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  1. #51
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094516
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1094501
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094471
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1094458
    BPA Regardless of position, if they pick at 12.

    I'd hate for them to reach for a QB at 12 who's slated to go late first or second round. If their hearts set at taking a QB in the first, trade up or down to make it happen where the player is worth the pick.

    With FA not beginning until after the draft, we are in a bad situation. We certainly can't bank on getting a damn good QB out of this years QB FA pool and they certainly shouldn't be banking on getting McNabb or Kolb when they aren't even FA's.
    Our FO rarely drafts BPA... We draft for need. Sometimes that goes together but.... it's never purely BPA.
    Adrian Peterson comes to mind.

    With as many voids or holes that the Vikings have needed to fill come draft day, BPA (which is arguable) has filled a lot of those needs. K-Will & Greenway etc..
    Greenway wasn't BPA. Infact I beleive Peterson is the last time we went BPA.
    We've only had 1 first round selection since AD & that was in 2009 when we took Percy Harvin at 22.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  2. #52
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094526
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094517
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1094512
    What is it about Gabbert that makes him so much better than Locker? Or, for that matter, Mallet or Ponder or Kaepernick? ALL of the QBs coming out this year have question marks. ALL of them are considered developmental guys. And most of them played in non-NFL style systems.

    So, I'm not saying, "absolutely don't trade up," just that we do have other needs, and I'm far from convinced that moving up 6 slots will help us more than moving back and gaining a pick instead when the players seem to me to be pretty durn close in ability anyway.

    Besides, most mockers think the top two guys are going to be gone before the fifth pick. I think Cam goes No.1 cuz he's the athlete with the most potential who has the history of winning and will sell the most jerseys/give fans hope again. Clausen seems like a career backup to me. Then, even the Broncos have been checking QBs and all of the teams picking 3-5 need one badly. If Gabbert is there at 5, he will most likely be a Cardinal, and I don't see either making it to 6.

    Sorry to rain on your parade, but it just doesn't look like trading up is going to have much chance of helping us in this situation.
    I agree with you.

    Here is a tidbit on trading up to get a QB:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6299577

    Here's the scary part, though. There have been five "trade-ups" (moving into the first round) for quarterbacks since 2003, and none have really worked out.

    In 2003, the Ravens, who passed on Byron Leftwich with their first-round pick to take Terrell Suggs, traded up from 41 to 19 to draft Kyle Boller. They gave up a first-round pick in 2004 to make the move. After that didn't work out, the Ravens eventually had to trade for Steve McNair a few years later and finally fixed the long search for a franchise quarterback by trading up from 26 to 18 for Joe Flacco.

    In 2004, the Buffalo Bills moved from the second round (No. 43) to No. 22 to get J.P. Losman. They gave up a 2005 first-rounder for the jump. Since then, they've tried Trent Edwards, Ryan Fitzpatrick and others and may finally resolve the issue this year if they get Newton or Gabbert. The 2004 draft was a great one for quarterbacks -- Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger and Matt Schaub. Losman was the fourth of the four first-rounders taken that year. It didn't work out.

    In 2005, the Redskins moved from the third-round (pick 76) to draft Jason Campbell at No. 25. They gave up a No. 1 and No. 4 pick in 2006. Owner Dan Snyder got 52 starts out of Campbell but never felt he was an elite quarterback. He shipped him off to Oakland, and the Redskins, after taking a one-year flyer on Donovan McNabb, still are in the market for a quarterback.

    In 2007, the Cleveland Browns set themselves back for years by trading up for Brady Quinn. They moved from No. 36 to No. 22, giving up a first-round pick in 2008. They tried Quinn and Derek Anderson for a couple years without success. Enter Eric Mangini. Mangini stayed with Quinn and Anderson as the quarterbacks in 2009 and started trading down from the fifth pick in the first round. They were involved in trades that gave the Jets Mark Sanchez and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman. Sanchez has been to two AFC title games and Freeman is on the verge of becoming an elite quarterback.

    In 2010, Josh McDaniels shocked the league by moving from the 43rd selection to 25 to take Tim Tebow. He gave up third- and fourth-round picks. McDaniels is gone as head coach and head talent evaluator. John Elway has taken over and conceded the Broncos don't have a franchise quarterback unless Elway comes out of retirement.

