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  1. #21
    PurpleTide's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    "stjmnsota" wrote:
    I agree with mayock.
    What I hear is that if the Vikings are not going to substantially improve their QB position, they need to find a way to make plays.
    A substitute for plays that the QB should be making.
    Do I think this is the answer? NO. But what choice do we have?


    I agree that all the Vikes are doing is beating up AP and that all the pieces are in place. That is why it is so unbelievable that the
    Vikes are not going after a quality QB.
    Heck at this point I say go grab Garcia.
    With AP and the rest of the Vikes, he has a couple of great years left in him.

    THE DOOR IS CLOSING
    The door is closing.... Seriously??
    NOT.
    ???

    We are built to contend every year, getting younger, and building through the draft. Also with Sage giving TJ some competition, and it being his third year as a starter, Tarvaris will be improved. Mayock is a chuckle head, suggesting the wildcat, which is just a fad that will soon fade away.

    However bringing in Garcia wouldn't be a bad idea, if nothing else, just to have another arm in camp to push, and mentor JDB.

  2. #22
    marstc09's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    IMO Childress may not be able to think outside the box.

  3. #23
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:

    And if you think he's not on the field on third downs because of his fumbling you're totally mistaken.
    It is blatantly obvious why he isn't in the game on third downs- Because his pass blocking is not good at all and he has not shown the ability to be a consistent pass catcher in the flat when needed. The fumbling comes from thinking too much about what you are supposed to do instead of doing what comes naturally. Now giving him more responsibility and asking him to do more things on third downs is going to increase both the amount he has to think and the likelyhood that will lead to more fumbles.
    I had no idea what you were trying to say in your post I quoted, you made it seem like it was all fumbling, thanks for clarifying.

    "ejmat" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "ejmat" wrote:
    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    [quote author=jkjuggalo link=topic=51309.msg930868#msg930868 date=1238724616]
    [quote author=FuadFan link=topic=51309.msg930860#msg930860 date=1238723587]
    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80f9365e


    Not shown on TV today because of Cutler trade and recorded before the completion of trade.


    Personal note: Am I alone in being annoyed by Mayock's obsession with us needing to use the Wildcat which was completely ineffective after the first half of the season?
    No.
    Though I'd like the play-calling to be more imaginative, I don't think drafting Pat White to come in and run the Wildcat for 15 snaps is something that is going to elevate our offense to the next level.
    Sure, some trickery every once in a while can be good, but let's not turn us into a gimmicky offense for 15 plays a game.
    IMO what's going to really change the quality of this offense is keeping Peterson on the field for 3rd downs. We essentially tell the defense what's coming when we pull him, when Taylor is in the game you'll never see an 8 man front, the second Peterson steps off the sideline they bring someone else into the box. We catch them off guard with a run from Taylor once in a while and it works brilliantly. Imagine what Peterson could do on expected passing downs.

    I'd much rather risk a dropped pass or a missed block than have the level of predictability that we currently display.

    Combine that with consistent solid receiver play and we'll have a group of 11 that can be on the field every down.

    Having a true 11 man offense that can execute everything you need them to will drastically improve what the coaches can do with the playbook, even Childress' playbook.
    Third down conversions are the biggest problem the offense has in this scheme. The biggest offensive weapon the team has should not be on the bench.

    I agree. If it is the same old plan this year. We will likely see the same result, regardless of who is playing QB.
    I am going to comment because a lot of drives were stalled because of penalties, fumbles and INTs.
    Yes there were some 3 and outs too.
    However, if the players focus such as like they did later in the season (i.e. no penalties and keeping turnovers to a minimum except for the Atlanta game) this team will be better.
    Everyone kssp talking about the play calling.
    My question is how is play calling predictable when there are complaints about what they do on fourth down?
    I.E. passing on 4th and 1.
    How is that predicatable?
    The Vikings had their fair share of trickory but no one talks about the plays that worked well.


