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  1. #11
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    The Vikings did not do enough to address their lack of an obvious No. 1 receiver. Rice could emerge to fill that role, but he still is a rookie and the team needs at least one other receiver that would command respect from opposing defenses for being a constant big-play threat. Williamson certainly wasn't that guy last year. Free-agent newcomer Bobby Wade, formerly of the Tennessee Titans, primarily runs short and intermediate routes from the slot.
    Hopefully, Williamson can be that guy this year, otherwise I don't see our receiving corps being a deep threat. As stated, Wade runs short routes & Rice is a rookie.
    I'm so back and forth on this issue.

    On one hand, we should have the best running attack in the league. So good that our receivers can be average and still be good enough to support TJ and move the ball. We are obviously a run-oriented team. We have to run the ball effectively even when the D knows the run is coming. If that happens the receivers can be themselves (except for TWill of course, he needs to reinvent the wheel) and we'll still have an effective offense.

    On the other hand, a deep threat is definetly a missing piece in this offense. A guy like Chad Johnson or Joe Horn would be a perfect complement to our dynamic running attack. A WR so scary that the D can't put 8 in the box is last thing CT and AD need to both be 1,000 yard rushers.

    In the end it comes down to coaching. Childress has to do a better job of using his weapons this year. I think we all agree that he has more talent, and more talent means less excuses.
    V, take a look at this.
    Its a bit long and in PPT format but even a dumb old optimist like me can understand most of it.

    Basically it shows/highlights that we had better get used to a ball control, limited deep passing team in the WCO.

    Granted its there, and this doesn't quite match our version of the WCO, but not as prevelant as what we got used to in the Denny Era.

    http://www.sportscombine.com/thezone...iles/frame.htm
    Marrdro, I read the entire thing, but it has little to do with what I'm talking about because it does not talk about maximizing talent within the WCO. There are pass-happy WCOs and there are run-happy WCOs, and the difference is coaches using the strengths of their team within the scheme.

    I already expecting a ball control offense, and I never said I want us to pass more despite our great backs. A deep threat WR is not useless in a run oriented offense, he maximizes the damage that a running team can do because he cannot be left alone. Right now teams will be happy to play man and load the box until one of our receivers plays well enough to demand extra attention. How much we actually go downfield is moot so long as you have a burner who can scare every time he runs a streak.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
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  2. #12
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    On one hand, we should have the best running attack in the league.
    Ummm....say what?

    2006 Team Rushing Standings
    Team G Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TDs FDs 20+
    Atlanta 16 537 33.6 2939 5.5 183.7 9 134 23
    San Diego 16 522 32.6 2578 4.9 161.1 32 137 20
    Jacksonville 16 513 32.1 2541 5.0 158.8 23 127 14
    Washington 16 490 30.6 2216 4.5 138.5 13 123 13
    Tennessee 16 469 29.3 2214 4.7 138.4 15 105 17
    San Francisco 16 439 27.4 2172 4.9 135.8 12 97 20
    New York (N) 16 455 28.4 2156 4.7 134.8 14 120 13
    Denver 16 488 30.5 2152 4.4 134.5 12 106 16
    Kansas City 16 513 32.1 2143 4.2 133.9 17 105 12
    Pittsburgh 16 469 29.3 1992 4.2 124.5 16 100 16
    Philadelphia 16 416 26.0 1984 4.8 124.0 13 106 11
    New England 16 499 31.2 1969 3.9 123.1 20 121 12
    Dallas 16 472 29.5 1936 4.1 121.0 21 107 10
    Seattle 16 484 30.2 1923 4.0 120.2 8 112 8
    Chicago 16 503 31.4 1918 3.8 119.9 14 103 7
    Minnesota 16 442 27.6 1820 4.1 113.8 12 87 7

    To catch up to Atlanta, the Vikings will need to improve by 1100 yards.
    Hell, just to catch up to SD in 2nd place they need to improve by 700 yards.
    That's a pretty gol 'darnit large jump.
    Let's say CT gets 1200 yards and then AD gets 1200 yards.
    First, that would be fairly remarkable, it's not often that teams have 2 1000-yard rushers.
    And second, that still wouldn't be good enough to lead the league.

    Just sayin' that optimism is good - I'm really excited about the Vikings rushing attack this season, for sure - but BLIND optimism will only set you up for disappointment.

    =Z=
    Take out Vick's 1000 yard season and our RBs last season are right in there with ATL.
    And now that we have AP, he gives CT a legitimate 1000-yard compliment (much like Turner complimented LT).

