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  1. #11
    gtinker63 is offline Rookie
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "gtinker63" wrote:
    "jessejames09" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    Do you actually believe that the Vikings staff considers the QB situation on this team so dire that they would use thier 2nd pick on a QB instead of addressing areas such as:

    S
    - Two of 5 are UFA right now.
    One of our S is aging and will probably only be around for at least one more year.
    DE - The unexpected loss of Keneche and now we are hearing that Erasmus won't be 100% (again)
    DT - 1 of 4 is a UFA (and he really doesn't fit the scheme), 1 can't play every down.
    WR - Nuff said.
    RB - Although not a pressing need, Memo leaving would dictate taking a guy in the later rounds.
    Good thing is this draft is deep deep deep at RB.

    Look, I am not that enamoured with TJ to think that the coaching staff wouldn't like to have a Flacco kindof guy in the early rounds but this team has pressing needs in several key positions not to mention the fact that we have 10 UFA of our own leaving and limited CAP to fix those positions.

    Long story short, this staff will use the draft to replace most of the 10 leaving, sign a couple of FA in areas of most pressing need.
    Regardless of what most of us think about TJ, QB isn't one of those needs based on the indicators we are getting out of Winter Park.
    You never know. I don't know what the front office thinks our needs are, or how they rate players. Was our RB situation so dire last year we needed to use the no.7 overall pick on one? Also we still have cuts to make (money!) and free agency to fill holes.
    I couldn’t agree more with what jessejames said.

    We currently do have holes at Defensive End, Safety (especially Free Safety), and Wide Receiver.
    However, we also have holes at Quarterback, Defensive Tackle, Running Back, and Full Back.
    Therefore, the Vikings front office will do what they can to fill those holes.
    Resigning current players, Free Agent signings, and the NFL draft are the vehicles used to fill those holes.


    I think there is a very good chance the Vikings could use a high pick (rounds 1-3 on a QB).
    This could help solidify that position for years.
    If they don’t we could be sitting here discussing drafting a QB next year and the year after and so on.
    Drafting a top QB this season would give the Vikings TJ, rookie, and Bollinger/Holcomb.
    Yes this would be a very young core but the Vikings are still rebuilding.


    DE, S, WR should be filled through Free Agency if they can be.
    These are the areas of desperate need.
    Rookies rarely step in and perform as good as seasoned vets.


    I would really like to see the Vikings draft go QB, FB, RB, WR, DE, 2 S, and DT with their 8 draft choices.
    I do not know what order these should be taken in.
    I leave that up to the Vikings Hierarchy.
    They have had very good drafts in the last 2 years, so I trust them to take the best player available at that time in the draft.

    With these 8 draft choices plus adding another S, WR, 1-2 DE’s, and maybe an OL and/or DB through free agency the Vikings could be in good shape for years to come.

    I couldn't disagree more......

    Sounds like a great plan but how you gonna get all that done with 17 Mil in CAP space, 7 (not 8) Picks and 10 UFA getting ready to leave.

    Trust me when I tell you this our priority of concern is not at the QB position, at least to the point that they will use a 1rst day pick.
    They will draft in the following order....

    1. S - One of our biggest needs and one of the positions in this draft without alot of talent.
    One of the top 3 will be available at 17. The Vikes will take one there.
    2. DE - If not the biggest need, pretty gol 'darnit close to it.
    Becuase it is one of the deepest positions in the draft the Vikes will wait until the second round to address this position.
    3a. DT - With the impending loss of Spencer Johnson (To small to play DT at the 3 gap anyway) the Vikes will draft a DT that can add depth to the rotation as well as a future pocket collapser for Phat Pat.
    3.b LB - With Rufus coming back might not be that big of a need.
    They could loose Farwell if they can't match a qualifying offer.
    They might try to resign Thomas.
    Probably still gonna lose at least one.
    4. FB - Could draft one high on the second day or later but believe they might just opt to either move Mills to FB or resign T-rich to a one year contract if he doesn't get an offer. Depending on what happens in FA they might take a WR here instead.
    5. QB.
    Draft a guy to replace Thygpen who will be TJ's eventual replacement or backup.
    6. No pick in the 6th round.
    7. RB - A very deep draft at RB. They could wait until here or take a guy at 4 or 5 to replace Memo as Memo will cost to much to bring back and would eat up to much of the 17 mil that needs to be spent on a S, DE and WR in FA.