    Interestingly he left out the move the Broncos made to get Cutler in the 2006 draft,which was a good move initially and one I would consider worth the cost but we are still talking about a rare occurrence and one the needs to be weighed very carefully before pulling the trigger.
    What a terrible article. We aren't talking about trading up to select the 3 or 4th best Qb in the draft. We are talking about moving up to select the a QB that most have either 1 or 2. Huge difference. The article also doesn't consider the team itself. The ravens traded up and selected Boller but had nothing on Offense to help him with. Care to name their WRS? Travis Taylor.....yes that Travis Taylor..hmy:

    We aren't the Skins, Browns or Ravens. We have talent on offense that will make our QB's life easier.
    OK

    Then how many teams have traded up to take the first QB in a draft in the history of the league and how many times did it work out? If that was such an easy task it would happen all of the time.

  3. #53
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094529
    If Gabbert doesn't go to Carolina, he very well could drop out of the top 5.

    Teams up there who are looking for QB's are:
    1. Carolina
    3. Buffalo
    4. Bengals
    5. Cardinals
    7. 49ers
    8. Titans

    IMO, Carolina would be wise to get something else, maybe Peterson, and take their luck at getting luck (wordplay intended). Buffalo has a LOT of needs, and Fitzpatrick has been playing some decent ball there. THey could very well pass on QB. Bengals are interesting, with losing TO, and talk of possibly even Ocho, they'l lhave alot of holes to fix her.e Line, WR, Defense, QB. They likely take a run at Gabbert or Newton here. I can't see Newton being Marvin's guy in Cincy. He seems like a guy who doesn't give in to players shenanegins, as shown every year by Ocho and now Palmer making a stir. Cardinals at 5 are a likely QB candidate as well, and convincing them to trade will be difficult. However, everybody has their price. If 5 comes along and one or both of those QB's are still on the board, we have to at least poke around and see if ther'es interest.

    Hell, we could even maybe work a way to get a 3rd rounder back.

    Say, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th for 1st and 3rd. We have something like 9 or 10 picks this draft, we can afford to move around a little bit.

    Then, from there, we can go right back and trade down in the third, acquire another fourth or fifth, not all is lost.
    He should still be there at 25. He is not a top 5 franchise player and giving up picks to get up there to draft him is just not going to happen. Mark it down.

  4. #54
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094534
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094526
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094517
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1094512
    What is it about Gabbert that makes him so much better than Locker? Or, for that matter, Mallet or Ponder or Kaepernick? ALL of the QBs coming out this year have question marks. ALL of them are considered developmental guys. And most of them played in non-NFL style systems.

    So, I'm not saying, "absolutely don't trade up," just that we do have other needs, and I'm far from convinced that moving up 6 slots will help us more than moving back and gaining a pick instead when the players seem to me to be pretty durn close in ability anyway.

    Besides, most mockers think the top two guys are going to be gone before the fifth pick. I think Cam goes No.1 cuz he's the athlete with the most potential who has the history of winning and will sell the most jerseys/give fans hope again. Clausen seems like a career backup to me. Then, even the Broncos have been checking QBs and all of the teams picking 3-5 need one badly. If Gabbert is there at 5, he will most likely be a Cardinal, and I don't see either making it to 6.

    Sorry to rain on your parade, but it just doesn't look like trading up is going to have much chance of helping us in this situation.
    I agree with you.

    Here is a tidbit on trading up to get a QB:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6299577

    Here's the scary part, though. There have been five "trade-ups" (moving into the first round) for quarterbacks since 2003, and none have really worked out.

    In 2003, the Ravens, who passed on Byron Leftwich with their first-round pick to take Terrell Suggs, traded up from 41 to 19 to draft Kyle Boller. They gave up a first-round pick in 2004 to make the move. After that didn't work out, the Ravens eventually had to trade for Steve McNair a few years later and finally fixed the long search for a franchise quarterback by trading up from 26 to 18 for Joe Flacco.

    In 2004, the Buffalo Bills moved from the second round (No. 43) to No. 22 to get J.P. Losman. They gave up a 2005 first-rounder for the jump. Since then, they've tried Trent Edwards, Ryan Fitzpatrick and others and may finally resolve the issue this year if they get Newton or Gabbert. The 2004 draft was a great one for quarterbacks -- Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger and Matt Schaub. Losman was the fourth of the four first-rounders taken that year. It didn't work out.

