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  1. #41
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1094501
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094471
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1094458
    BPA Regardless of position, if they pick at 12.

    I'd hate for them to reach for a QB at 12 who's slated to go late first or second round. If their hearts set at taking a QB in the first, trade up or down to make it happen where the player is worth the pick.

    With FA not beginning until after the draft, we are in a bad situation. We certainly can't bank on getting a damn good QB out of this years QB FA pool and they certainly shouldn't be banking on getting McNabb or Kolb when they aren't even FA's.
    Our FO rarely drafts BPA... We draft for need. Sometimes that goes together but.... it's never purely BPA.
    Adrian Peterson comes to mind.

    With as many voids or holes that the Vikings have needed to fill come draft day, BPA (which is arguable) has filled a lot of those needs. K-Will & Greenway etc..
    Greenway wasn't BPA. Infact I beleive Peterson is the last time we went BPA.

  2. #42
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1094512
    What is it about Gabbert that makes him so much better than Locker? Or, for that matter, Mallet or Ponder or Kaepernick? ALL of the QBs coming out this year have question marks. ALL of them are considered developmental guys. And most of them played in non-NFL style systems.

    So, I'm not saying, "absolutely don't trade up," just that we do have other needs, and I'm far from convinced that moving up 6 slots will help us more than moving back and gaining a pick instead when the players seem to me to be pretty durn close in ability anyway.

    Besides, most mockers think the top two guys are going to be gone before the fifth pick. I think Cam goes No.1 cuz he's the athlete with the most potential who has the history of winning and will sell the most jerseys/give fans hope again. Clausen seems like a career backup to me. Then, even the Broncos have been checking QBs and all of the teams picking 3-5 need one badly. If Gabbert is there at 5, he will most likely be a Cardinal, and I don't see either making it to 6.

    Sorry to rain on your parade, but it just doesn't look like trading up is going to have much chance of helping us in this situation.
    I agree with you.

    Here is a tidbit on trading up to get a QB:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6299577

    Here's the scary part, though. There have been five "trade-ups" (moving into the first round) for quarterbacks since 2003, and none have really worked out.

    In 2003, the Ravens, who passed on Byron Leftwich with their first-round pick to take Terrell Suggs, traded up from 41 to 19 to draft Kyle Boller. They gave up a first-round pick in 2004 to make the move. After that didn't work out, the Ravens eventually had to trade for Steve McNair a few years later and finally fixed the long search for a franchise quarterback by trading up from 26 to 18 for Joe Flacco.

    In 2004, the Buffalo Bills moved from the second round (No. 43) to No. 22 to get J.P. Losman. They gave up a 2005 first-rounder for the jump. Since then, they've tried Trent Edwards, Ryan Fitzpatrick and others and may finally resolve the issue this year if they get Newton or Gabbert. The 2004 draft was a great one for quarterbacks -- Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger and Matt Schaub. Losman was the fourth of the four first-rounders taken that year. It didn't work out.

    In 2005, the Redskins moved from the third-round (pick 76) to draft Jason Campbell at No. 25. They gave up a No. 1 and No. 4 pick in 2006. Owner Dan Snyder got 52 starts out of Campbell but never felt he was an elite quarterback. He shipped him off to Oakland, and the Redskins, after taking a one-year flyer on Donovan McNabb, still are in the market for a quarterback.

    In 2007, the Cleveland Browns set themselves back for years by trading up for Brady Quinn. They moved from No. 36 to No. 22, giving up a first-round pick in 2008. They tried Quinn and Derek Anderson for a couple years without success. Enter Eric Mangini. Mangini stayed with Quinn and Anderson as the quarterbacks in 2009 and started trading down from the fifth pick in the first round. They were involved in trades that gave the Jets Mark Sanchez and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman. Sanchez has been to two AFC title games and Freeman is on the verge of becoming an elite quarterback.

