fill in? He's not a 3-4 DLineman. Maybe Kevin can play DE, but we're still short a DE.

    3-4 DE's are a very specific type of DE. You don't often see pass rushing monsters as 3-4 DE, they're more likely to be bit 300lb guys like Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Igor Olshansky or Luis Castillo.

    Our 260 lb DE's just don't cut it.The point of the 3-4, is to have big strong DL, who can tie up blockers and stuff the holes, while the linebackers fill in and can flow to the ballcarrier. If the DL can't do its job, a 3-4 can fail pretty quickly

    not to mention, you need fast, agile Linebackers, which we also don't have.
    Don't forget to mention that one of our best DLmen said he never wants to play 3-4 again after he did hit his rookie year.
    I don't think it would anything more than a situational ploy, to show a different look. The 4-3 is the base defense for the vast majority of the plays, but, it would be nice to have a few different looks to allow for different "Blitz/rush" packages.

    Lining up as a 5-2 front and dropping a DE end into coverage would be a neat trick with Robison and Griffen on the field at the same time. Or bringing all 5...blitz with 5 Linemen! after dropping Robison and Griffen into LB stance feinting a 3-4 then bring them both on the blitz.

    A line-up that could legitimately bounce between a 5-2 front to a 4-3 to a 3-4 would be rough on opposing offenses.

    Not a package you would see a lot of, but, you could take some scalps with it.

    Hyper athletic DEs have to be the best toys a Defensive Coordinator can get at Draft time. Don't forget that Robison and Griffen are both faster than most of the linebackers on this team.
    None

  8. #58
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    One of the best defenses all-time, the 2000 ravens was a 4-3 D.
    the other best was a 46 Bears D.

    We don't have the DL to successfully pull of a 3-4 D. Pat can play NT, but then what? Where does Allen fill in? He's not a 3-4 DLineman. Maybe Kevin can play DE, but we're still short a DE.

    3-4 DE's are a very specific type of DE. You don't often see pass rushing monsters as 3-4 DE, they're more likely to be bit 300lb guys like Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Igor Olshansky or Luis Castillo.

    Our 260 lb DE's just don't cut it.The point of the 3-4, is to have big strong DL, who can tie up blockers and stuff the holes, while the linebackers fill in and can flow to the ballcarrier. If the DL can't do its job, a 3-4 can fail pretty quickly

    not to mention, you need fast, agile Linebackers, which we also don't have.
    Don't forget to mention that one of our best DLmen said he never wants to play 3-4 again after he did hit his rookie year.
    I don't think it would anything more than a situational ploy, to show a different look. The 4-3 is the base defense for the vast majority of the plays, but, it would be nice to have a few different looks to allow for different "Blitz/rush" packages.

    Lining up as a 5-2 front and dropping a DE end into coverage would be a neat trick with Robison and Griffen on the field at the same time. Or bringing all 5...blitz with 5 Linemen! after dropping Robison and Griffen into LB stance feinting a 3-4 then bring them both on the blitz.

    A line-up that could legitimately bounce between a 5-2 front to a 4-3 to a 3-4 would be rough on opposing offenses.

    Not a package you would see a lot of, but, you could take some scalps with it.

    Hyper athletic DEs have to be the best toys a Defensive Coordinator can get at Draft time. Don't forget that Robison and Griffen are both faster than most of the linebackers on this team.
    One thing I do give Leslie props on, is that he comes up with several looks out of the 4-3, to include a 3-4 everyonce inawhile

    Heck, he even drops his DT's and DE's into pass coverage at times. First couple of times I pointed that out, several on here said it was crazy to drop cats like JA and Kevin into pass coverage.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #59
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    One of the best defenses all-time, the 2000 ravens was a 4-3 D.
    the other best was a 46 Bears D.

    We don't have the DL to successfully pull of a 3-4 D. Pat can play NT, but then what? Where does Allen fill in? He's not a 3-4 DLineman. Maybe Kevin can play DE, but we're still short a DE.

    3-4 DE's are a very specific type of DE. You don't often see pass rushing monsters as 3-4 DE, they're more likely to be bit 300lb guys like Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Igor Olshansky or Luis Castillo.