    Are there times when you wish they would call something other than what they call?
    Yes there are.
    Maybe we like it or maybe we hate it.
    But if we are thinking about what plays we would like to call and the coaches don't call these plays, how is that being predictable?
    To me that is a lot of contradiction and if people want to keep blaming the coaches for players not executing correctly on the field continue to do so.
    Personally I know if a player messes up it is on them.
    If the coach does nothing to fix that then it is on him.
    Therefore if CHildress takes Peterson out because he fumbles or doesn't play well on 3rd downs, I would say that is doing his job effectively.
    He may be doing his job in terms of "punishing" Peterson, but doing so hurts the rest of the team. Replacing a player on every obvious passing down creates serious predictability in the offense.
    So what you are saying is CT can't handle the job???
    Sorry I disagree.
    He doesn't hurt the team.
    AP needs to learn how to hold onto the ball.
    If taking him out helps him begin learning that then no he doesn't hurt the rest of the team.
    [/quote]
    In no way did I say Taylor can't handle the job. All I have said in this thread is that consistently removing Peterson on passing downs creates predictability in the offense and I believe it is worth the risk of a dropped pass or blown block to keep him in and the defense on their heels.

    [/quote]

    I must have misunderstood your post then.
    I apologize.
    What I don't understand though is the predictability portion of the statements people are posting.
    Just because you take out AP doesn't mean they will run the same play over and over.
    Defenses do not know if they are going to pass, run or throw a screen.
    The bottom line is CT picks up the block better.
    I would like to see them both in there so people can't key on either of them though.

    Why I bring these points up is people are quick to call Childress bland or predictable.
    Yet, when a pass play is called on 4th down and it doesn't work people get pissed and call for his head.
    Yet when the same play works people give no credit.
    You see where I am coming form here?

  4. #24
    mountainviking's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    I'd like to add that part of the reason that Chester is in on third downs is because he is quite possibly the very best third down back in the league.
    He can block, catch, and run.
    I can't even count the number of times he got us a new set of downs on persistance and determination alone.
    The only RB who compares is Kevin Faulk of NE.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  5. #25
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    "mountainviking" wrote:
    I'd like to add that part of the reason that Chester is in on third downs is because he is quite possibly the very best third down back in the league.
    He can block, catch, and run.
    I can't even count the number of times he got us a new set of downs on persistance and determination alone.
    The only RB who compares is Kevin Faulk of NE.
    I like that post, CT is a poor mans Marshall Faulk on HGH. Still I would like to see more of AD on 3rd downs, hopefully we see a maturation this year in his blocking and receiving.

  6. #26
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    "jessejames09" wrote:
    "mountainviking" wrote:
    I'd like to add that part of the reason that Chester is in on third downs is because he is quite possibly the very best third down back in the league.
    He can block, catch, and run.
    I can't even count the number of times he got us a new set of downs on persistance and determination alone.
    The only RB who compares is Kevin Faulk of NE.
    I like that post, CT is a poor mans Marshall Faulk on HGH. Still I would like to see more of AD on 3rd downs, hopefully we see a maturation this year in his blocking and receiving.
    Why not more of CT and AD together on 3rd downs?!?
    Seems like winner "all day"(pun intended) to me.
    Until Peterson can show himself to be an every down back who can hold on to the rock he will never be a league MVP.

  7. #27
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    "ejmat" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:

    And if you think he's not on the field on third downs because of his fumbling you're totally mistaken.
    It is blatantly obvious why he isn't in the game on third downs- Because his pass blocking is not good at all and he has not shown the ability to be a consistent pass catcher in the flat when needed. The fumbling comes from thinking too much about what you are supposed to do instead of doing what comes naturally. Now giving him more responsibility and asking him to do more things on third downs is going to increase both the amount he has to think and the likelyhood that will lead to more fumbles.
    I had no idea what you were trying to say in your post I quoted, you made it seem like it was all fumbling, thanks for clarifying.

