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  1. #21
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093784
    Comeon, you have to look at how those INT's were manufactured. Trust me when I tell you this that the CB's were not up in a press look and picking the ball off. They were in either a quarters or halfs look with S help over the top in either a quarters or a cloud look.
    Who gives a crap whether they were lined up toe to toe or standing on their head experimenting with one hand clapping. The point is we used the T2 scheme and had more INT's. Yes, I believe they were put in a better formation and i also believe they were just better pass defenders than we have now. That is my point. But to say we run the T2 and thus we will not get INT's is absolutely ludicrous.

    Those INT's came from QB's running around for their life and making bad throws to DB's who weren't even close to recievers. In most cases it was because a certain MLB (the right player in the right position) tipped the ball and the DB was in the right place at the right time to catch it.
    Really? That is how all of those INT's in all of those years were produced? That has to be the most amazing stat in NFL history.

    My version is like this: we had better talent in the secondary and we had coaches that put them in a better position to be successful.....


    Watch the Steelers play. They don't run a traditional cover 2, but they do run a "Zone Press" version of a 3-4. Their INT production comes from the same type of pressure and tipped balls, not from ball hawking shut down CBs my friend.
    I understand that but could care less because we are not the steelers and are not running that defense. What I care about is we are getting less than 15 INT's a year on average and should be getting more like 25 on average.

    If you don't understand that, then don't even bother to respond. :P
    oops. Too late.:woohoo:

  2. #22
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093786
    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093772
    Marrdro.... I've seen enough dropped INTs by our awful secondary in the past 2-3 years to know that they are possible in this scheme.
    Think back on those dropped balls. How many of them were by a DB standing alone in his zone, not even close to a WR?

    I can think of 5 last year that were of that nature.
    Who cares how the INTs were manufactured? Fact is, they were playing in the T2 and had the opportunities to have quite a bit of INTs. Doesn't matter what they were doing
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  3. #23
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093807
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093786
    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093772
    Marrdro.... I've seen enough dropped INTs by our awful secondary in the past 2-3 years to know that they are possible in this scheme.
    Think back on those dropped balls. How many of them were by a DB standing alone in his zone, not even close to a WR?

    I can think of 5 last year that were of that nature.
    Who cares how the INTs were manufactured? Fact is, they were playing in the T2 and had the opportunities to have quite a bit of INTs. Doesn't matter what they were doing
    From what I gather this is how things went down during those plays:

    The CB is in great position

    The QB makes a throw in the general direction

    The CB starts towards the ball

    A light bulb comes on in his head and he remembers that he is playing in the cover 2 so he isn't suppose to get INT's

    He lets the ball sail harmlessly past him.

    he goes to the sideline and chilly says: Good job- That is exactly the way we draw it up.

  4. #24
    jessejames09's Avatar
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093770
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093764
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093697
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093696
    One thing I like about your analysis of Ray, it's not a popularity contest. Ray wont be noted as a fan favorite. But he can play.
    He may not hold up but he's done a fine job so far.
    Agree. I, like you, look at other things, especially when you talk LDE's, other than sacks to base my opinion of how well a cat plays.

    Ray, IMHO, has played his ass off over there and hasn't beyyyatched a bit about that role (i.e Haynesworth).

    Only knock I have on Ray is that he was roiding up. Again, I relate/attribute that to his frame really better being suited to the RDE role.

    Others see his lack of sacks and say he sucks or doesn't play to their expectations.

    Preaching to the choir here bro.. I've been looking for a pocket collapsing/penetrating DT for the last couple years.
    I hear ya, got you on that spreadsheet. By the way, that spreadsheet isn't as full as the one were everyone keeps asking to upgrade CB's to fix things instead of fixing that which is really wrong.
    I guess i am on the other spreadsheet then because even when we were getting pressure up the middle the WRs we faced were catching passes uncontested.
    Lets not forget the premise behind what a CB is asked to do in the Cover 2......

    Let the reciever catch the ball in front of him, close for the tackle, limit YAC.

    They are not asked to go out and get INT's. Not part of the scheme.

    BTW Quick Question:

    How many INT's have we gotten out of the secondary in the past 5 years and is that number trending up or down?(Don't include any INT's from Sharper because we know he sucked )
    Sharp was a prime example of what DB's are asked to do in the cover 2 scheme. He got very few and then, when he left he racked up a bunch.

    Long story short, you want to see INT's by our DB's, you have to change the scheme.
    Not true, at all. Tampa in 2002-2003, John Gruden challenged that Defence to score and they did. All the way to a Superbowl win.

    Or how about the bears I'd say between 04 and 07 that was probably the most vaunted defence in the league at that point. And they forced turnovers, a lot of them.

    Both played the cover 2. Our issues in the backfield are lack of depth at cb and talent at safety. Not scheme.