    Our 260 lb DE's just don't cut it.The point of the 3-4, is to have big strong DL, who can tie up blockers and stuff the holes, while the linebackers fill in and can flow to the ballcarrier. If the DL can't do its job, a 3-4 can fail pretty quickly

    not to mention, you need fast, agile Linebackers, which we also don't have.
    Don't forget to mention that one of our best DLmen said he never wants to play 3-4 again after he did hit his rookie year.
    I don't think it would anything more than a situational ploy, to show a different look. The 4-3 is the base defense for the vast majority of the plays, but, it would be nice to have a few different looks to allow for different "Blitz/rush" packages.

    Lining up as a 5-2 front and dropping a DE end into coverage would be a neat trick with Robison and Griffen on the field at the same time. Or bringing all 5...blitz with 5 Linemen! after dropping Robison and Griffen into LB stance feinting a 3-4 then bring them both on the blitz.

    A line-up that could legitimately bounce between a 5-2 front to a 4-3 to a 3-4 would be rough on opposing offenses.

    Not a package you would see a lot of, but, you could take some scalps with it.

    Hyper athletic DEs have to be the best toys a Defensive Coordinator can get at Draft time. Don't forget that Robison and Griffen are both faster than most of the linebackers on this team.
    One thing I do give Leslie props on, is that he comes up with several looks out of the 4-3, to include a 3-4 everyonce inawhile

    Heck, he even drops his DT's and DE's into pass coverage at times. First couple of times I pointed that out, several on here said it was crazy to drop cats like JA and Kevin into pass coverage.
    I never thought it was crazy, but dropping JA takes away a pass rushing threat.

    What I was laughing my ass of at was when I saw Pat dropping back into the hook zone.

  10. #60
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Vikings select USC DE Everson Griffen

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    One of the best defenses all-time, the 2000 ravens was a 4-3 D.
    the other best was a 46 Bears D.

    We don't have the DL to successfully pull of a 3-4 D. Pat can play NT, but then what? Where does Allen fill in? He's not a 3-4 DLineman. Maybe Kevin can play DE, but we're still short a DE.

    3-4 DE's are a very specific type of DE. You don't often see pass rushing monsters as 3-4 DE, they're more likely to be bit 300lb guys like Richard Seymore, Haloti Ngata, Igor Olshansky or Luis Castillo.

    Our 260 lb DE's just don't cut it.The point of the 3-4, is to have big strong DL, who can tie up blockers and stuff the holes, while the linebackers fill in and can flow to the ballcarrier. If the DL can't do its job, a 3-4 can fail pretty quickly

    not to mention, you need fast, agile Linebackers, which we also don't have.
    Don't forget to mention that one of our best DLmen said he never wants to play 3-4 again after he did hit his rookie year.
    I don't think it would anything more than a situational ploy, to show a different look. The 4-3 is the base defense for the vast majority of the plays, but, it would be nice to have a few different looks to allow for different "Blitz/rush" packages.

    Lining up as a 5-2 front and dropping a DE end into coverage would be a neat trick with Robison and Griffen on the field at the same time. Or bringing all 5...blitz with 5 Linemen! after dropping Robison and Griffen into LB stance feinting a 3-4 then bring them both on the blitz.

    A line-up that could legitimately bounce between a 5-2 front to a 4-3 to a 3-4 would be rough on opposing offenses.

    Not a package you would see a lot of, but, you could take some scalps with it.

    Hyper athletic DEs have to be the best toys a Defensive Coordinator can get at Draft time. Don't forget that Robison and Griffen are both faster than most of the linebackers on this team.
    One thing I do give Leslie props on, is that he comes up with several looks out of the 4-3, to include a 3-4 everyonce inawhile

    Heck, he even drops his DT's and DE's into pass coverage at times. First couple of times I pointed that out, several on here said it was crazy to drop cats like JA and Kevin into pass coverage.
    Well, in Griffen he has the perfect "toy" to experiment with. He played Elephant early on at USC, so it won't be unfamiliar to him.

    If you prescribe to the "Gotta use your personnel to its greatest advantage" philosophy then I would expect to see a lot of creative "Blitz/Rush" Schemes this year, maybe not shifting the DL into a 3-4 alignment, but, "overloading" the rush at some point along the line while dropping a lineman to LB more often.

    Still love the idea of Griffen in the SAM or WILL spot and coming on the blitz.
    None

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