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  1. #11
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093696
    One thing I like about your analysis of Ray, it's not a popularity contest. Ray wont be noted as a fan favorite. But he can play.
    He may not hold up but he's done a fine job so far.
    Agree. I, like you, look at other things, especially when you talk LDE's, other than sacks to base my opinion of how well a cat plays.

    Ray, IMHO, has played his ass off over there and hasn't beyyyatched a bit about that role (i.e Haynesworth).

    Only knock I have on Ray is that he was roiding up. Again, I relate/attribute that to his frame really better being suited to the RDE role.

    Others see his lack of sacks and say he sucks or doesn't play to their expectations.

    Preaching to the choir here bro.. I've been looking for a pocket collapsing/penetrating DT for the last couple years.
    I hear ya, got you on that spreadsheet. By the way, that spreadsheet isn't as full as the one were everyone keeps asking to upgrade CB's to fix things instead of fixing that which is really wrong.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #12
    jargomcfargo's Avatar
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093697
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093696
    One thing I like about your analysis of Ray, it's not a popularity contest. Ray wont be noted as a fan favorite. But he can play.
    He may not hold up but he's done a fine job so far.
    Agree. I, like you, look at other things, especially when you talk LDE's, other than sacks to base my opinion of how well a cat plays.

    Ray, IMHO, has played his ass off over there and hasn't beyyyatched a bit about that role (i.e Haynesworth).

    Only knock I have on Ray is that he was roiding up. Again, I relate/attribute that to his frame really better being suited to the RDE role.

    Others see his lack of sacks and say he sucks or doesn't play to their expectations.

    Preaching to the choir here bro.. I've been looking for a pocket collapsing/penetrating DT for the last couple years.
    I hear ya, got you on that spreadsheet. By the way, that spreadsheet isn't as full as the one were everyone keeps asking to upgrade CB's to fix things instead of fixing that which is really wrong.
    It's really pretty simple isn't it?

    The cover 2 doesn't work without pressure up front. The ends aren't nearly as effective without pressure up the middle.

    I think of guys like Page, Millard, and Randall as the good old days.
    Randall and Henry Thomas were similar to the Williams wall. The only difference is that KW is no Randall and has quite truthfully declined a bit.
    We know about Ray's suspension, but was there more to the starcaps thing than we want to admit?

    One thing I like about Ray's play is his ability to play the run first and still get pressure. Robison quite frankly can't do that. Robison is really a RE. So is Ray but he has adapted.

    As far as CB are concerned, unlike you, I don't think Asher is good enough. I also have concerns about both Griff and Cook coming off injury as well as Cook's gun charge.
    If the version we heard is wrong, Cook could do time.
    I hope we don't have to rely on another Lito Smoot this year.

    BTW, I'm still high on Phil Taylor if he would slip to us in the second round and we don't take a tackle in the first.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  3. #13
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093697
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093696
    One thing I like about your analysis of Ray, it's not a popularity contest. Ray wont be noted as a fan favorite. But he can play.
    He may not hold up but he's done a fine job so far.
    Agree. I, like you, look at other things, especially when you talk LDE's, other than sacks to base my opinion of how well a cat plays.

    Ray, IMHO, has played his ass off over there and hasn't beyyyatched a bit about that role (i.e Haynesworth).

    Only knock I have on Ray is that he was roiding up. Again, I relate/attribute that to his frame really better being suited to the RDE role.

    Others see his lack of sacks and say he sucks or doesn't play to their expectations.

    Preaching to the choir here bro.. I've been looking for a pocket collapsing/penetrating DT for the last couple years.
    I hear ya, got you on that spreadsheet. By the way, that spreadsheet isn't as full as the one were everyone keeps asking to upgrade CB's to fix things instead of fixing that which is really wrong.
    I guess i am on the other spreadsheet then because even when we were getting pressure up the middle the WRs we faced were catching passes uncontested.

    BTW Quick Question:

    How many INT's have we gotten out of the secondary in the past 5 years and is that number trending up or down?(Don't include any INT's from Sharper because we know he sucked )

  4. #14
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093760
    It's really pretty simple isn't it?

    The cover 2 doesn't work without pressure up front. The ends aren't nearly as effective without pressure up the middle.