    I seriously doubt that we will be #1 in rushing...BUT we will be right up there with the leaders.
    BESIDES...Vick's 1000 yards were in lieu of his underwhelming passing stats...so it's a wash!
    Zeus is right, #1 is a bit lofty. However, I expect around 150 rush ypg for us to have a successful offense. That puts us in the top 5.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
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  3. #13
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    "V" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    The Vikings did not do enough to address their lack of an obvious No. 1 receiver. Rice could emerge to fill that role, but he still is a rookie and the team needs at least one other receiver that would command respect from opposing defenses for being a constant big-play threat. Williamson certainly wasn't that guy last year. Free-agent newcomer Bobby Wade, formerly of the Tennessee Titans, primarily runs short and intermediate routes from the slot.
    Hopefully, Williamson can be that guy this year, otherwise I don't see our receiving corps being a deep threat. As stated, Wade runs short routes & Rice is a rookie.
    I'm so back and forth on this issue.

    On one hand, we should have the best running attack in the league. So good that our receivers can be average and still be good enough to support TJ and move the ball. We are obviously a run-oriented team. We have to run the ball effectively even when the D knows the run is coming. If that happens the receivers can be themselves (except for TWill of course, he needs to reinvent the wheel) and we'll still have an effective offense.

    On the other hand, a deep threat is definetly a missing piece in this offense. A guy like Chad Johnson or Joe Horn would be a perfect complement to our dynamic running attack. A WR so scary that the D can't put 8 in the box is last thing CT and AD need to both be 1,000 yard rushers.

    In the end it comes down to coaching. Childress has to do a better job of using his weapons this year. I think we all agree that he has more talent, and more talent means less excuses.
    V, take a look at this.
    Its a bit long and in PPT format but even a dumb old optimist like me can understand most of it.

    Basically it shows/highlights that we had better get used to a ball control, limited deep passing team in the WCO.

    Granted its there, and this doesn't quite match our version of the WCO, but not as prevelant as what we got used to in the Denny Era.

    http://www.sportscombine.com/thezone...iles/frame.htm
    Marrdro, I read the entire thing, but it has little to do with what I'm talking about because it does not talk about maximizing talent within the WCO. There are pass-happy WCOs and there are run-happy WCOs, and the difference is coaches using the strengths of their team within the scheme.

    I already expecting a ball control offense, and I never said I want us to pass more despite our great backs. A deep threat WR is not useless in a run oriented offense, he maximizes the damage that a running team can do because he cannot be left alone. Right now teams will be happy to play man and load the box until one of our receivers plays well enough to demand extra attention. How much we actually go downfield is moot so long as you have a burner who can scare every time he runs a streak.
    That was my last best chance at swaying you.
    All is lost in my efforts to convert you to the Chilly way.

    I have saved this thread and will dredge it up about half way through.
    I think then you will understand and see the light my friend.
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #14
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    I'm with Marrdro on this one. You don't need a long passing game -- just a threat of it is enough. Safeties can not leave ANY wide receiver not covered. So no matter if the guy is a great pass catcher or not, he still pulls the safety with him. That opens up the shorter passing game that Chilly loves. This will be another year of a grind it out offense. Just so they don't throw 3 yard passes when it's third and 9.
    Kentucky Vikes Fan

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  5. #15
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    "COJOMAY" wrote:
    I'm with Marrdro on this one. You don't need a long passing game -- just a threat of it is enough. Safeties can not leave ANY wide receiver not covered. So no matter if the guy is a great pass catcher or not, he still pulls the safety with him. That opens up the shorter passing game that Chilly loves. This will be another year of a grind it out offense. Just so they don't throw 3 yard passes when it's third and 9.
    I think I have dyxlexia or something because that is exactly what I have been saying this whole time, but somehow your with Marrdro.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
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  6. #16
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    True, but if our QB runs for 1000 yards, you better believe we're going to "count" them - have to give others the same graces we'd give ourselves.


    Trust me, I'm a doctor.

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  7. #17
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    "COJOMAY" wrote:
    I'm with Marrdro on this one. You don't need a long passing game -- just a threat of it is enough. Safeties can not leave ANY wide receiver not covered. So no matter if the guy is a great pass catcher or not, he still pulls the safety with him. That opens up the shorter passing game that Chilly loves. This will be another year of a grind it out offense. Just so they don't throw 3 yard passes when it's third and 9.
    Ok, I will bite on this one.

