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  1. #21
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    Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1086814
    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1086812
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1086810
    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1086805
    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1086804
    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1086790
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086786
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1086767
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086747
    So if you give a 4th for Orton, what do you do with your first?

    My feelings on this is you draft a kid and hope to shit he is ready enough to lead this team.

    Rationale on that is we are gonna have quite a few holes if as many leave as I anticipate. Draft will be the first option to fix those holes based on money available to the staff. After that it will be low end/2nd tier FA's that aren't picked up prior to the draft, I fear.
    To me, it all depends what's available. IMO the Vikings need to focus on the OL and secondary. I would look at the best player available in one of those two areas. Honestly I think the OL is more of a need. Without the OL it doesn't matter who the QB is. The secondary can get by IF Grif and Cook come back healthy. I see the OL as so:
    I know I'm of the minority on this, however, I don't think our OL is as bad as most on here think.

    Problem for us is we didn't see the continuity that we saw last year, and we didn't have a QB back there that was very mobile because of his ankle injury.

    When we did get someone out there that was a bit more mobile, the QB, for the most part went untouched.

    I think that if you really watched what happened the 1rst quarter TJ started (before he got injured) and the last 2 games that Webb started, you didn't see the "All out Blitzes" like you saw with the Noodle in there.

    Even against the Lions, when things weren't as smooth as the Iggles game, the LB'rs, for the most part played off alot more than we saw with the Noodle in there.

    Having said that...my opinion on each OLmen you listed.....

    McKinnie - One of the most over rated players in NFL history. I still believe Artis Hicks would have done as well if not a better job on a consistent basis.
    I wasn't that big of a Hicks guy but towards the end I started to buy in. I still say we could use an upgrade over Big Mac, but alot of our problems with him (and Load) can be traced to when they are left alone on passing downs were the defense knows we are going to pass (i.e. 3rd and long) and the QB stays in the pocket.

    Give him some help once in awhile, like all T's get around the league and I don't think we would be hacking on him as much.

    Hutch - Still great but not getting any younger. They have DeGeare to take his place but hs is still unproven.
    Injuries are starting to be a concern for me. Maybe one more year. Degeare, as time went on, started to gel and play better. As with all OLmen, that is the key.....continuity and reps together....

    Sully - At this time I have to say he will not be a great Center. Maybe serviceable but that is about as far as I would go. Maybe he improves but I don't see a lot out of him.
    Like last year, when we saw Hutch and Herrera struggle trying to help Sully out, I think we saw some of that out of him this year as Degeare and Cook worked through thier issues.

    I love watching him against the bigger 3-4 NT's. Although he isn't gonna over power them, for the most part he does pretty good.

    Get some continuity at G and I think he won't be an issue anymore, especially if he can start the year out healthy and stay that way.

    On a side note, my concern for him is that maybe he is carrying to much weight as his injury issues are related to his legs.


    Herrera - Is average at best
    I think he is a pulling monster. He, Hutch and Sully worked pretty good in 2009. Again, back to the continuity issue.

    Loadholt - Has the tools the be great. But he seems to have hung out with McKinnie to much as he developed his same traits. In addition, he holds, false starts and grabs too many face masks for my liking.
    Second year man. I think he has the talent to move to LT.

    Cook - May do okay as a Guard. Sucked as a Tackle. But nothing better than a backup.
    IMHO, if he wasn't forced to start at RT, early on, alot of people would have a different opinion of him.

    Again, in the minority here, but I think he is a damn good backup across the line, except for LT. Haven't seen him there. If he will stay for backup money, I don't think you could find a better backup/swingman because of the positions he can play.

    Cooper - I really don't know yet.
    Agree. Haven't seen enough although he did come in and play better (at times) than Cook did at C. It will be interesting to see if he is allowed to compete with Sully next year as the starter.

    I agree with pretty much all this

    I was defending the line a lot lately.. Early on they SUCKED.. They plain sucked.. Looked confused.. C and QB weren't making correct reads and line shifts..