  5. #25
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1093847
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093770
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093764
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093697
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093696
    One thing I like about your analysis of Ray, it's not a popularity contest. Ray wont be noted as a fan favorite. But he can play.
    He may not hold up but he's done a fine job so far.
    Agree. I, like you, look at other things, especially when you talk LDE's, other than sacks to base my opinion of how well a cat plays.

    Ray, IMHO, has played his ass off over there and hasn't beyyyatched a bit about that role (i.e Haynesworth).

    Only knock I have on Ray is that he was roiding up. Again, I relate/attribute that to his frame really better being suited to the RDE role.

    Others see his lack of sacks and say he sucks or doesn't play to their expectations.

    Preaching to the choir here bro.. I've been looking for a pocket collapsing/penetrating DT for the last couple years.
    I hear ya, got you on that spreadsheet. By the way, that spreadsheet isn't as full as the one were everyone keeps asking to upgrade CB's to fix things instead of fixing that which is really wrong.
    I guess i am on the other spreadsheet then because even when we were getting pressure up the middle the WRs we faced were catching passes uncontested.
    Lets not forget the premise behind what a CB is asked to do in the Cover 2......

    Let the reciever catch the ball in front of him, close for the tackle, limit YAC.

    They are not asked to go out and get INT's. Not part of the scheme.

    BTW Quick Question:

    How many INT's have we gotten out of the secondary in the past 5 years and is that number trending up or down?(Don't include any INT's from Sharper because we know he sucked )
    Sharp was a prime example of what DB's are asked to do in the cover 2 scheme. He got very few and then, when he left he racked up a bunch.

    Long story short, you want to see INT's by our DB's, you have to change the scheme.
    Not true, at all. Tampa in 2002-2003, John Gruden challenged that Defence to score and they did. All the way to a Superbowl win.

    Or how about the bears I'd say between 04 and 07 that was probably the most vaunted defence in the league at that point. And they forced turnovers, a lot of them.

    Both played the cover 2. Our issues in the backfield are lack of depth at cb and talent at safety. Not scheme.
    You my friend are wise beyond your years. I just put put you in a new partition of my database.:laugh:

  6. #26
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093850
    Quote Originally Posted by "jessejames09" #1093847
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093770
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093764
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093697
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093696
    One thing I like about your analysis of Ray, it's not a popularity contest. Ray wont be noted as a fan favorite. But he can play.
    He may not hold up but he's done a fine job so far.
    Agree. I, like you, look at other things, especially when you talk LDE's, other than sacks to base my opinion of how well a cat plays.

    Ray, IMHO, has played his ass off over there and hasn't beyyyatched a bit about that role (i.e Haynesworth).

    Only knock I have on Ray is that he was roiding up. Again, I relate/attribute that to his frame really better being suited to the RDE role.

    Others see his lack of sacks and say he sucks or doesn't play to their expectations.

    Preaching to the choir here bro.. I've been looking for a pocket collapsing/penetrating DT for the last couple years.
    I hear ya, got you on that spreadsheet. By the way, that spreadsheet isn't as full as the one were everyone keeps asking to upgrade CB's to fix things instead of fixing that which is really wrong.
    I guess i am on the other spreadsheet then because even when we were getting pressure up the middle the WRs we faced were catching passes uncontested.
    Lets not forget the premise behind what a CB is asked to do in the Cover 2......

    Let the reciever catch the ball in front of him, close for the tackle, limit YAC.

    They are not asked to go out and get INT's. Not part of the scheme.

    BTW Quick Question:

    How many INT's have we gotten out of the secondary in the past 5 years and is that number trending up or down?(Don't include any INT's from Sharper because we know he sucked )
    Sharp was a prime example of what DB's are asked to do in the cover 2 scheme. He got very few and then, when he left he racked up a bunch.

    Long story short, you want to see INT's by our DB's, you have to change the scheme.
    Not true, at all. Tampa in 2002-2003, John Gruden challenged that Defence to score and they did. All the way to a Superbowl win.

    Or how about the bears I'd say between 04 and 07 that was probably the most vaunted defence in the league at that point. And they forced turnovers, a lot of them.

    Both played the cover 2. Our issues in the backfield are lack of depth at cb and talent at safety. Not scheme.
    You my friend are wise beyond your years. I just put put you in a new partition of my database.:laugh:
    +1
    That post says it all.

    One thing the Bears do, and in fact what Bud Grant always taught, was going for the strip as well as interceptions. Grant placed a high premium on turnovers.

    I haven't seen much of that in this team.

    My theory is this scheme is based upon fear rather than aggression.
    Fear of getting beat deep as the primary goal leads to passive play.

    They don't need to change the scheme as much as the way they play it.