    In 2010, Josh McDaniels shocked the league by moving from the 43rd selection to 25 to take Tim Tebow. He gave up third- and fourth-round picks. McDaniels is gone as head coach and head talent evaluator. John Elway has taken over and conceded the Broncos don't have a franchise quarterback unless Elway comes out of retirement.

    Interestingly he left out the move the Broncos made to get Cutler in the 2006 draft,which was a good move initially and one I would consider worth the cost but we are still talking about a rare occurrence and one the needs to be weighed very carefully before pulling the trigger.

  3. #43
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094502
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094498

    There are some of us that believe that we don't need to address many of these areas with high draft picks.
    So you consider 2nd and 3rd round picks as high picks?

    You think we will find the players we need in rounds 4-7 even though we have rarely done that very thing in the past 5 years?


    Is it worth trading up to get a Franchise QB? Hell yes. Say what you want but teams that get it right....are way better off.
    What teams specifically are you referring to who used their top picks to move up in the draft and ended up better off because of the move?




    Last season we spent a 2nd and a 3rd to draft a back up running back....but you are against spending a 2nd for a Franchise QB?
    Hell yes and I was against moving up to get him too. If you are going to use the Toby trade to justify this position IMHO you just lost.
    We need backups and those players should be found in rounds 4-7.
    We Have an above average

    QB - Fixed with moving up and signing a Vet
    HB - Solved
    FB - FA signing
    WR - Drafting one in the fifth will be nice
    TE - Draft one in the fourth
    OL - Draft 2 backups and resign Cook
    DL - Draft or FA signing / Resign Evans
    LB - One of our young LBs start in place of Leber
    Cb - We have too many as it is
    S - No saftey in this draft should be drafted before the 3rd.

    Again, I'm not saying that it's a great idea but it's not the worst idea if we beleive that Gabbert is the guy. If you solve your QB position, it's solved for a decade.Look at the Bears, they fixed their QB position and now...all their other drafts can be spent addressing the other areas of their team.

  4. #44
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094520
    We need backups and those players should be found in rounds 4-7.
    We Have an above average

    QB - Fixed with moving up and signing a Vet
    HB - Solved
    FB - FA signing
    WR - Drafting one in the fifth will be nice
    TE - Draft one in the fourth
    OL - Draft 2 backups and resign Cook
    DL - Draft or FA signing / Resign Evans
    LB - One of our young LBs start in place of Leber
    Cb - We have too many as it is
    S - No saftey in this draft should be drafted before the 3rd.

    Again, I'm not saying that it's a great idea but it's not the worst idea if we beleive that Gabbert is the guy. If you solve your QB position, it's solved for a decade.Look at the Bears, they fixed their QB position and now...all their other drafts can be spent addressing the other areas of their team.
    The problem with your example is that you just indicated 6 players we need to draft and we are already without a 3rd round pick as it is. With those things in mind how in the heck are we going to draft all six players you outlined and use picks to trade up for a QB? Those supplemental picks are not going to be able to allow us to get it all done.

    To get Gabbert we will need to get to the 3 spot at a minimum and possibly the 1 or 2 spot which then adds more picks to the trade to get him.And in the end we would be getting a Tim Tebow clone and he is available for much less after the league and the players get their crap together.

  5. #45
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    I believe the most reasonable scenario will be one of these two players:

    Offensive tackle Tyron Smith - Best OT in the draft. I really like him, but I want to trade Bryant McKinnie first. Unfortunately, that's not happening.

    Defensive back Prince Amukamara - Second best CB in the draft. I'll be honest with you guys. One of the reason I like him is that the Lions are selecting right after us and the everyone expect them to take Amukamara. Muhahaha!!! :evil:

    In addition, I also believe there is a big chance that we go defensive end with all the great DE talents that will likely be on the board. I'm talking about Aldon Smith, Cameron Jordan, J.J. Watt and Ryan Kerrigan.

    They all have great upsides (in different ways), but my issue is that defensive ends have a tendency to be overrated in the recent drafts and I think the same could be said about this one.