    But last 5 weeks or so.. Besides a couple rough patches where they got rushed with 7 even 8 at times.. They played pretty good

    Loady cut down on penelties.. Wasn't getting run around many times a game

    Mac was locking down his side.. When the D KNOWS they can send 2 from over on his side on passing downs he is at a disadvantage (as are most tackles in the league especially if RBs dont pick it up)

    Sully.. I honestly dont know.. He is inconsistant.. But average starter

    Herrera.. Idk what was with him.. He had a down year and got hurt.. I felt he was gonna be one of our most improved

    Hutch.. Cant expect him to pick up a LB and NT at the same time.. Seemed a bit slower and got hurt

    Degeare.. Hes gonna be GOOODDD.. Loved what I saw.. He flat out pancakes people sometimes.. Don't see that much these days

    Cook... Love having him around.. I HATED his play.. He wasn't a tackle.. Damn I bought into the Cook hate.. he's a good guard.. GREAT backup to have

    Cooper.. Meh..
    I agree with this assessment. I was VERY happy with the line play down the stretch ... even in the losses, they were not horrible.

    DeGeare is another solid draft pick by the guys in charge. He looks like he is starting to really mold into a perfect pick.

    Hutch still is very solid, and hopefully after healing up a little will still be a good piece next season.

    Loadholt and McKinnie BOTH seemed to get fired up after Chilly's firing. Loadholt looked so bad sometimes this year that I thought he HAD to go, but he really seemed to have got his feet moving better late in the season as did McK.

    I would love to see us get one more starter to replace either Sully or Herrera ... I don't think they should be all together cut, but those are spots we can probably improve at and then keep them and Cook for depth.

    But this is a spot that was mega weak early on and seemed to get better near season's end.

    +1

    If I did Marty's spreadsheets you would be up at the top

    Top notch my friend.. Top notch indeed!

    I seem to always agree with you and your evaluations

    I see some issues with our line.. But we have a solid group.. And as a TEAM need to learn how to pick up the stunts.. The overloading on one side.. The rushing of the A gap.. Learn how to read tendencies
    I don't often disagree with the people involved here (well sometimes Marrdro :laugh: ) but I do here. Although I did see some improvement I failed to see that much. From what I remember the game Webb came in against Chicago I saw him running for his life. I saw McKinnie ole a block in which got Favre injured AGAIN. I saw constant pressure by the Bears.

    The main reason the Vikings lost (were demolished) that game was because of bad throws by Webb which in fact were forced because of crappy OL play as well as a very green QB.

    The game against the Eagles I thought they did okay. Not bad. But I also found Webb running a lot more than I'd like. Why? Because of pressure. However, I will say the OL played pretty well on a whole.

    Then let's talk about the Lions. McKinnie missed blocks as usual. DeGeare did okay at times. Made a couple of nice blocks. Also missed a few. Sully, I'm still not sure I trust him. Cook, average. Loadholt, not bad but not great. Still they didn't always give Webb a crap load of time. There were some decent blocking at times not not consistently.

    Like I stated some improvement but not much. Truth be told, the improvement wasn't anything to write home about. Maybe they played better than previously but let's be real that the play before the "improvement" was so bad that we would be happy with just about anything. I think Webb being as mobile as he is made the line look better than they played.

    Sorry but that's how I see it.

    I think we basically have the same mindset to be honest

    The Bears game.. brett held that ball for 5+ seconds.. He had a pocket to step up into and didnt see anyone.. The LB didnt give up AT ALL and made a great play.. Ya Mac looked a lil lazy but he created a pocket.. He shoulda kept going but I can see why he thought Brett had enough time

    More with that game.. We didn't block well.. The couple games before that we did.. But we have been very INCONSISTANT.. Thats the only way to discribe our line

    Lions game.. I saw alot of nice blitzing.. If Vandenboshe was in there against Mac it would have been worse.. Once again INCONSISTANT

    But from what I saw MOST of our problems was the blitz and recognizing where they are coming from PRESNAP.. We scramble during the play to get back into the play to protect..

    Im not sure if that has to due alot with the back ups.. We have had alot of struggles before.. But IMO they played ALOT better later in the season.. Not saying it was anything to write home about.. But definitely say improvement

    As to Cook and Sully etc.. They should or ARE back ups.. There is room for improvement for sure..
    I think you are confusing the Favre 5 second play with the Bills game. Against Chicago there was absolutely no block from McKinnie and that is what got Favre smashed. But yes we are of the same mindset as with most threads .

    Yup ur right lol

    Damn man this patron kickin my ass hahaha

    SKOL VIKES!