    I think of guys like Page, Millard, and Randall as the good old days.
    Randall and Henry Thomas were similar to the Williams wall. The only difference is that KW is no Randall and has quite truthfully declined a bit.
    Throw Mr. Jerry Ball in there. He and John were a site to watch. First time I saw a NT play the 0 Tech/cocked in a 4-3. I loved to watch him work out of that alignemnt.

    We know about Ray's suspension, but was there more to the starcaps thing than we want to admit?
    Do you really want my opinion? Even JA's production seems to have dropped a bit of late. If one were to ponder it long enough you could come to the conclusion that they were all juicing...


    One thing I like about Ray's play is his ability to play the run first and still get pressure. Robison quite frankly can't do that. Robison is really a RE. So is Ray but he has adapted.
    Agree. Most choose to ignore the little stat about how high he has been ranked the last 3 years or so in that catagory.

    As far as CB are concerned, unlike you, I don't think Asher is good enough. I also have concerns about both Griff and Cook coming off injury as well as Cook's gun charge.
    If the version we heard is wrong, Cook could do time.
    I hope we don't have to rely on another Lito Smoot this year.
    The rumors have stopped on the Cook deal. I think because he was just carrying a gun and wasn't brandishing it, as I surmised in a thread a few weeks ago. Atleast thats what most of the local papers were saying.

    As to AA, he isn't good enough if you are looking at him from a pure "Cover/shutdown" corner standpoint, but I see alot of Griff in him as he as grown over the last couple of years. This year will be a breakout year for him.

    Get Griff, Cook and Asher all on the field at the same time and I think we would have a nice group.

    BTW, I'm still high on Phil Taylor if he would slip to us in the second round and we don't take a tackle in the first.
    I don't think Talyor makes it past the Bores at 29 in the first. Might even go higher now that Fairley is slipping.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #15
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093764
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1093697
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1093696
    One thing I like about your analysis of Ray, it's not a popularity contest. Ray wont be noted as a fan favorite. But he can play.
    He may not hold up but he's done a fine job so far.
    Agree. I, like you, look at other things, especially when you talk LDE's, other than sacks to base my opinion of how well a cat plays.

    Ray, IMHO, has played his ass off over there and hasn't beyyyatched a bit about that role (i.e Haynesworth).

    Only knock I have on Ray is that he was roiding up. Again, I relate/attribute that to his frame really better being suited to the RDE role.

    Others see his lack of sacks and say he sucks or doesn't play to their expectations.

    Preaching to the choir here bro.. I've been looking for a pocket collapsing/penetrating DT for the last couple years.
    I hear ya, got you on that spreadsheet. By the way, that spreadsheet isn't as full as the one were everyone keeps asking to upgrade CB's to fix things instead of fixing that which is really wrong.
    I guess i am on the other spreadsheet then because even when we were getting pressure up the middle the WRs we faced were catching passes uncontested.
    Lets not forget the premise behind what a CB is asked to do in the Cover 2......

    Let the reciever catch the ball in front of him, close for the tackle, limit YAC.

    They are not asked to go out and get INT's. Not part of the scheme.

    BTW Quick Question:

    How many INT's have we gotten out of the secondary in the past 5 years and is that number trending up or down?(Don't include any INT's from Sharper because we know he sucked )
    Sharp was a prime example of what DB's are asked to do in the cover 2 scheme. He got very few and then, when he left he racked up a bunch.

    Long story short, you want to see INT's by our DB's, you have to change the scheme.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #16
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Marrdro.... I've seen enough dropped INTs by our awful secondary in the past 2-3 years to know that they are possible in this scheme.
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  7. #17
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    [quote Marrdro wrote:]Lets not forget the premise behind what a CB is asked to do in the Cover 2......

    Let the reciever catch the ball in front of him, close for the tackle, limit YAC.

    They are not asked to go out and get INT's. Not part of the scheme.[/quote]

    Seriously? You are really going down that road?.
    OK- I'll bite on this. Lets look at the 1991 Vikings under burns. We had 17 team INT's that season. The next season when we brought in Dungy and his cover 2 defense that number jumped to 28 and stayed in the 20's during his time here.