    FA.
    Sign a DE and a WR with the money you have left over after you have signed your rookie class and a couple of your UFA's (Bolded).

    Unrestricted Free Agents

    Mike Doss S
    Unsigned
    Resign either Mike or Tank to a low ball offer if no other team offers them one.
    Robert Ferguson WR
    Unsigned
    I don't see any teams offering him something we can't afford.
    Spencer Johnson DT

    Unsigned
    Mewelde Moore RB
    Unsigned
    Tony Richardson FB
    Unsigned
    Darrion Scott DE
    Unsigned
    Dontarrious Thomas LB
    Unsigned
    Plays all the positions.
    Resign if he doesn't get a big offer from another team.
    If they do, match the offer for Heath if it isn't to big.
    Ronyell Whitaker CB

    Unsigned
    Tank Williams S

    Unsigned
    Restricted Free Agents

    Heath Farwell LB
    Unsigned

    Get rid of KH and BB and use thier combined salaries to add a better VET backup behind TJ.

    Long story short, although it appears you don't like TJ and are hoping that the staff will get a guy in the first day to replace him, it just isn't gonna happen that way.

    They have 2 years into him trying to develop him into a NFL ready QB while on the field.
    They just aren't gonna pooh can him and go to another Rookie as our starter next year.

    :
    Marrdro,
    I know you hate when people put words in your mouth so please don't put words in mine.

    When the *hell did I ever say that I don't like TJ and want a draft choice to replace him?
    I never said that.
    I think he may turn out to be a very good QB.
    However, from what we have seen up to this point it is clear that we could use some better backups and competion for the starting spot.
    That being said I disagree with your post.

    1. S - One of our biggest needs and one of the positions in this draft without alot of talent.
    One of the top 3 will be available at 17. The Vikes will take one there.
    How about round 1 we take the best available player.
    That is how you draft.
    You do not draft on need.
    Look at the Detroit Lions with WR, look at Troy, Many Bear picks, last season having AD drop to us.
    The draft is for the future of the orginization.
    You build through the draft and DO NOT DRAFT ON NEED.

    They will draft in the following order....
    That is a very high statement to make.
    "They Will".
    How do you know that they will draft this way?
    Have you heard this from the waterboy or something?
    I would like a source if you say they will.

    As for my statements.
    I thought through Wikipedia that the Vikings had 8 picks.
    Why do we not have a 6th rounder?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mi...Vikings_season

    Why do you say that 17 Mil and that many free agents and draft choices cannot be done?
    I never said that we need to sign top of the pile guys.
    In Free Agency it isn't about signing the top guys it is to find the guys that will improve your team.
    This can be a guy who just adds depth.
    I think signing 1 top name and 3-4 other FA and then getting 7 draft choices in it can certainly be done with $17 mil.


  2. #12
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    Marrdro,
    I know you hate when people put words in your mouth so please don't put words in mine.

    When the *hell did I ever say that I don't like TJ and want a draft choice to replace him?
    I never said that.
    I think he may turn out to be a very good QB.
    However, from what we have seen up to this point it is clear that we could use some better backups and competion for the starting spot.
    That being said I disagree with your post.
    If you put it that way then I see my error, but the way you phrased it lead me to believe that you didn't like him.


    I apologize.


    If in fact you do like him, then it gets back to the point of why would you draft a kid so high if you already have a kid you like.
    Makes no sense to me.

    Not wanting to put words in your mouth, could you explain that to me.