    A scoring defense could go a long way toward helping an inexperienced QB.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  7. #27
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093803
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093784
    Comeon, you have to look at how those INT's were manufactured. Trust me when I tell you this that the CB's were not up in a press look and picking the ball off. They were in either a quarters or halfs look with S help over the top in either a quarters or a cloud look.
    Who gives a crap whether they were lined up toe to toe or standing on their head experimenting with one hand clapping. The point is we used the T2 scheme and had more INT's. Yes, I believe they were put in a better formation and i also believe they were just better pass defenders than we have now. That is my point. But to say we run the T2 and thus we will not get INT's is absolutely ludicrous.

    Those INT's came from QB's running around for their life and making bad throws to DB's who weren't even close to recievers. In most cases it was because a certain MLB (the right player in the right position) tipped the ball and the DB was in the right place at the right time to catch it.
    Really? That is how all of those INT's in all of those years were produced? That has to be the most amazing stat in NFL history.

    My version is like this: we had better talent in the secondary and we had coaches that put them in a better position to be successful.....


    Watch the Steelers play. They don't run a traditional cover 2, but they do run a "Zone Press" version of a 3-4. Their INT production comes from the same type of pressure and tipped balls, not from ball hawking shut down CBs my friend.
    I understand that but could care less because we are not the steelers and are not running that defense. What I care about is we are getting less than 15 INT's a year on average and should be getting more like 25 on average.

    If you don't understand that, then don't even bother to respond. :P
    oops. Too late.:woohoo:
    Agree with me or not, doesn't matter.

    All one has to do is look at how the team employs their DB's and you will see, we just don't try to get INT's like a team that plays "man/press" coverage.

    If you want to improve the percentage of INT's you have to change the scheme, and yes, the DB's being used to execute that scheme.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #28
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093798
    I don't like, but do understand the scheme and all, it could use some improvement.

    When The NFCN opponents all have potent passing attacks one would expect the defense to strengthen the rush and upgrade the defensive backfield or get used to last place.

    Only Winfield can catch better than TW but he gives so much cushion he's usually not in position to intercept.

    Case for upgrading at corner and safety is strong.

    BTW the Prince is a cover guy but has hands like TW, couldn't catch a cold in a pneumonia ward.
    We saw a bit more "Agressiveness" with our CB's when coach Pagac took over, just like we saw a bit more "agressiveness" with our DLmen and LB'rs.

    Lets hope that is a sign that he might try to shift to a "Zone Press" type of look.

    I know that when Griff was on the field, thats how they used him more times than not. I think Cook and Asher, especially Cook, can be used in that role as well.

    What they are not, however, are shut down corners. Aren't many of them in the league and thats why teams run zone coverages with their defensive schemes.

    Alas, not many people realize this and thats why all of them want to go out and put DB's out on an island and single them up on WR's. My thought on this, just like the desire to blitz LB's all the time, is that to many play Madden and think that just cause it works that "Game" it will work in the real "Game". :laugh:
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #29
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093807
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093786
    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093772
    Marrdro.... I've seen enough dropped INTs by our awful secondary in the past 2-3 years to know that they are possible in this scheme.
    Think back on those dropped balls. How many of them were by a DB standing alone in his zone, not even close to a WR?

    I can think of 5 last year that were of that nature.
    Who cares how the INTs were manufactured? Fact is, they were playing in the T2 and had the opportunities to have quite a bit of INTs. Doesn't matter what they were doing
    Who cares? Comeon my friend, it is a direct point in the discussion.

    If they were in "Blanket" coverage and missed them, it would be one thing, but if they were "Standing in a zone" (several were this year) it would be another.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #30
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093811
    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093807
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093786
    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093772
    Marrdro.... I've seen enough dropped INTs by our awful secondary in the past 2-3 years to know that they are possible in this scheme.
    Think back on those dropped balls. How many of them were by a DB standing alone in his zone, not even close to a WR?

    I can think of 5 last year that were of that nature.
    Who cares how the INTs were manufactured? Fact is, they were playing in the T2 and had the opportunities to have quite a bit of INTs. Doesn't matter what they were doing
    From what I gather this is how things went down during those plays:

    The CB is in great position

    The QB makes a throw in the general direction

    The CB starts towards the ball

    A light bulb comes on in his head and he remembers that he is playing in the cover 2 so he isn't suppose to get INT's

    He lets the ball sail harmlessly past him.

    he goes to the sideline and chilly says: Good job- That is exactly the way we draw it up.
    Help me lord......

    How about reality......

    a. The DB is standing/working in his zone watching the recievers get into their routes, paying close attention to the stem of that route to determine what zone they will go into when they come out of their breaks. Sometimes they are actually watching 2 and 3 recievers do this.

    b. The QB makes a throw and it is tipped, batted, or just flat out right at the DB.

    c. At the last instant the DB turns his head and whap, theres a ball coming at him and he drops it.

    Or, we could go ahead and believe it works the way you just said it did.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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