    In 2005, the Redskins moved from the third-round (pick 76) to draft Jason Campbell at No. 25. They gave up a No. 1 and No. 4 pick in 2006. Owner Dan Snyder got 52 starts out of Campbell but never felt he was an elite quarterback. He shipped him off to Oakland, and the Redskins, after taking a one-year flyer on Donovan McNabb, still are in the market for a quarterback.

    In 2007, the Cleveland Browns set themselves back for years by trading up for Brady Quinn. They moved from No. 36 to No. 22, giving up a first-round pick in 2008. They tried Quinn and Derek Anderson for a couple years without success. Enter Eric Mangini. Mangini stayed with Quinn and Anderson as the quarterbacks in 2009 and started trading down from the fifth pick in the first round. They were involved in trades that gave the Jets Mark Sanchez and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman. Sanchez has been to two AFC title games and Freeman is on the verge of becoming an elite quarterback.

    In 2010, Josh McDaniels shocked the league by moving from the 43rd selection to 25 to take Tim Tebow. He gave up third- and fourth-round picks. McDaniels is gone as head coach and head talent evaluator. John Elway has taken over and conceded the Broncos don't have a franchise quarterback unless Elway comes out of retirement.

    Interestingly he left out the move the Broncos made to get Cutler in the 2006 draft,which was a good move initially and one I would consider worth the cost but we are still talking about a rare occurrence and one the needs to be weighed very carefully before pulling the trigger.
    What a terrible article. We aren't talking about trading up to select the 3 or 4th best Qb in the draft. We are talking about moving up to select the a QB that most have either 1 or 2. Huge difference. The article also doesn't consider the team itself. The ravens traded up and selected Boller but had nothing on Offense to help him with. Care to name their WRS? Travis Taylor.....yes that Travis Taylor..hmy:

    We aren't the Skins, Browns or Ravens. We have talent on offense that will make our QB's life easier.
    OK

    Then how many teams have traded up to take the first QB in a draft in the history of the league and how many times did it work out? If that was such an easy task it would happen all of the time.
    Well since about 2002... the 1st pic of the draft has become a double edge sword.. you get an elite talent but the price criples your team. So really we only have about 8 years to go on.

  5. #55
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094539
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094534
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094526
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094517
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1094512
    What is it about Gabbert that makes him so much better than Locker? Or, for that matter, Mallet or Ponder or Kaepernick? ALL of the QBs coming out this year have question marks. ALL of them are considered developmental guys. And most of them played in non-NFL style systems.

    So, I'm not saying, "absolutely don't trade up," just that we do have other needs, and I'm far from convinced that moving up 6 slots will help us more than moving back and gaining a pick instead when the players seem to me to be pretty durn close in ability anyway.

    Besides, most mockers think the top two guys are going to be gone before the fifth pick. I think Cam goes No.1 cuz he's the athlete with the most potential who has the history of winning and will sell the most jerseys/give fans hope again. Clausen seems like a career backup to me. Then, even the Broncos have been checking QBs and all of the teams picking 3-5 need one badly. If Gabbert is there at 5, he will most likely be a Cardinal, and I don't see either making it to 6.

    Sorry to rain on your parade, but it just doesn't look like trading up is going to have much chance of helping us in this situation.
    I agree with you.

    Here is a tidbit on trading up to get a QB:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6299577

    Here's the scary part, though. There have been five "trade-ups" (moving into the first round) for quarterbacks since 2003, and none have really worked out.

    In 2003, the Ravens, who passed on Byron Leftwich with their first-round pick to take Terrell Suggs, traded up from 41 to 19 to draft Kyle Boller. They gave up a first-round pick in 2004 to make the move. After that didn't work out, the Ravens eventually had to trade for Steve McNair a few years later and finally fixed the long search for a franchise quarterback by trading up from 26 to 18 for Joe Flacco.

    In 2004, the Buffalo Bills moved from the second round (No. 43) to No. 22 to get J.P. Losman. They gave up a 2005 first-rounder for the jump. Since then, they've tried Trent Edwards, Ryan Fitzpatrick and others and may finally resolve the issue this year if they get Newton or Gabbert. The 2004 draft was a great one for quarterbacks -- Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger and Matt Schaub. Losman was the fourth of the four first-rounders taken that year. It didn't work out.