    How about round 1 we take the best available player.
    That is how you draft.
    You do not draft on need.
    Look at the Detroit Lions with WR, look at Troy, Many Bear picks, last season having AD drop to us.
    The draft is for the future of the orginization.
    You build through the draft and DO NOT DRAFT ON NEED.
    You know that is one of the most overused cliche's this time of year.
    Of course you take best player available but you sure the hell don't take the best player availbable if he has no shot at making the team as well as factor if the kid is gonna be used as a immediate impact guy or a bench warmer.
    Your first day guys better not be bench warmers when you are in rebuilding mode as we are in.

    You have to take team needs as well as depth of draft at certain positions into account when drafting.

    If you don't do that then you will be wasting picks on guys that either won't make the team cause you have someone already on the roster or wind up drafting like the lions do.


    That is a very high statement to make.
    "They Will".
    How do you know that they will draft this way?
    Have you heard this from the waterboy or something?
    I would like a source if you say they will.
    Comeon my friend.
    Now you are just being silly.
    Of course I don't have inside knowledge on what "They Will" do.

    What I do know is that (at least in my mind) I know what they will do and can rationalize it.

    Tear my rationale apart if you think I am wrong and tell me why "You Think" they will draft different.

    As for my statements.
    I thought through Wikipedia that the Vikings had 8 picks.
    Why do we not have a 6th rounder?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mi...Vikings_season
    Because when I make statements I usually (most don't believe it) do alot of research and then come with the bold statements.

    Although I like Wikipedia for research, I usually don't quote them unless I just can't find any other source.

    Why do you say that 17 Mil and that many free agents and draft choices cannot be done?
    I never said that we need to sign top of the pile guys.
    In Free Agency it isn't about signing the top guys it is to find the guys that will improve your team.
    This can be a guy who just adds depth.
    I think signing 1 top name and 3-4 other FA and then getting 7 draft choices in it can certainly be done with $17 mil.
    Not sure what you are pointing out.
    I think you are just saying what I said in another way.

    My point is that by using a day one pick (these guys are normally expected to provide immediate impact) on a QB that will ride the pine for a few years (remember you clarified that you liked TJ) as he learns then you need to find a FA to fill that hole.

    Again, S, DE and WR are our concern.
    S and DE will (again no insider info here just by opinion) be addressed with both a FA and a Draft pick and both will be required to provide immediate impact.

    By taking a QB there, then you don't have the guy you would have drafted and must add a FA.
    S for example.
    2 FA Safeties = A hell of alot more than a S (rookie) and a S FA.
    If you start doing that because (again) you used one of your first day picks on a QB you can take much later at a cheaper price then you can't get er done with 17 mil.

    Lastly, you don't need to get so upset if I don't (or anyone for that matter) doesn't agree with you.
    Come with a different tact and try to prove to us we are wrong.
    Its what is great about this place.

    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #13
    gtinker63 is offline Rookie
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    Lastly, you don't need to get so upset if I don't (or anyone for that matter) doesn't agree with you.
    Come with a different tact and try to prove to us we are wrong.
    Its what is great about this place.
    I am not upset that someone disagrees with me.
    I am just fine with what you have said and everyone has stated.



    If in fact you do like him, then it gets back to the point of why would you draft a kid so high if you already have a kid you like.
    Makes no sense to me.
    I think drafting a QB with a 1st day pick is ok.
    Do I really think they should do it?
    I don't know.
    Can I see them doing that?
    Certainly.
    It is clearly a position of need in the coming years.
    TJ we all hope turns out to be a HOF.
    However, at this point he is mediocre at best.
    Our Backups are even worse.
    At some point you need to bring in another young guy to learn and chanllenge Jackson and at very least provide quality backup.


    You know that is one of the most overused cliche's this time of year.
    Of course you take best player available but you sure the hell don't take the best player availbable if he has no shot at making the team as well as factor if the kid is gonna be used as a immediate impact guy or a bench warmer.
    Your first day guys better not be bench warmers when you are in rebuilding mode as we are in.
    Drafting the best player available should be the way to do it.
    However, I see where that statement can be twisted into wearing blinders and not helping your team at all.
    Clearly the Vikings have many positions of need (S, DE, WR, QB, DT, RB, FB).
    You draft the best player available.
    Playmakers don't come around in every round.
    Every team needs playmakers.
    The rest of the draft you then draft best player available based on your needs.