    "ejmat" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "ejmat" wrote:
    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    [quote author=jkjuggalo link=topic=51309.msg930868#msg930868 date=1238724616]
    [quote author=FuadFan link=topic=51309.msg930860#msg930860 date=1238723587]
    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80f9365e


    Not shown on TV today because of Cutler trade and recorded before the completion of trade.


    Personal note: Am I alone in being annoyed by Mayock's obsession with us needing to use the Wildcat which was completely ineffective after the first half of the season?
    No.
    Though I'd like the play-calling to be more imaginative, I don't think drafting Pat White to come in and run the Wildcat for 15 snaps is something that is going to elevate our offense to the next level.
    Sure, some trickery every once in a while can be good, but let's not turn us into a gimmicky offense for 15 plays a game.
    IMO what's going to really change the quality of this offense is keeping Peterson on the field for 3rd downs. We essentially tell the defense what's coming when we pull him, when Taylor is in the game you'll never see an 8 man front, the second Peterson steps off the sideline they bring someone else into the box. We catch them off guard with a run from Taylor once in a while and it works brilliantly. Imagine what Peterson could do on expected passing downs.

    I'd much rather risk a dropped pass or a missed block than have the level of predictability that we currently display.

    Combine that with consistent solid receiver play and we'll have a group of 11 that can be on the field every down.

    Having a true 11 man offense that can execute everything you need them to will drastically improve what the coaches can do with the playbook, even Childress' playbook.
    Third down conversions are the biggest problem the offense has in this scheme. The biggest offensive weapon the team has should not be on the bench.

    I agree. If it is the same old plan this year. We will likely see the same result, regardless of who is playing QB.
    I am going to comment because a lot of drives were stalled because of penalties, fumbles and INTs.
    Yes there were some 3 and outs too.
    However, if the players focus such as like they did later in the season (i.e. no penalties and keeping turnovers to a minimum except for the Atlanta game) this team will be better.
    Everyone kssp talking about the play calling.
    My question is how is play calling predictable when there are complaints about what they do on fourth down?
    I.E. passing on 4th and 1.
    How is that predicatable?
    The Vikings had their fair share of trickory but no one talks about the plays that worked well.


    Are there times when you wish they would call something other than what they call?
    Yes there are.
    Maybe we like it or maybe we hate it.
    But if we are thinking about what plays we would like to call and the coaches don't call these plays, how is that being predictable?
    To me that is a lot of contradiction and if people want to keep blaming the coaches for players not executing correctly on the field continue to do so.
    Personally I know if a player messes up it is on them.
    If the coach does nothing to fix that then it is on him.
    Therefore if CHildress takes Peterson out because he fumbles or doesn't play well on 3rd downs, I would say that is doing his job effectively.
    He may be doing his job in terms of "punishing" Peterson, but doing so hurts the rest of the team. Replacing a player on every obvious passing down creates serious predictability in the offense.
    So what you are saying is CT can't handle the job???
    Sorry I disagree.
    He doesn't hurt the team.
    AP needs to learn how to hold onto the ball.
    If taking him out helps him begin learning that then no he doesn't hurt the rest of the team.
    In no way did I say Taylor can't handle the job. All I have said in this thread is that consistently removing Peterson on passing downs creates predictability in the offense and I believe it is worth the risk of a dropped pass or blown block to keep him in and the defense on their heels.

    [/quote]

    I must have misunderstood your post then.
    I apologize.
    What I don't understand though is the predictability portion of the statements people are posting.
    Just because you take out AP doesn't mean they will run the same play over and over.
    Defenses do not know if they are going to pass, run or throw a screen.
    The bottom line is CT picks up the block better.
    I would like to see them both in there so people can't key on either of them though.

    Why I bring these points up is people are quick to call Childress bland or predictable.
    Yet, when a pass play is called on 4th down and it doesn't work people get pissed and call for his head.
    Yet when the same play works people give no credit.
    You see where I am coming form here?