    In 2005, the Redskins moved from the third-round (pick 76) to draft Jason Campbell at No. 25. They gave up a No. 1 and No. 4 pick in 2006. Owner Dan Snyder got 52 starts out of Campbell but never felt he was an elite quarterback. He shipped him off to Oakland, and the Redskins, after taking a one-year flyer on Donovan McNabb, still are in the market for a quarterback.

    In 2007, the Cleveland Browns set themselves back for years by trading up for Brady Quinn. They moved from No. 36 to No. 22, giving up a first-round pick in 2008. They tried Quinn and Derek Anderson for a couple years without success. Enter Eric Mangini. Mangini stayed with Quinn and Anderson as the quarterbacks in 2009 and started trading down from the fifth pick in the first round. They were involved in trades that gave the Jets Mark Sanchez and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman. Sanchez has been to two AFC title games and Freeman is on the verge of becoming an elite quarterback.

    In 2010, Josh McDaniels shocked the league by moving from the 43rd selection to 25 to take Tim Tebow. He gave up third- and fourth-round picks. McDaniels is gone as head coach and head talent evaluator. John Elway has taken over and conceded the Broncos don't have a franchise quarterback unless Elway comes out of retirement.

    Interestingly he left out the move the Broncos made to get Cutler in the 2006 draft,which was a good move initially and one I would consider worth the cost but we are still talking about a rare occurrence and one the needs to be weighed very carefully before pulling the trigger.
    What a terrible article. We aren't talking about trading up to select the 3 or 4th best Qb in the draft. We are talking about moving up to select the a QB that most have either 1 or 2. Huge difference. The article also doesn't consider the team itself. The ravens traded up and selected Boller but had nothing on Offense to help him with. Care to name their WRS? Travis Taylor.....yes that Travis Taylor..hmy:

    We aren't the Skins, Browns or Ravens. We have talent on offense that will make our QB's life easier.
    OK

    Then how many teams have traded up to take the first QB in a draft in the history of the league and how many times did it work out? If that was such an easy task it would happen all of the time.
    Well since about 2002... the 1st pic of the draft has become a double edge sword.. you get an elite talent but the price criples your team. So really we only have about 8 years to go on.
    And that is what you want to do plus losing another high draft pick?

    I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

  6. #56
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094400
    There are players you have to take regardless of need, if they fall to you.
    For me that list would include,

    Marcell Dareus DT
    Patrick Peterson CB
    Von Miller OLB
    AJ Green WR
    Julio Jones WR
    and maybe
    Prince Amukamara CB
    Nick Fairly DT
    Robert Quinn DE

    If there is at least 2 QB's taken in the first eleven, there is a fair chance one of these players will fall to us. That would be my pick; BPA.

    Otherwise I would take the BPA that also fills a need.
    Possibly,
    Cameron Jordan DE
    Aldon Smith DE
    Da'Quan Bowers DE
    Corey Liuget DT

    I don't have us picking a QB at 12 but would give strong consideration if Newton were available.
    I would be happy with any of those 4 my friend. I started a thread a while back about LB'rs at 12 were I though Aldon was a strong possibility.

    I still have that thought in the back of my mind.
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  7. #57
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094494
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094485
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094481
    Hell, I don't think that is exactly what I said but maybe start out by answering this one:
    How many picks are you willing to give up in order to move up to the top spot in the draft?
    The thing is, we don't need the top pick.

    If Carolina doesn't pick QB with #1, and one of Newton or Gabbert is around near 5, trading up is doable.

    Following the Draft pick value chart, we've got #12(1200) and #43(470), Those picks alone, by following the chart give us 1670 points, good enough for 6th pick, (5th pick is 1700, and probably not completely out of the question) If it cost us only two picks to get a guy like Gabbert, I'd say that's a no brainer.
    So basically what you are saying is that getting Gabbert is worth not having a single pick until the 4th?

    Yeah, that is really going to take us places.

    So from the 4th round forward we will be able to address the OL, Dl, Secondary, OLB etc with guys who will be on the roster and productive over the next few years? Good luck with that one.
    If your going to give up 12 and 43 why not just give them up for Kolb?
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  8. #58
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094555
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094494
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094485
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094481
    Hell, I don't think that is exactly what I said but maybe start out by answering this one:
    How many picks are you willing to give up in order to move up to the top spot in the draft?
    The thing is, we don't need the top pick.