    Also, none of them really stands out as the best player of the bunch. Combine the raw athleticism of Aldon Smith, the power of J.J. Watt, the energy of Karrigan, and the hands of Jameron Jordan, and you'll probably end up with the best player in the draft.

    All things considered, I have a gut feeling that the Vikings will draft a QB if Mallett or Locker is still on the board (which is very likely). Don't get me wrong! I still will be very surprised if we draft either Mallett or Locker because I don't think the front office will make such a bold move. However, a QB seems more likely from what I've read in interviews with Leslie Frazier and others.

    I'm going controversial on this one and predicting... the Vikings draft Ryan Mallett.

  6. #46
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094517
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1094512
    What is it about Gabbert that makes him so much better than Locker? Or, for that matter, Mallet or Ponder or Kaepernick? ALL of the QBs coming out this year have question marks. ALL of them are considered developmental guys. And most of them played in non-NFL style systems.

    So, I'm not saying, "absolutely don't trade up," just that we do have other needs, and I'm far from convinced that moving up 6 slots will help us more than moving back and gaining a pick instead when the players seem to me to be pretty durn close in ability anyway.

    Besides, most mockers think the top two guys are going to be gone before the fifth pick. I think Cam goes No.1 cuz he's the athlete with the most potential who has the history of winning and will sell the most jerseys/give fans hope again. Clausen seems like a career backup to me. Then, even the Broncos have been checking QBs and all of the teams picking 3-5 need one badly. If Gabbert is there at 5, he will most likely be a Cardinal, and I don't see either making it to 6.

    Sorry to rain on your parade, but it just doesn't look like trading up is going to have much chance of helping us in this situation.
    I agree with you.

    Here is a tidbit on trading up to get a QB:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6299577

    Here's the scary part, though. There have been five "trade-ups" (moving into the first round) for quarterbacks since 2003, and none have really worked out.

    In 2003, the Ravens, who passed on Byron Leftwich with their first-round pick to take Terrell Suggs, traded up from 41 to 19 to draft Kyle Boller. They gave up a first-round pick in 2004 to make the move. After that didn't work out, the Ravens eventually had to trade for Steve McNair a few years later and finally fixed the long search for a franchise quarterback by trading up from 26 to 18 for Joe Flacco.

    In 2004, the Buffalo Bills moved from the second round (No. 43) to No. 22 to get J.P. Losman. They gave up a 2005 first-rounder for the jump. Since then, they've tried Trent Edwards, Ryan Fitzpatrick and others and may finally resolve the issue this year if they get Newton or Gabbert. The 2004 draft was a great one for quarterbacks -- Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger and Matt Schaub. Losman was the fourth of the four first-rounders taken that year. It didn't work out.

    In 2005, the Redskins moved from the third-round (pick 76) to draft Jason Campbell at No. 25. They gave up a No. 1 and No. 4 pick in 2006. Owner Dan Snyder got 52 starts out of Campbell but never felt he was an elite quarterback. He shipped him off to Oakland, and the Redskins, after taking a one-year flyer on Donovan McNabb, still are in the market for a quarterback.

    In 2007, the Cleveland Browns set themselves back for years by trading up for Brady Quinn. They moved from No. 36 to No. 22, giving up a first-round pick in 2008. They tried Quinn and Derek Anderson for a couple years without success. Enter Eric Mangini. Mangini stayed with Quinn and Anderson as the quarterbacks in 2009 and started trading down from the fifth pick in the first round. They were involved in trades that gave the Jets Mark Sanchez and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman. Sanchez has been to two AFC title games and Freeman is on the verge of becoming an elite quarterback.

    In 2010, Josh McDaniels shocked the league by moving from the 43rd selection to 25 to take Tim Tebow. He gave up third- and fourth-round picks. McDaniels is gone as head coach and head talent evaluator. John Elway has taken over and conceded the Broncos don't have a franchise quarterback unless Elway comes out of retirement.