  2. #22
    scycon is offline Waterboy
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1086749
    His career completion percentage of 58% concerns me. Seems like he has always been more of a vertical passer, not the high completion percentage the west coast requires.
    Definetly an option to be considered, but I'd hope we can do better.
    I like that he is only 28.
    I wouldn't be too concerned about it. He played in Chicago from 05-08. Trash O-line and really no receivers of note. In 09 with the Broncos and Brandon Marshall on the team he threw for 62% including Bmarshes record game. Give the guy some good targets and Pass protection and he is a pretty good QB as he has shown in Denver. Even this year after Marshall left he did quite alright.

    I'd take him in a second.
    None

  3. #23
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1086815
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1086814
    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1086812
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1086810
    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1086805
    Quote Originally Posted by "midgensa" #1086804
    Quote Originally Posted by "V4L" #1086790
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086786
    Quote Originally Posted by "ejmat" #1086767
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086747
    So if you give a 4th for Orton, what do you do with your first?

    My feelings on this is you draft a kid and hope to shit he is ready enough to lead this team.

    Rationale on that is we are gonna have quite a few holes if as many leave as I anticipate. Draft will be the first option to fix those holes based on money available to the staff. After that it will be low end/2nd tier FA's that aren't picked up prior to the draft, I fear.
    To me, it all depends what's available. IMO the Vikings need to focus on the OL and secondary. I would look at the best player available in one of those two areas. Honestly I think the OL is more of a need. Without the OL it doesn't matter who the QB is. The secondary can get by IF Grif and Cook come back healthy. I see the OL as so:
    I know I'm of the minority on this, however, I don't think our OL is as bad as most on here think.

    Problem for us is we didn't see the continuity that we saw last year, and we didn't have a QB back there that was very mobile because of his ankle injury.

    When we did get someone out there that was a bit more mobile, the QB, for the most part went untouched.

    I think that if you really watched what happened the 1rst quarter TJ started (before he got injured) and the last 2 games that Webb started, you didn't see the "All out Blitzes" like you saw with the Noodle in there.

    Even against the Lions, when things weren't as smooth as the Iggles game, the LB'rs, for the most part played off alot more than we saw with the Noodle in there.

    Having said that...my opinion on each OLmen you listed.....

    McKinnie - One of the most over rated players in NFL history. I still believe Artis Hicks would have done as well if not a better job on a consistent basis.
    I wasn't that big of a Hicks guy but towards the end I started to buy in. I still say we could use an upgrade over Big Mac, but alot of our problems with him (and Load) can be traced to when they are left alone on passing downs were the defense knows we are going to pass (i.e. 3rd and long) and the QB stays in the pocket.

    Give him some help once in awhile, like all T's get around the league and I don't think we would be hacking on him as much.

    Hutch - Still great but not getting any younger. They have DeGeare to take his place but hs is still unproven.
    Injuries are starting to be a concern for me. Maybe one more year. Degeare, as time went on, started to gel and play better. As with all OLmen, that is the key.....continuity and reps together....

    Sully - At this time I have to say he will not be a great Center. Maybe serviceable but that is about as far as I would go. Maybe he improves but I don't see a lot out of him.
    Like last year, when we saw Hutch and Herrera struggle trying to help Sully out, I think we saw some of that out of him this year as Degeare and Cook worked through thier issues.

    I love watching him against the bigger 3-4 NT's. Although he isn't gonna over power them, for the most part he does pretty good.

    Get some continuity at G and I think he won't be an issue anymore, especially if he can start the year out healthy and stay that way.

    On a side note, my concern for him is that maybe he is carrying to much weight as his injury issues are related to his legs.


    Herrera - Is average at best
    I think he is a pulling monster. He, Hutch and Sully worked pretty good in 2009. Again, back to the continuity issue.

    Loadholt - Has the tools the be great. But he seems to have hung out with McKinnie to much as he developed his same traits. In addition, he holds, false starts and grabs too many face masks for my liking.
    Second year man. I think he has the talent to move to LT.

    Cook - May do okay as a Guard. Sucked as a Tackle. But nothing better than a backup.
    IMHO, if he wasn't forced to start at RT, early on, alot of people would have a different opinion of him.

    Again, in the minority here, but I think he is a damn good backup across the line, except for LT. Haven't seen him there. If he will stay for backup money, I don't think you could find a better backup/swingman because of the positions he can play.

    Cooper - I really don't know yet.
    Agree. Haven't seen enough although he did come in and play better (at times) than Cook did at C. It will be interesting to see if he is allowed to compete with Sully next year as the starter.