    How do you threaten someone with a deep passing game without actually having one? One advantage you get with a legitimate deep WR is that they need to roll a safety over to help the CB in his coverage. If the WR can't catch the ball they won't respect him and will roll the safety to another spot on the field and let the CB cover the WR with bad hands by himself.


    As far as what version of the WCO we are running, I am having a hard time with that one. You use whatever package is best suited to your talent. If you have one set of talent on your team and you put in a scheme that they are not going to be successful in,then it says alot about your coaching ability.

    When Bill Walsh brought the WCO into popularity, he ran it to take advantage of the players he had on the field at the time. When Montana first started he ran a ball control Offense that relied heavily on the TE and they ran a fullback and tailback and won the SB with "The catch" by someone who certainly didn't have a high madden speed rating.

    Jerry Rice and Taylor added another dimension and they were able then to insert crossing routes and deeper passes to take advantage of their talent. Also when they Had Roger Craig they utilized him in both the running and passing game and had alot of success. The niners then went from Montana to Young,who both were great but were very different,and contunued to win superbowls.

    How did they do this? Because they were able to locate talent with potential and then would develop a game plan that took advantage of the talent they had at their disposal. If a player went down they did not have to scrap the season until they found another player that fit their system, they just plugged the player in and tweaked the plays they called.

    Now I am not saying that Childress will not be successful, but I will say that with the way free agency and injuries change rosters on a constant basis, if he needs a certain type of player at each position to be successful, he is going to have a tough row to hoe.

  8. #18
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "COJOMAY" wrote:
    I'm with Marrdro on this one. You don't need a long passing game -- just a threat of it is enough. Safeties can not leave ANY wide receiver not covered. So no matter if the guy is a great pass catcher or not, he still pulls the safety with him. That opens up the shorter passing game that Chilly loves. This will be another year of a grind it out offense. Just so they don't throw 3 yard passes when it's third and 9.
    Ok, I will bite on this one.

    How do you threaten someone with a deep passing game without actually having one? One advantage you get with a legitimate deep WR is that they need to roll a safety over to help the CB in his coverage. If the WR can't catch the ball they won't respect him and will roll the safety to another spot on the field and let the CB cover the WR with bad hands by himself.


    As far as what version of the WCO we are running, I am having a hard time with that one. You use whatever package is best suited to your talent. If you have one set of talent on your team and you put in a scheme that they are not going to be successful in,then it says alot about your coaching ability.

    When Bill Walsh brought the WCO into popularity, he ran it to take advantage of the players he had on the field at the time. When Montana first started he ran a ball control Offense that relied heavily on the TE and they ran a fullback and tailback and won the SB with "The catch" by someone who certainly didn't have a high madden speed rating.

    Jerry Rice and Taylor added another dimension and they were able then to insert crossing routes and deeper passes to take advantage of their talent. Also when they Had Roger Craig they utilized him in both the running and passing game and had alot of success. The niners then went from Montana to Young,who both were great but were very different,and contunued to win superbowls.

    How did they do this? Because they were able to locate talent with potential and then would develop a game plan that took advantage of the talent they had at their disposal. If a player went down they did not have to scrap the season until they found another player that fit their system, they just plugged the player in and tweaked the plays they called.

    Now I am not saying that Childress will not be successful, but I will say that with the way free agency and injuries change rosters on a constant basis, if he needs a certain type of player at each position to be successful, he is going to have a tough row to hoe.

    Uffda you kindof make the same point I am making with one small deviation/difference of opinion.
    I believe that the 9'rs had players that matched the scheme vice adjusting the scheme to match the players.

    Take alook at the names you mentioned in your post.
    Most of them are guys that ran routes that were short to intermidate or a back out of the backfield.
    All of the players also had two things in common, they could catch and they got huge yards after the catch. (YAC)

    Lets not forget that this type of attack also helps open up the running game which then opened up the deep ball.

    The key again here is that they had players on the field the fit the scheme and not so much adjusted the scheme to the talent.

    (Note:
    I know that adjustments have to be made and all coaches will make adjustments but they should be small tweaks to the scheme as to exploit the opposing teams D and not drastic changes because of talent on the field.
    That should be done in OTA's/Mini-camp etc).
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #19
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    I have an oversimplistic concept of the upcoming season.

    The defenses will put 8 in the box in an attempt to stop our running game and make our qb beat them with his arm.

    The offenses will spread the Vikings defense out and pass,pass,pass.

    That is how it will start.