    Interestingly he left out the move the Broncos made to get Cutler in the 2006 draft,which was a good move initially and one I would consider worth the cost but we are still talking about a rare occurrence and one the needs to be weighed very carefully before pulling the trigger.
    What a terrible article. We aren't talking about trading up to select the 3 or 4th best Qb in the draft. We are talking about moving up to select the a QB that most have either 1 or 2. Huge difference. The article also doesn't consider the team itself. The ravens traded up and selected Boller but had nothing on Offense to help him with. Care to name their WRS? Travis Taylor.....yes that Travis Taylor..hmy:

    We aren't the Skins, Browns or Ravens. We have talent on offense that will make our QB's life easier.

  7. #47
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    I thought we had 7 draft picks from 4-7. It was pointed out that we would give up a 2nd to draft the guy. Several of the positions I said we could address with FA as well.

  8. #48
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094522
    Quote Originally Posted by "kevoncox" #1094520
    We need backups and those players should be found in rounds 4-7.
    We Have an above average

    QB - Fixed with moving up and signing a Vet
    HB - Solved
    FB - FA signing
    WR - Drafting one in the fifth will be nice
    TE - Draft one in the fourth
    OL - Draft 2 backups and resign Cook
    DL - Draft or FA signing / Resign Evans
    LB - One of our young LBs start in place of Leber
    Cb - We have too many as it is
    S - No saftey in this draft should be drafted before the 3rd.

    Again, I'm not saying that it's a great idea but it's not the worst idea if we beleive that Gabbert is the guy. If you solve your QB position, it's solved for a decade.Look at the Bears, they fixed their QB position and now...all their other drafts can be spent addressing the other areas of their team.
    The problem with your example is that you just indicated 6 players we need to draft and we are already without a 3rd round pick as it is. With those things in mind how in the heck are we going to draft all six players you outlined and use picks to trade up for a QB? Those supplemental picks are not going to be able to allow us to get it all done.

    To get Gabbert we will need to get to the 3 spot at a minimum and possibly the 1 or 2 spot which then adds more picks to the trade to get him.And in the end we would be getting a Tim Tebow clone and he is available for much less after the league and the players get their crap together.
    See the post before this...
    Also...
    Gabbett will be their at 5.

  9. #49
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    If Gabbert doesn't go to Carolina, he very well could drop out of the top 5.

    Teams up there who are looking for QB's are:
    1. Carolina
    3. Buffalo
    4. Bengals
    5. Cardinals
    7. 49ers
    8. Titans

    IMO, Carolina would be wise to get something else, maybe Peterson, and take their luck at getting luck (wordplay intended). Buffalo has a LOT of needs, and Fitzpatrick has been playing some decent ball there. THey could very well pass on QB. Bengals are interesting, with losing TO, and talk of possibly even Ocho, they'l lhave alot of holes to fix her.e Line, WR, Defense, QB. They likely take a run at Gabbert or Newton here. I can't see Newton being Marvin's guy in Cincy. He seems like a guy who doesn't give in to players shenanegins, as shown every year by Ocho and now Palmer making a stir. Cardinals at 5 are a likely QB candidate as well, and convincing them to trade will be difficult. However, everybody has their price. If 5 comes along and one or both of those QB's are still on the board, we have to at least poke around and see if ther'es interest.

    Hell, we could even maybe work a way to get a 3rd rounder back.

    Say, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th for 1st and 3rd. We have something like 9 or 10 picks this draft, we can afford to move around a little bit.

    Then, from there, we can go right back and trade down in the third, acquire another fourth or fifth, not all is lost.

  10. #50
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    Re: The Minnesota Vikings Select....

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094517
    Quote Originally Posted by "mountainviking" #1094512
    What is it about Gabbert that makes him so much better than Locker? Or, for that matter, Mallet or Ponder or Kaepernick? ALL of the QBs coming out this year have question marks. ALL of them are considered developmental guys. And most of them played in non-NFL style systems.