    1991- 17 (Burns)
    92- 28
    93-24
    94-18
    95-25

    Now look at the T2 before and under Chiller:

    2005- 25 (Tice)
    06-21
    07-15
    08-12
    09-11
    10-15



    If you don't see the significance of that then I guess I would ask you to refrain from responding. The FACT is you can run a T2 and get INT's and while I understand that pressure from the DE's is a key elemant, we certainly have a more than capable DL that has given plenty of pressure( I could also post a sack-int ratio for you if you want to go down that road) but the play of our CB's has been underwhelming at best.

    You don't need to change the scheme to get more INT's- Just get better players and put them in better positions.

    You might also look at the INT numbers for Tampa after Dungy got there. The first few years were low until he got the players in the right positions and then the numbers went up into the high 20s again just like he did in Minnesota.

    I rest my case.

  8. #18
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1093777
    [quote Marrdro wrote:]Lets not forget the premise behind what a CB is asked to do in the Cover 2......

    Let the reciever catch the ball in front of him, close for the tackle, limit YAC.

    They are not asked to go out and get INT's. Not part of the scheme.
    Seriously? You are really going down that road?.
    OK- I'll bite on this. Lets look at the 1991 Vikings under burns. We had 17 team INT's that season. The next season when we brought in Dungy and his cover 2 defense that number jumped to 28 and stayed in the 20's during his time here.

    1991- 17 (Burns)
    92- 28
    93-24
    94-18
    95-25

    Now look at the T2 before and under Chiller:

    2005- 25 (Tice)
    06-21
    07-15
    08-12
    09-11
    10-15



    If you don't see the significance of that then I guess I would ask you to refrain from responding. The FACT is you can run a T2 and get INT's and while I understand that pressure from the DE's is a key elemant, we certainly have a more than capable DL that has given plenty of pressure( I could also post a sack-int ratio for you if you want to go down that road) but the play of our CB's has been underwhelming at best.

    You don't need to change the scheme to get more INT's- Just get better players and put them in better positions.

    You might also look at the INT numbers for Tampa after Dungy got there. The first few years were low until he got the players in the right positions and then the numbers went up into the high 20s again just like he did in Minnesota.

    I rest my case.[/quote]
    Comeon, you have to look at how those INT's were manufactured. Trust me when I tell you this that the CB's were not up in a press look and picking the ball off. They were in either a quarters or halfs look with S help over the top in either a quarters or a cloud look.

    Those INT's came from QB's running around for their life and making bad throws to DB's who weren't even close to recievers. In most cases it was because a certain MLB (the right player in the right position) tipped the ball and the DB was in the right place at the right time to catch it.

    Watch the Steelers play. They don't run a traditional cover 2, but they do run a "Zone Press" version of a 3-4. Their INT production comes from the same type of pressure and tipped balls, not from ball hawking shut down CBs my friend.

    If you don't understand that, then don't even bother to respond. :P
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #19
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    Quote Originally Posted by "12purplepride28" #1093772
    Marrdro.... I've seen enough dropped INTs by our awful secondary in the past 2-3 years to know that they are possible in this scheme.
    Think back on those dropped balls. How many of them were by a DB standing alone in his zone, not even close to a WR?

    I can think of 5 last year that were of that nature.

    Again, you don't ask your DB's to provide blanket coverage like the Jets do. You ask them to line up, off the WR, in a quarters look and step into lanes when the QB makes a bad throw.

    Same same applies to the LB'rs with respect to short slants and such. They aren't running with the reciever, they are stepping into lanes and catching the ball when the QB throws under pressure.

    If he doesn't then you ask him to close on the WR, make the tackle and limit YAC.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #20
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    Re: Music to Marrdro's Ears (Twist in McShay's draft)

    I don't like, but do understand the scheme and all, it could use some improvement.

    When The NFCN opponents all have potent passing attacks one would expect the defense to strengthen the rush and upgrade the defensive backfield or get used to last place.

    Only Winfield can catch better than TW but he gives so much cushion he's usually not in position to intercept.

    Case for upgrading at corner and safety is strong.

    BTW the Prince is a cover guy but has hands like TW, couldn't catch a cold in a pneumonia ward.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

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