    I agree with pretty much all this

    I was defending the line a lot lately.. Early on they SUCKED.. They plain sucked.. Looked confused.. C and QB weren't making correct reads and line shifts..

    But last 5 weeks or so.. Besides a couple rough patches where they got rushed with 7 even 8 at times.. They played pretty good

    Loady cut down on penelties.. Wasn't getting run around many times a game

    Mac was locking down his side.. When the D KNOWS they can send 2 from over on his side on passing downs he is at a disadvantage (as are most tackles in the league especially if RBs dont pick it up)

    Sully.. I honestly dont know.. He is inconsistant.. But average starter

    Herrera.. Idk what was with him.. He had a down year and got hurt.. I felt he was gonna be one of our most improved

    Hutch.. Cant expect him to pick up a LB and NT at the same time.. Seemed a bit slower and got hurt

    Degeare.. Hes gonna be GOOODDD.. Loved what I saw.. He flat out pancakes people sometimes.. Don't see that much these days

    Cook... Love having him around.. I HATED his play.. He wasn't a tackle.. Damn I bought into the Cook hate.. he's a good guard.. GREAT backup to have

    Cooper.. Meh..
    I agree with this assessment. I was VERY happy with the line play down the stretch ... even in the losses, they were not horrible.

    DeGeare is another solid draft pick by the guys in charge. He looks like he is starting to really mold into a perfect pick.

    Hutch still is very solid, and hopefully after healing up a little will still be a good piece next season.

    Loadholt and McKinnie BOTH seemed to get fired up after Chilly's firing. Loadholt looked so bad sometimes this year that I thought he HAD to go, but he really seemed to have got his feet moving better late in the season as did McK.

    I would love to see us get one more starter to replace either Sully or Herrera ... I don't think they should be all together cut, but those are spots we can probably improve at and then keep them and Cook for depth.

    But this is a spot that was mega weak early on and seemed to get better near season's end.

    +1

    If I did Marty's spreadsheets you would be up at the top

    Top notch my friend.. Top notch indeed!

    I seem to always agree with you and your evaluations

    I see some issues with our line.. But we have a solid group.. And as a TEAM need to learn how to pick up the stunts.. The overloading on one side.. The rushing of the A gap.. Learn how to read tendencies
    I don't often disagree with the people involved here (well sometimes Marrdro :laugh: ) but I do here. Although I did see some improvement I failed to see that much. From what I remember the game Webb came in against Chicago I saw him running for his life. I saw McKinnie ole a block in which got Favre injured AGAIN. I saw constant pressure by the Bears.

    The main reason the Vikings lost (were demolished) that game was because of bad throws by Webb which in fact were forced because of crappy OL play as well as a very green QB.

    The game against the Eagles I thought they did okay. Not bad. But I also found Webb running a lot more than I'd like. Why? Because of pressure. However, I will say the OL played pretty well on a whole.

    Then let's talk about the Lions. McKinnie missed blocks as usual. DeGeare did okay at times. Made a couple of nice blocks. Also missed a few. Sully, I'm still not sure I trust him. Cook, average. Loadholt, not bad but not great. Still they didn't always give Webb a crap load of time. There were some decent blocking at times not not consistently.

    Like I stated some improvement but not much. Truth be told, the improvement wasn't anything to write home about. Maybe they played better than previously but let's be real that the play before the "improvement" was so bad that we would be happy with just about anything. I think Webb being as mobile as he is made the line look better than they played.

    Sorry but that's how I see it.

    I think we basically have the same mindset to be honest

    The Bears game.. brett held that ball for 5+ seconds.. He had a pocket to step up into and didnt see anyone.. The LB didnt give up AT ALL and made a great play.. Ya Mac looked a lil lazy but he created a pocket.. He shoulda kept going but I can see why he thought Brett had enough time

    More with that game.. We didn't block well.. The couple games before that we did.. But we have been very INCONSISTANT.. Thats the only way to discribe our line

    Lions game.. I saw alot of nice blitzing.. If Vandenboshe was in there against Mac it would have been worse.. Once again INCONSISTANT

    But from what I saw MOST of our problems was the blitz and recognizing where they are coming from PRESNAP.. We scramble during the play to get back into the play to protect..