    I think the passing game will improve quite a lot if the O-line can block,period.
    The short ball control passing game will be good for a qb with little experience. But I think the long pass will open up also this year if the line can block.
    If the passing game comes around,the running game will be incredible!

    The defense will improve with a better pass rush.I just hope they don't have to gamble too much to get one.

    This will be the year we see if it is play calling or execution IMO !
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
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  10. #20
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    Re: Offseason update: Minnesota Vikings

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "COJOMAY" wrote:
    I'm with Marrdro on this one. You don't need a long passing game -- just a threat of it is enough. Safeties can not leave ANY wide receiver not covered. So no matter if the guy is a great pass catcher or not, he still pulls the safety with him. That opens up the shorter passing game that Chilly loves. This will be another year of a grind it out offense. Just so they don't throw 3 yard passes when it's third and 9.
    Ok, I will bite on this one.

    How do you threaten someone with a deep passing game without actually having one? One advantage you get with a legitimate deep WR is that they need to roll a safety over to help the CB in his coverage. If the WR can't catch the ball they won't respect him and will roll the safety to another spot on the field and let the CB cover the WR with bad hands by himself.


    As far as what version of the WCO we are running, I am having a hard time with that one. You use whatever package is best suited to your talent. If you have one set of talent on your team and you put in a scheme that they are not going to be successful in,then it says alot about your coaching ability.

    When Bill Walsh brought the WCO into popularity, he ran it to take advantage of the players he had on the field at the time. When Montana first started he ran a ball control Offense that relied heavily on the TE and they ran a fullback and tailback and won the SB with "The catch" by someone who certainly didn't have a high madden speed rating.

    Jerry Rice and Taylor added another dimension and they were able then to insert crossing routes and deeper passes to take advantage of their talent. Also when they Had Roger Craig they utilized him in both the running and passing game and had alot of success. The niners then went from Montana to Young,who both were great but were very different,and contunued to win superbowls.

    How did they do this? Because they were able to locate talent with potential and then would develop a game plan that took advantage of the talent they had at their disposal. If a player went down they did not have to scrap the season until they found another player that fit their system, they just plugged the player in and tweaked the plays they called.

    Now I am not saying that Childress will not be successful, but I will say that with the way free agency and injuries change rosters on a constant basis, if he needs a certain type of player at each position to be successful, he is going to have a tough row to hoe.
    Uffda you kindof make the same point I am making with one small deviation/difference of opinion.
    I believe that the 9'rs had players that matched the scheme vice adjusting the scheme to match the players.

    Take alook at the names you mentioned in your post.
    Most of them are guys that ran routes that were short to intermidate or a back out of the backfield.
    All of the players also had two things in common, they could catch and they got huge yards after the catch. (YAC)

    Lets not forget that this type of attack also helps open up the running game which then opened up the deep ball.

    The key again here is that they had players on the field the fit the scheme and not so much adjusted the scheme to the talent.

    (Note:
    I know that adjustments have to be made and all coaches will make adjustments but they should be small tweaks to the scheme as to exploit the opposing teams D and not drastic changes because of talent on the field.
    That should be done in OTA's/Mini-camp etc).

    we probably aren't that far off, but when you say they had players that fit there scheme instead of schemes that fit their players, then how do you explain the transition from Montana to Young? Not only were their styles and talents different, but they even threw with different arms, which meant responsibilities in blocking assignments were completely reversed when they went to Young. The transition from the duo of Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark to Rice and Taylor also had differences in what they brought to the field. While they all had talent unique to themselves, they certainly didn't fit some cookie cutter definition of a certain skill set for their position. For RB's you went from the likes of Earl Cooper and Lenvil Elliot to the later
    tandem of Tom Rathmann and Roger Craig.

    In an interview that I watched with Bill Walsh, the one thing he said that stands out is that they would design plays around their players. He talked about how Montana had too many int's one year so his QB coach at the time (Mike Holmgren) looked back on the plays where Joe threw int's the year before and threw those plays out of the playbook. He also talked about how, when they got Roger Craig up to speed, that due to his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield, they were able to call more short screen passes and involve him in the passing game more than their backs had in the past.To me things like that are indicative of the coaching staff adjusting the scheme instead of vice versa.

    If you are talking about fitting the scheme being more about the players mental rather than their physical abilities, then I certainly can agree with it because that is the one thing that is necessary no matter what your physical gifts are.

    One thing that was mentioned by jargomcfargo that is certainly the case is that as the O-line goes,so does the season. We can win games and improve from last year if the line does it's job. If the line plays like last year we will be no better off.

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