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  1. #31
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    The issue though, is he's contradicting himself. In a different thread, one of the QB threads, he talks about how the day of traditional pocket passers like Manning or Brady is dead, because defenses are focusing on hitting them, and a quicker mobile guy is required to avoid hits. Now he's saying that a West Coast passer who moves around is now more likely to be hit?
    He said that? That is nuts.

    BJ, Gus, Brett and BOllinger all got hurt because they're older, and got hit in the pocket. TJ got hurt most often while rushing, as he didn't seem to understand how to slide.
    So in short you are saying our QB's got hurt because they were either old and slow or young and mobile or that they were either in or out of the pocket? Maybe we need to look at getting a QB that doesn't fit into those two classifications lol.

  2. #32
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094268
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094251
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094249
    hmmm... interesting.

    Last season, Webb played in 5 games. 2 of them were mop up duty in the end of the fourth, or filling in a play during an injury.

    in his 3 full games, he was sacked 8 times. 2.6667 times per game.
    in Favre's 12 full games last year, he was sacked 22 times. I included the one in the Bills game, even though it hurts my cause. that equals 1.8 sacks per game. Take away the bills game, and it's 1.75

    Now, care to explain to me your 'point' works? Webb came out and got sacked MORE often than Favre did. More often than a guy who allegedly couldn't move in the pocket.

    As usual... FACTS

    Not that I agree with marty's assessment, but even though Brett was sacked only 22 times, he was hit like a red headed stepchild on nearly every pass play both last year and for a good chunk of late 2009. I believe he was eluding to not only the number of sacks but the total amounts of hits a WCO QB takes. Some of this possibly due to shorter drops and roll outs?
    While htis is true, do you remember how often we saw Webb break free from a sack? He was getting hit, and he has a great ability to break free from contact. he broke out of sacks that Favre would have taken. Despite that, he still averaged more sacks per game. And he didn't even have one game with lots and two with few, he had something like 3, 3 and 2 sacks in his three games.
    Oh I agree with you 100% on what you are saying but some of it backs up Marty
    While htis is true, do you remember how often we saw Webb break free from a sack? He was getting hit, and he has a great ability to break free from contact
    I believe Marty was just stating that the WCO QB's take more hits than in other systems. I don't have any data to show anything one way or the other except that I will say in Chilly's system the QB's definitely were taking more than their share of hits.

    Just think of how much time TJ spent on the shelf in his 5 seasons because of hits he took. Same with:

    Brad Johnson
    Gus
    Brett
    Bollinger....

    I actually think Bollinger stayed the cleanest out of the bunch but when you look at the rest it is like an NFL Triage area.
    The cleanest of the bunch was McMahon. He had a clean getaway.
    Remember what they used to say about him?

    Not accurate in the pocket but very accurate when on the run.

    Sound familiar?

    Isn't that what they are sayin about Locker?
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  3. #33
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094270
    The issue though, is he's contradicting himself. In a different thread, one of the QB threads, he talks about how the day of traditional pocket passers like Manning or Brady is dead, because defenses are focusing on hitting them, and a quicker mobile guy is required to avoid hits. Now he's saying that a West Coast passer who moves around is now more likely to be hit?
    He said that? That is nuts.

    BJ, Gus, Brett and BOllinger all got hurt because they're older, and got hit in the pocket. TJ got hurt most often while rushing, as he didn't seem to understand how to slide.
    So in short you are saying our QB's got hurt because they were either old and slow or young and mobile or that they were either in or out of the pocket? Maybe we need to look at getting a QB that doesn't fit into those two classifications lol.

    lol, or maybe quarterbacks just get hurt.

  4. #34
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094246
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094189

    5. Most importantly. All WCO QB's take more hits than a traditional pocket passer. Nature of the scheme. If you can't get out and move around your gonna get killed. Case in point, the Noodle was getting killed last year behind the backups, and yet, young Webb (nimble of foot that he is) came in and did just fine and wasn't hit more than one would expect for a WCO QB.
    hmmm... interesting.