    So, I'm not saying, "absolutely don't trade up," just that we do have other needs, and I'm far from convinced that moving up 6 slots will help us more than moving back and gaining a pick instead when the players seem to me to be pretty durn close in ability anyway.

    Besides, most mockers think the top two guys are going to be gone before the fifth pick. I think Cam goes No.1 cuz he's the athlete with the most potential who has the history of winning and will sell the most jerseys/give fans hope again. Clausen seems like a career backup to me. Then, even the Broncos have been checking QBs and all of the teams picking 3-5 need one badly. If Gabbert is there at 5, he will most likely be a Cardinal, and I don't see either making it to 6.

    Sorry to rain on your parade, but it just doesn't look like trading up is going to have much chance of helping us in this situation.
    I agree with you.

    Here is a tidbit on trading up to get a QB:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6299577

    Here's the scary part, though. There have been five "trade-ups" (moving into the first round) for quarterbacks since 2003, and none have really worked out.

    In 2003, the Ravens, who passed on Byron Leftwich with their first-round pick to take Terrell Suggs, traded up from 41 to 19 to draft Kyle Boller. They gave up a first-round pick in 2004 to make the move. After that didn't work out, the Ravens eventually had to trade for Steve McNair a few years later and finally fixed the long search for a franchise quarterback by trading up from 26 to 18 for Joe Flacco.

    In 2004, the Buffalo Bills moved from the second round (No. 43) to No. 22 to get J.P. Losman. They gave up a 2005 first-rounder for the jump. Since then, they've tried Trent Edwards, Ryan Fitzpatrick and others and may finally resolve the issue this year if they get Newton or Gabbert. The 2004 draft was a great one for quarterbacks -- Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger and Matt Schaub. Losman was the fourth of the four first-rounders taken that year. It didn't work out.

    In 2005, the Redskins moved from the third-round (pick 76) to draft Jason Campbell at No. 25. They gave up a No. 1 and No. 4 pick in 2006. Owner Dan Snyder got 52 starts out of Campbell but never felt he was an elite quarterback. He shipped him off to Oakland, and the Redskins, after taking a one-year flyer on Donovan McNabb, still are in the market for a quarterback.

    In 2007, the Cleveland Browns set themselves back for years by trading up for Brady Quinn. They moved from No. 36 to No. 22, giving up a first-round pick in 2008. They tried Quinn and Derek Anderson for a couple years without success. Enter Eric Mangini. Mangini stayed with Quinn and Anderson as the quarterbacks in 2009 and started trading down from the fifth pick in the first round. They were involved in trades that gave the Jets Mark Sanchez and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers Josh Freeman. Sanchez has been to two AFC title games and Freeman is on the verge of becoming an elite quarterback.

    In 2010, Josh McDaniels shocked the league by moving from the 43rd selection to 25 to take Tim Tebow. He gave up third- and fourth-round picks. McDaniels is gone as head coach and head talent evaluator. John Elway has taken over and conceded the Broncos don't have a franchise quarterback unless Elway comes out of retirement.

    Interestingly he left out the move the Broncos made to get Cutler in the 2006 draft,which was a good move initially and one I would consider worth the cost but we are still talking about a rare occurrence and one the needs to be weighed very carefully before pulling the trigger.
    I loved the read, I completely agree with you about trading up... but this article didn't do a good job on backing up its claim... it actually mentions in the article how Ravens traded up for Joe Flacco, Jets traded up for Sanchez, and Tampa Bay traded for Josh Freeman. I'm sure none of those teams regret trading up... However the point does get across that trading up is never a good idea, and putting all the eggs in one basket regresses your franchise for many years... But you can still see that there is still a possibility you find a guy by trading up.

    Me personally, I wouldn't trade up for a QB with question marks and who was once considered top 15 talents respectively (Newton & Gabbert). None of these QBs are going to be pro ready from what I have seen on tape... Too many question marks if we wait till second round for a QB then thats fine with me. In all honesty I don't like too many QBs in this draft aside from Stanzi, Dalton, and McElroy (will be at very least a great back up).
    None

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