    If you don't draft best Player Available why did the Vikings draft Moss in 98?
    They already had Carter, Reed, among others.
    As a fan we can easily rationalize almost all picks as picks of need.
    Every position for the vikings could improve.
    That being either a starter or in depth.

  4. #14
    ThorSPL's Avatar
    ThorSPL is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    To answer the question about the 6th rounder... we gave it up for Holcomb...


    Trust me, I'm a doctor.

    www.twitter.com/ThorSPL

  5. #15
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    I think drafting a QB with a 1st day pick is ok.
    Do I really think they should do it?
    I don't know.
    Can I see them doing that?
    Certainly.
    It is clearly a position of need in the coming years.
    TJ we all hope turns out to be a HOF.
    However, at this point he is mediocre at best.
    Our Backups are even worse.
    At some point you need to bring in another young guy to learn and chanllenge Jackson and at very least provide quality backup.
    There is still a small point of contention/disagreement then.
    I expect guys drafted on the first day to provide immediate impact either as a starter or as a rotation guy.
    A QB drafted on the first day won't do that and will actually hurt the bigger effort by subtracting a guy that can't be taken because you used that pick on the QB.

    Not trying to put picks in your mouth, but here is a better way to explain it.
    First column is how I would draft.
    I plugged in S, QB, and DE for you. Not saying you would do that but if you did take the QB in the second round, you now hurt the team by getting only 2 impact players instead of 3.


    Me
    You
    1. S
    -
    S
    2. DE -
    QB
    3. DT -
    DE

    I do think they will draft a QB this year (as they did with Thygpen) and develop him the right way.
    (Let him learn while holding the clipboard.)
    In about 3 years he should be ready to assume the role of starter if necessary.
    By that time TJ will have 6 years under center and will either be gone due to injury or because he demanded more money than the team was willing to give him.

    By the way, I have been saying this for a few months.
    Were have you been when I was getting beat up over drafting a QB this year.
    ;D

    Drafting the best player available should be the way to do it.
    However, I see where that statement can be twisted into wearing blinders and not helping your team at all.
    Clearly the Vikings have many positions of need (S, DE, WR, QB, DT, RB, FB).
    You draft the best player available.
    Playmakers don't come around in every round.
    Every team needs playmakers.
    The rest of the draft you then draft best player available based on your needs.

    I agree with this statement 100% but I want to add one piece more to it.

    When considering BPA you also have to look at that position and its depth for that year.
    S is one of those that I keep harping on as it is very shallow this year with really only 3 immediate impact guys that can come in and contribute right now.

    If push came to shove I would say that DE is our biggest need, but believe we will take a S first because one of those guys will be available at 17 but won't be there in the second round.


    If you look at DE, a couple of the guys will be available at 17 but a couple of others will also be there in the second round as well.

    Need + BPA + Player depth = Selection.

    If you don't draft best Player Available why did the Vikings draft Moss in 98?
    They already had Carter, Reed, among others.
    LOL.
    You got me on that one, however, if you apply the logic I used above, you could almost say that we did have a need at WR (CC wasn't getting any younger, Reeds life expectancy didn't last much more).
    Taking Randy there wasn't so much of an issue with me because of Need and Player Depth. (If that makes sense to anyone other than me.
    ;D)

    As a fan we can easily rationalize almost all picks as picks of need.
    Every position for the vikings could improve.
    That being either a starter or in depth.
    Again, I disagree with you here.

    I believe that we have a very talented team at almost every position and require very little in the way of new talent to upgrade those positions.
    The problem is that at certain positions (i.e. TJ, Cook, Griff, McCauley, Gordon etc) those players talent level isn't quite NFL ready YET but the reps they got last year under fire sure accelerated thier experience level which should allow for a marked improvement next year.

    The only positions I feel we have a need at are S, DE and WR.
    The others are/will backup/rotation guys that should eventually replace a proven starter (i.e. Phat Pat, T-rich) or a unexpected loss due to injury or illness (i.e. Keneche, Erasmus) or a position were the guys you have drafted just haven't worked out (T-will).