    Last season, Webb played in 5 games. 2 of them were mop up duty in the end of the fourth, or filling in a play during an injury.

    in his 3 full games, he was sacked 8 times. 2.6667 times per game.
    in Favre's 12 full games last year, he was sacked 22 times. I included the one in the Bills game, even though it hurts my cause. that equals 1.8 sacks per game. Take away the bills game, and it's 1.75

    Now, care to explain to me your 'point' works? Webb came out and got sacked MORE often than Favre did. More often than a guy who allegedly couldn't move in the pocket.

    As usual... FACTS
    Show me were I said anything about Sacks.

    Try to understand the basic concept of what I am saying then come try to get "Facts" out of me.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "HEY" #1094248
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1092786
    Outside Linebacker - Starter Needed - Just need to sign Erin back or plug Jasper in.
    Huh... Jasper Brinkley is not an outside linebacker.
    I don't think he will perform well on the outside at all. I see him "only" as the future replacement and backup to E.J. Henderson. There is also that other guy from Minnesota University who we drafted last year. Can't remember the name right now, but he reminds me of Brinkley. As far as Brinkley goes, he's a big guy who only knows (as far as I know) the inside position and is undoubtedly at his strongest against the run. I think he has showed flashes of good instinct and tackling ability. The only thing he has on E.J. is durability.
    I agree, thats why I have Erin first and Jasper second as far as a fit as the Sam, however, I don't think Jasper wouldn't work out there as well.

    Alot of sites had him projected as a OLB in a 4-3 scheme coming out my friend.

    Article referencing FFToolbox projection as a OLB.

    Vikings Draft Pick 2009: Jasper Brinkley (5th Round)…..
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #36
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094249
    Not that I agree with marty's assessment, but even though Brett was sacked only 22 times, he was hit like a red headed stepchild on nearly every pass play both last year and for a good chunk of late 2009. I believe he was eluding to not only the number of sacks but the total amounts of hits a WCO QB takes. Some of this possibly due to shorter drops and roll outs?
    Bingo, someone who understands me........

    (A tear can be seen rolling down Marrdro's cheak)
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  7. #37
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094269
    The issue though, is he's contradicting himself. In a different thread, one of the QB threads, he talks about how the day of traditional pocket passers like Manning or Brady is dead, because defenses are focusing on hitting them, and a quicker mobile guy is required to avoid hits. Now he's saying that a West Coast passer who moves around is now more likely to be hit?
    I do not contradict myself. I just take the conversation into two different tracts of discussion.

    Look around the league.......Defenses are gearing up to stop the eventual spread of "Spread" offenses throught the league.

    How do you defend them? Flood the field with Revis caliber CB's? Not gonna happen. Not enough of them to fix one team let alone the whole league.

    Next best thing, is to mix a bit of pressure with zone coverage on the backside along with some fronts that can flat out get after the QB with 3 and 4 man fronts so that you can to the QB quick and often with as many hits as you can get on him, even though you don't sack him.

    The Pressure/Zone scheme that the Steelers are running is a thing of beauty especially when they have a statue standing in the pocket who can't get away from them. (By the by, people who don't think the Steelers defense changed when Tomlin took over aren't paying very good attention).

    So what are the Offenses doing, and this is were I take you down another tract of the discussion, .......They are going to go out and start to get QB's that are a bit more mobile. Some that they can move around making it harder for defenses to key on one area (i.e. a statue in the pocket) in an effort to avoid getting your QB killed.

    If that is still confusing you, think about it another way, what kindof QBs run the spread offense at the collegiate level? Very few Mallets but a whole butt load of Lockers, Gabberts and Newtons my friend.

    Ever wonder why?
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  8. #38
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094271
    The cleanest of the bunch was McMahon. He had a clean getaway.
    Remember what they used to say about him?

    Not accurate in the pocket but very accurate when on the run.

    Sound familiar?

    Isn't that what they are sayin about Locker?
    Ole Doc brought his A game today I see.