    If Carolina doesn't pick QB with #1, and one of Newton or Gabbert is around near 5, trading up is doable.

    Following the Draft pick value chart, we've got #12(1200) and #43(470), Those picks alone, by following the chart give us 1670 points, good enough for 6th pick, (5th pick is 1700, and probably not completely out of the question) If it cost us only two picks to get a guy like Gabbert, I'd say that's a no brainer.
    So basically what you are saying is that getting Gabbert is worth not having a single pick until the 4th?

    Yeah, that is really going to take us places.

    So from the 4th round forward we will be able to address the OL, Dl, Secondary, OLB etc with guys who will be on the roster and productive over the next few years? Good luck with that one.
    If your going to give up 12 and 43 why not just give them up for Kolb?
    Because he is a WCO QB and we are going away from that.

  9. #59
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094556
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094555
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094494
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094485
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094481
    Hell, I don't think that is exactly what I said but maybe start out by answering this one:
    How many picks are you willing to give up in order to move up to the top spot in the draft?
    The thing is, we don't need the top pick.

    If Carolina doesn't pick QB with #1, and one of Newton or Gabbert is around near 5, trading up is doable.

    Following the Draft pick value chart, we've got #12(1200) and #43(470), Those picks alone, by following the chart give us 1670 points, good enough for 6th pick, (5th pick is 1700, and probably not completely out of the question) If it cost us only two picks to get a guy like Gabbert, I'd say that's a no brainer.
    So basically what you are saying is that getting Gabbert is worth not having a single pick until the 4th?

    Yeah, that is really going to take us places.

    So from the 4th round forward we will be able to address the OL, Dl, Secondary, OLB etc with guys who will be on the roster and productive over the next few years? Good luck with that one.
    If your going to give up 12 and 43 why not just give them up for Kolb?
    Because he is a WCO QB and we are going away from that.
    Says who?

    Our WCO orientated O-coord?
    Our new Ol coach that comes from WCO background?
    Our new QB coach that teaches WCO QB's?

    Maybe its the shortened time we have to get the whole team transitioned from a WCO to a new scheme.

    Everything I've read, heard, or digested in other mediums says we are going to be a WCO team again this year.

    Well, except one article that was written by a yutz who probably can't spell NFL.
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094520
    We need backups and those players should be found in rounds 4-7.
    We Have an above average

    QB - Fixed with moving up and signing a Vet
    HB - Solved
    FB - FA signing
    WR - Drafting one in the fifth will be nice
    TE - Draft one in the fourth
    OL - Draft 2 backups and resign Cook
    DL - Draft or FA signing / Resign Evans
    LB - One of our young LBs start in place of Leber
    Cb - We have too many as it is
    S - No saftey in this draft should be drafted before the 3rd.

    Again, I'm not saying that it's a great idea but it's not the worst idea if we beleive that Gabbert is the guy. If you solve your QB position, it's solved for a decade.Look at the Bears, they fixed their QB position and now...all their other drafts can be spent addressing the other areas of their team.
    QB - Fixed when you got Kolb
    FB - You drafted one last year. Why draft another.
    WR - Resign Rice. If that can't be done, spend the money you were willing to spend on Rice for another big possesion type reciever.
    TE - Why? Sauce, Shanc, Dugan. Is a rook gonna replace one of them?
    OL - Resign Cook and you don't need any more backups that you already have on the roster.
    DL - Run away from Evans. There is a reason he was inactive for most games last year. He sucks. Add a 4th rounder (Kenrick Ellis/Jurrell Casey) to K-dubb/Guion/Phat Pat (limited role)/Jimmy Kennedy and you will be OK for another year.

    On a side note, I am getting the feeling that Kenrick Ellis is going to be the sleeper of the draft for the team that takes him.

    LB - Agree. Stick Jasper in there and/or resign Erin. Draft a guy later if necessary
    Cb - Agree. Our backups did a hell of a job last year without any help from the starters and the DEFENSIVE LINE. Get one or two of them back this year, improve the DL play and we will be fine.
    S - Agree. Besides, all you have to do is resign Hussain and improve the DL play and our S's will be fine.

    On a side note (yes another one).....I think the biggest addition to the improvement of the defense will be our new D-coord. A bit more agressive perhaps and probably a better play caller will be the difference on that side of the ball my friends.
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