    [/quote]
    They can't predict the exact play that is coming,and I'm not suggesting we run the same plays, but you better believe defenses are pretty aware of what's coming.

    When Peterson is in the game, we are running the ball like 90% of the time.
    When Taylor is in the game we're passing probably 70% of the time.

    Combine what they can discern from film study in terms of play sequencing, formation tendencies, player habits(e.g, linemen having more weight on their heels, where running backs are looking, a receiver's body language, and quarterback pre play tendencies) they know what's coming most of the time, all I'm saying is we could do without the extra tip-off of pulling Peterson off the field on so many passing downs.

    Childress is bland in some regards, the route combinations he has our receivers run and lack of pre-play adjustments irk me, but calling a passing play on 4th down doesn't help or hurt his cause if we don't know the distance. Although you are correct that coaches, no matter who, are in a lose-lose situation on 4th down. They're either a genius or an asshole.

  8. #28
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    "Mr" wrote:
    "ejmat" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:

    And if you think he's not on the field on third downs because of his fumbling you're totally mistaken.
    It is blatantly obvious why he isn't in the game on third downs- Because his pass blocking is not good at all and he has not shown the ability to be a consistent pass catcher in the flat when needed. The fumbling comes from thinking too much about what you are supposed to do instead of doing what comes naturally. Now giving him more responsibility and asking him to do more things on third downs is going to increase both the amount he has to think and the likelyhood that will lead to more fumbles.
    I had no idea what you were trying to say in your post I quoted, you made it seem like it was all fumbling, thanks for clarifying.

    "ejmat" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "ejmat" wrote:
    "jargomcfargo" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    [quote author=jkjuggalo link=topic=51309.msg930868#msg930868 date=1238724616]
    [quote author=FuadFan link=topic=51309.msg930860#msg930860 date=1238723587]
    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80f9365e


    Not shown on TV today because of Cutler trade and recorded before the completion of trade.


    Personal note: Am I alone in being annoyed by Mayock's obsession with us needing to use the Wildcat which was completely ineffective after the first half of the season?
    No.
    Though I'd like the play-calling to be more imaginative, I don't think drafting Pat White to come in and run the Wildcat for 15 snaps is something that is going to elevate our offense to the next level.
    Sure, some trickery every once in a while can be good, but let's not turn us into a gimmicky offense for 15 plays a game.
    IMO what's going to really change the quality of this offense is keeping Peterson on the field for 3rd downs. We essentially tell the defense what's coming when we pull him, when Taylor is in the game you'll never see an 8 man front, the second Peterson steps off the sideline they bring someone else into the box. We catch them off guard with a run from Taylor once in a while and it works brilliantly. Imagine what Peterson could do on expected passing downs.

    I'd much rather risk a dropped pass or a missed block than have the level of predictability that we currently display.

    Combine that with consistent solid receiver play and we'll have a group of 11 that can be on the field every down.

    Having a true 11 man offense that can execute everything you need them to will drastically improve what the coaches can do with the playbook, even Childress' playbook.
    Third down conversions are the biggest problem the offense has in this scheme. The biggest offensive weapon the team has should not be on the bench.

    I agree. If it is the same old plan this year. We will likely see the same result, regardless of who is playing QB.
    I am going to comment because a lot of drives were stalled because of penalties, fumbles and INTs.
    Yes there were some 3 and outs too.
    However, if the players focus such as like they did later in the season (i.e. no penalties and keeping turnovers to a minimum except for the Atlanta game) this team will be better.
    Everyone kssp talking about the play calling.
    My question is how is play calling predictable when there are complaints about what they do on fourth down?
    I.E. passing on 4th and 1.
    How is that predicatable?
    The Vikings had their fair share of trickory but no one talks about the plays that worked well.