    Locker isnt' the only one of that nature in this draft my friend. He's just the one that I think will be in our wheel house (Available) that isn't as big a reach as the others.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094389
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094269
    The issue though, is he's contradicting himself. In a different thread, one of the QB threads, he talks about how the day of traditional pocket passers like Manning or Brady is dead, because defenses are focusing on hitting them, and a quicker mobile guy is required to avoid hits. Now he's saying that a West Coast passer who moves around is now more likely to be hit?
    I do not contradict myself. I just take the conversation into two different tracts of discussion.

    Look around the league.......Defenses are gearing up to stop the eventual spread of "Spread" offenses throught the league.

    How do you defend them? Flood the field with Revis caliber CB's? Not gonna happen. Not enough of them to fix one team let alone the whole league.

    Next best thing, is to mix a bit of pressure with zone coverage on the backside along with some fronts that can flat out get after the QB with 3 and 4 man fronts so that you can to the QB quick and often with as many hits as you can get on him, even though you don't sack him.

    The Pressure/Zone scheme that the Steelers are running is a thing of beauty especially when they have a statue standing in the pocket who can't get away from them. (By the by, people who don't think the Steelers defense changed when Tomlin took over aren't paying very good attention).

    So what are the Offenses doing, and this is were I take you down another tract of the discussion, .......They are going to go out and start to get QB's that are a bit more mobile. Some that they can move around making it harder for defenses to key on one area (i.e. a statue in the pocket) in an effort to avoid getting your QB killed.

    If that is still confusing you, think about it another way, what kindof QBs run the spread offense at the collegiate level? Very few Mallets but a whole butt load of Lockers, Gabberts and Newtons my friend.

    Ever wonder why?
    Because it seems, especially at the college level, a great QB is one who is a dual threat. Just how the game is today.

    What about Brees? He runs a form of a spread passing offense, but he's not exactly a runner. Rodgers is a guy running a spread offense, and while yes, he's fast, he plays the pocket passer role first, then if all breaks down then he runs.

  10. #40
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    Re: Vikings 2011 Offensive & Defensive Needs

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094396
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094389
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094269
    The issue though, is he's contradicting himself. In a different thread, one of the QB threads, he talks about how the day of traditional pocket passers like Manning or Brady is dead, because defenses are focusing on hitting them, and a quicker mobile guy is required to avoid hits. Now he's saying that a West Coast passer who moves around is now more likely to be hit?
    I do not contradict myself. I just take the conversation into two different tracts of discussion.

    Look around the league.......Defenses are gearing up to stop the eventual spread of "Spread" offenses throught the league.

    How do you defend them? Flood the field with Revis caliber CB's? Not gonna happen. Not enough of them to fix one team let alone the whole league.

    Next best thing, is to mix a bit of pressure with zone coverage on the backside along with some fronts that can flat out get after the QB with 3 and 4 man fronts so that you can to the QB quick and often with as many hits as you can get on him, even though you don't sack him.

    The Pressure/Zone scheme that the Steelers are running is a thing of beauty especially when they have a statue standing in the pocket who can't get away from them. (By the by, people who don't think the Steelers defense changed when Tomlin took over aren't paying very good attention).

    So what are the Offenses doing, and this is were I take you down another tract of the discussion, .......They are going to go out and start to get QB's that are a bit more mobile. Some that they can move around making it harder for defenses to key on one area (i.e. a statue in the pocket) in an effort to avoid getting your QB killed.

    If that is still confusing you, think about it another way, what kindof QBs run the spread offense at the collegiate level? Very few Mallets but a whole butt load of Lockers, Gabberts and Newtons my friend.

    Ever wonder why?
    Because it seems, especially at the college level, a great QB is one who is a dual threat. Just how the game is today.

    What about Brees? He runs a form of a spread passing offense, but he's not exactly a runner. Rodgers is a guy running a spread offense, and while yes, he's fast, he plays the pocket passer role first, then if all breaks down then he runs.
    Running Qb's are never going to take over the nfl...that's been being said for 20 years now. The only TRUE dual threat Qb's that I can think of off hand are John Elway, Steve Young(at the end of his career), Mike Vick(LAST YEAR, lets see if he can repeat that)Randle Cunningham(in 98).

    When its all said and done, all the best Qb's in the league are "pocket passers" and the SB winner every year has a "pocket passer"

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