    The unexpected loss and haven't worked out guys will require at least a Vet FA to fix with probably a drafted guy as well.
    The backup/rotation guys only need to be addressed via the draft because they can be had at a cheap price and they will have time to learn behind the Vets.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #16
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    "ThorSPL" wrote:
    To answer the question about the 6th rounder... we gave it up for Holcomb...
    Thanks Thor.
    I forget to stick that in.


    (key note:
    The cat still cracks me up)
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #17
    gtinker63 is offline Rookie
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    There is still a small point of contention/disagreement then.
    I expect guys drafted on the first day to provide immediate impact either as a starter or as a rotation guy.
    A QB drafted on the first day won't do that and will actually hurt the bigger effort by subtracting a guy that can't be taken because you used that pick on the QB.
    How can you say that this QB will never play?
    How often is the starting QB of game 1 the start all year long?
    Most often times you need to dig into the researves during the season.
    Also, we don't know exactly what we have with Jackson yet.
    Nobody on this sight can say that 100% that TJ will be good starting QB in this league.
    Nobody here can say 100% that he will be a total flop and we should cut ties right now.
    Another QB that is ready to play right now would help in depth at the QB position and to help accelerate TJ learning curve.
    He will have to try that much harder because he isn't assured the starting spot.
    Again, I think TJ is a good QB but having 2 starting quality guys can't hurt.
    If both turn out to be above average you can then trade one for a 1st rounder because good QBs are not a dime a dozen.
    Drafting a QB on day 2 you really are less likely to get a quality QB.

    To answer the question about the 6th rounder... we gave it up for Holcomb...

    Thanks Thor.
    I forget to stick that in.


    (key note:
    The cat still cracks me up)
    Yes, Thanks for that Thor.
    I can't believe I forgot that.

    My Quote:
    As a fan we can easily rationalize almost all picks as picks of need.
    Every position for the vikings could improve.
    That being either a starter or in depth.
    You did that for my argument for drafting Moss.
    You turned it into a draft day need.

    Before I say who the Vikings should draft I want to see what they do in Free Agency.
    What would happen if the Vikings resign D Smith, Doss, and pick up another S.
    Then all of a sudden S isn't a day 1 need.
    Should we get younger at that spot sure.
    However should we take one with the 17th pick in the draft.
    Maybe not.
    Then we should look at DE.

    What happens if in FA we sign a top DE.
    Then we have 2 legitimate starters (FA and Edwards) with another 2 that are close to being ready (James and Robison).
    Then we don't need a day 1 pick on DE.
    Free Agency will determine who the Vikings will draft.


    Again, I can see the Vikings draft a QB on day 1.
    Therefore, for this thread yes it could be Joe Flacco.

  8. #18
    Garland Greene's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "ThorSPL" wrote:
    To answer the question about the 6th rounder... we gave it up for Holcomb...
    Thanks Thor.
    I forget to stick that in.


    (key note:
    The cat still cracks me up)
    ;D
    Wasn't it one of our sixth round picks? I thought we had more than one this year. Plus I thought I read that we will get some compensation picks this year as well. I could be wrong, like usual on both points.

  9. #19
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    If you don't draft best Player Available why did the Vikings draft Moss in 98?
    They already had Carter, Reed, among others.
    it was a position of need, Think of 02 and 03 when our #2 reciever was D'wayne Bates.
    Imagine if we hadn't gotten Moss, the wr's then would be even worse than ours now

  10. #20
    gtinker63 is offline Rookie
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    Re: Joe Flacco in the second round?

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    If you don't draft best Player Available why did the Vikings draft Moss in 98?
    They already had Carter, Reed, among others.
    it was a position of need, Think of 02 and 03 when our #2 reciever was D'wayne Bates.
    Imagine if we hadn't gotten Moss, the wr's then would be even worse than ours now
    Again, finding a way to say that every draft is a choice of need.
    02 and 03 was 5 and 6 years after they took Moss.

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