    Are there times when you wish they would call something other than what they call?
    Yes there are.
    Maybe we like it or maybe we hate it.
    But if we are thinking about what plays we would like to call and the coaches don't call these plays, how is that being predictable?
    To me that is a lot of contradiction and if people want to keep blaming the coaches for players not executing correctly on the field continue to do so.
    Personally I know if a player messes up it is on them.
    If the coach does nothing to fix that then it is on him.
    Therefore if CHildress takes Peterson out because he fumbles or doesn't play well on 3rd downs, I would say that is doing his job effectively.
    He may be doing his job in terms of "punishing" Peterson, but doing so hurts the rest of the team. Replacing a player on every obvious passing down creates serious predictability in the offense.
    So what you are saying is CT can't handle the job???
    Sorry I disagree.
    He doesn't hurt the team.
    AP needs to learn how to hold onto the ball.
    If taking him out helps him begin learning that then no he doesn't hurt the rest of the team.
    In no way did I say Taylor can't handle the job. All I have said in this thread is that consistently removing Peterson on passing downs creates predictability in the offense and I believe it is worth the risk of a dropped pass or blown block to keep him in and the defense on their heels.
    I must have misunderstood your post then.
    I apologize.
    What I don't understand though is the predictability portion of the statements people are posting.
    Just because you take out AP doesn't mean they will run the same play over and over.
    Defenses do not know if they are going to pass, run or throw a screen.
    The bottom line is CT picks up the block better.
    I would like to see them both in there so people can't key on either of them though.

    Why I bring these points up is people are quick to call Childress bland or predictable.
    Yet, when a pass play is called on 4th down and it doesn't work people get pissed and call for his head.
    Yet when the same play works people give no credit.
    You see where I am coming form here?

    [/quote]
    They can't predict the exact play that is coming,and I'm not suggesting we run the same plays, but you better believe defenses are pretty aware of what's coming.

    When Peterson is in the game, we are running the ball like 90% of the time.
    When Taylor is in the game we're passing probably 70% of the time.

    Combine what they can discern from film study in terms of play sequencing, formation tendencies, player habits(e.g, linemen having more weight on their heels, where running backs are looking, a receiver's body language, and quarterback pre play tendencies) they know what's coming most of the time, all I'm saying is we could do without the extra tip-off of pulling Peterson off the field on so many passing downs.

    Childress is bland in some regards, the route combinations he has our receivers run and lack of pre-play adjustments irk me, but calling a passing play on 4th down doesn't help or hurt his cause if we don't know the distance. Although you are correct that coaches, no matter who, are in a lose-lose situation on 4th down. They're either a genius or an asshole.
    [/quote]

    LOL.
    That's a great way of putting things in perspective.
    You have a great point on the players' habits prior to a play.
    If it is that noticible I would think the coaches would bring it up during film and practice.
    If they don't than they are the ones at fault.
    If they do and the players continue those habits then it is on them.
    One of those issues we will never know about.

  9. #29
    V4L's Avatar
    V4L
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    Mr A brings up many good points

    Even the fans know when Chester is in its like 10-20 percent chance he will get a draw.. Otherwise it's quick routes or a swing pass

    AP needs to be out on the field more in 3rd down situations.. We can work in Chester in more.. Doesn't always have to be 3rd downs

    This is of course if AP can block better.. Which he seemed like he started to do better towards the end of the seaso

  10. #30
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: State of the Franchise Vikings

    "V4L" wrote:
    Mr A brings up many good points

    Even the fans know when Chester is in its like 10-20 percent chance he will get a draw.. Otherwise it's quick routes or a swing pass

    AP needs to be out on the field more in 3rd down situations.. We can work in Chester in more.. Doesn't always have to be 3rd downs

    This is of course if AP can block better.. Which he seemed like he started to do better towards the end of the seaso
    I agree to this.
    I think they AP and CT should be in together on more plays.
    Maybe not so much 3rd down until AP can prove he cna block and come out of the backfield better.
    This is one reason why I didn't believe they needed to match the offer for Tahi.

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