    Im not sure if that has to due alot with the back ups.. We have had alot of struggles before.. But IMO they played ALOT better later in the season.. Not saying it was anything to write home about.. But definitely say improvement

    As to Cook and Sully etc.. They should or ARE back ups.. There is room for improvement for sure..
    I think you are confusing the Favre 5 second play with the Bills game. Against Chicago there was absolutely no block from McKinnie and that is what got Favre smashed. But yes we are of the same mindset as with most threads .

    Yup ur right lol

    Damn man this patron kickin my ass hahaha

    SKOL VIKES!
    I want what your having :silly:

  4. #24
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    Quote Originally Posted by "scycon" #1086827
    Quote Originally Posted by "jmcdon00" #1086749
    His career completion percentage of 58% concerns me. Seems like he has always been more of a vertical passer, not the high completion percentage the west coast requires.
    Definetly an option to be considered, but I'd hope we can do better.
    I like that he is only 28.
    I wouldn't be too concerned about it. He played in Chicago from 05-08. Trash O-line and really no receivers of note. In 09 with the Broncos and Brandon Marshall on the team he threw for 62% including Bmarshes record game. Give the guy some good targets and Pass protection and he is a pretty good QB as he has shown in Denver. Even this year after Marshall left he did quite alright.

    I'd take him in a second.
    Good points and let's look at it this way. He's a huge upgrade over what they have now. He's a proven QB and let's face it. There aren't many decent QBs out there right now that are available. I think Orton would fit in just fine.

  5. #25
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    Id take Orton in a second. hes a pretty good QB and would not be a bad option to have on the team as the veteran, with webb and Bomar as the young talent being worked with.

    I did see improvement in the o-line after Childress left, who knows maybe they got rid of most of the zone blocking.

  6. #26
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1086747
    So if you give a 4th for Orton, what do you do with your first?

    My feelings on this is you draft a kid and hope to shit he is ready enough to lead this team.

    Rationale on that is we are gonna have quite a few holes if as many leave as I anticipate. Draft will be the first option to fix those holes based on money available to the staff. After that it will be low end/2nd tier FA's that aren't picked up prior to the draft, I fear.
    Draft an OL, CB or Safety.

  7. #27
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    I'd have no problem at all if we traded (or picked up if cut) Orton, i think he would do a decent job holding down the fort for whoever we decide is THE franchise qb of the future.

  8. #28
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    One encouraging thing about Orton, if you look at the stats, is that he has gotten progressively better each and every year he's been in the league. Had he not been hurt and started the final three games of this season, he would have passed for over 4000 yards and would have reached a new career high in TD passes in a season. Given the number of teams who would appear to be looking for a QB in the offseason (either 1st round "franchise" QB draftee or veteran through FA or trade), it would seem that there ought to be several suitors for Orton's services.

    Even though he might well be worth it, I don't think I'd want to give up the #44 pick overall for Orton. I'd rather see if we could trade down in either the 1st round (for another 1st and a 2nd or 3rd) or the 2nd (for another 2nd and a 3rd). That way, we could have a lesser 2nd rounder to offer Denver for Orton and still draft the same number of players that we have picks for now. Of course, then we risk another team doing the same thing and having a better 2nd to offer the Broncos. Ces't la vie.

    The other option might be to offer Denver a 2012 2nd rounder (not that they would go with that, but it's an option). And of course, any trade should be contingent on signing Orton to an extension so he is a Viking for at least 3 seasons.

    I'd feel safer right now with Orton starting the 2011 season over Webb, but I could also see Webb starting with a fairly short leash and being replaced by Orton if the need arises. I think Webb definitely has potential, and I'd hate to see it wasted on the bench.
    SKOL VIKINGS!

  9. #29
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    If we are planning on going for a QB at No. 12 ... then whatever we are targeting at No. 44 could be taken there if we trade No. 44 for Orton.

    It is probably a steep price ... but he is a proven QB in this league at this point ... and if we feel he can lead this team, then by all means we should part with the No. 44 pick.

    I don't know that I would do it personally, but if the head honchos feel he has what it takes to be the head of this offense, then by all means they should pull the trigger. He is still very young by QB age (only 28) and probably has a good 5+ years left in him. Of course ... this is if someone at the top thinks he can be THE guy.

  10. #30
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    Re: Should the Vikings go after Orton?

    Lets not forget he lead the Bears to the bowl a few years back.. And the stupid move to have Grossman play may have cost em

    He's a good QB.. And id love to have him

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