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  1. #41
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    [quote author=jmcdon00 link=topic=44755.msg775962#msg775962 date=1210177933]
    I wonder about the long term affects this trade will have. In the final year of the contract Allen will have a cap hit of about 19million.
    How do you figure?

    http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/04/23/vikes-build-some-protection-into-allen-deal/

    Allen’s base salaries for 2011, 2012, and 2013 and $8,979,438, $11,619,850, and $14,280,612, respectively.
    Where's the other $5 million?

    Plus - keep in mind that in 2013, the NFL will be operating under a new CBA and with a salary cap (my own silly projection here - based on a $10 million bump/year between now and then - assuming they don't end up with uncapped years in 2010 and beyond) of somewhere around $160 million.

    =Z=
    $14.2M for Salary + $2.58M for signing bonus ($15.5/6years) = $16.78m for CAP hit in his final year.


    Keep in mind 2 things.


    1). At the rate the NFL is going under the current CBA, the Salary Cap should increase another $30M or so over that time?
    So the cap hit is less severe for his contract.

    B.) If they don't work pooh out there might not be a Salary Cap.
    :-\

    edit: or read what Z wrote
    :P
    Either way, I'm pretty sure over the last half of the contract allen or the Vikes will Re-negotiate if they fall into a cap problem, which i doubt bc, we've been one of the best teams out there related to cap management...

    With that said, he's worth every penny and if we continue to draft well and sign back key players, we're gonna be set regardless of who we loose in FA...
    Well, as the contract stands right now the cap hit for the last year of his contract is $16.78 million as mentioned by seaniemck7.


    However, Jared Allen is due an $8 million roster bonus in the third year of the contract.
    Right now, that stands to be an $8 million cap hit in 2010 (if there is a cap), bringing the total 2010 cap number to $16.9 million.
    Assuming that there is a cap, that $8 million is almost certainly going to be guaranteed so that it can be prorated over the last 4 years of the contract.

    That would get the 2010 cap hit down to $10.9 million.
    And it would increase the cap hit in the last year of the contract to $18.78 million, which was where jmcdon00 got his number.
    It doesn't matter if its guaranteed.
    The only way that gets prorated is if the renegotiate his contract and convert that Roster bonus to a Signing bonus.
    Roster bonuses count, in full, for the current year.
    Signing bonuses hit the cap at a prorated amount over the life (or remaining years) of the contract.

    This is what what Peyton Manning was so highly praised for last year (humongous eyeroll) even though he gets paid the exact same amount.
    Its all how its allocated against the cap.
    [/quote]

    There are actually a lot of things treated the same way as signing bonuses for the purposes of the CBA, including a guaranteed reporting bonus (CBA Article XXIV, Section 7).
    This came up with the Michael Vick case.
    He had a roster bonus, but the contract gave the team the option to guarantee the roster bonus so that it would be treated as a signing bonus in terms of proration.
    If they don't have similar language in the contract, then the contract would have to be changed.

    Anyway, it's a lot of semantics.
    I think there's about a 95% chance that the bonus gets prorated if there is still a cap in 2010.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  2. #42
    seaniemck7's Avatar
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    Thanks overlord, actually I pulled the number out of my jiggly butt. I remembered approximately from your other post, http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=44137.msg768522#msg768522.
    According to that the cap hit could be as much as 20.11 million.

    I think people are right though when they say the cap will be much larger by 2012. I'm just saying that generally making someone the highest paid player is not the way to build long term success because it takes away from the flexibility the team has in the future.
    I guaran-gol 'darnit-tee you that in 2012, the highest-paid player on the Minnesota Vikings will be Adrian Peterson.

    =Z=
    I hope so, being healthy and productive enough in the next 4 years to warrant the highest paid viking would be a beautiful thing.
    he might have the Vikings rushing record by then.

    He most likely will be our most valuable, but AD "gets it". I could very well see him taking a Brady-type contract which is nice, but not suffocating for the franchise .

  3. #43
    GALLY is offline Starter
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "MaxVike" wrote:
    "GALLY" wrote:
    "MaxVike" wrote:
    This adds significant perspective and provides one hell of an argument for the trade.
    By my review, I see only four years which you could argue not to make the trade:

    2001
    17. SEA - Steve Hutchinson OG
    73. JAC - Eric Westmoreland LB
    82. SEA - Heath Evans RB

    1979
    17. ATL - Don Smith NT
    73. SD - Cliff Thrift LB
    82. SF - Joe Montana QB

    1974
    17. MIN - Fred McNeil LB
    73. CIN - Evan Jolitz LB
    82. PIT - John Stallworth

    1967
    17. OAK - Gene Upshaw OG
    73. PIT - Rocky Freitas OT
    82. NYG - Louis Thompson

    The only year where more than one player made an impact (for a period of significant time) in the NFL is 1974.
    This also kinda points out the crap shoot that the draft is...

    Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
    I might add 1997 with Jason Taylor and 1990 with Emmitt Smith as years that you probably don't make that trade........
    Missed Emmitt...would make that trade then, but not now...we have Purple Jesus.
    Thought about 1997...passed; too much to give due to his age IMO.
    The idea I was taking was that you would get the three guys listed as rookies.
    So getting Taylor as a rookie and his subsequent career plus the two other guys would be something I might take over Allen.


    I am not sure why you mentioned his age as a factor...........

  4. #44
    jmcdon00's Avatar
    jmcdon00 is offline Jersey Retired Snake Champion, Moto Trial Fest 2: Mountain Pack Champion, LL City Truck 2 Champion, Arithmetic sequence Champion, Troops Tower Defense Champion
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    Thanks overlord, actually I pulled the number out of my jiggly butt. I remembered approximately from your other post, http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=44137.msg768522#msg768522.
    According to that the cap hit could be as much as 20.11 million.

    I think people are right though when they say the cap will be much larger by 2012. I'm just saying that generally making someone the highest paid player is not the way to build long term success because it takes away from the flexibility the team has in the future.
    I guaran-damn-tee you that in 2012, the highest-paid player on the Minnesota Vikings will be Adrian Peterson.

    =Z=
    Pretty big claim, a lot of things can happen in 4 years. I could see Rice being the highest paid(and best) WR in football. Also if Peterson rushes for 1600 yards the next 4 years they may think twice before giving him the big money, see Shaun Alexander. Plus even if you figure the Cap will be about 160mil if Allen is making 19mil and Adrian is making more than that you would have 1/4(40mil) of the cap used on 2 players, not so sure that is the way to win a championship.

  5. #45
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "Overlord" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44755.msg775969#msg775969 date=1210180179]
    [quote author=jmcdon00 link=topic=44755.msg775962#msg775962 date=1210177933]
    I wonder about the long term affects this trade will have. In the final year of the contract Allen will have a cap hit of about 19million.
    How do you figure?

    http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/04/23/vikes-build-some-protection-into-allen-deal/

    Allen’s base salaries for 2011, 2012, and 2013 and $8,979,438, $11,619,850, and $14,280,612, respectively.
    Where's the other $5 million?

    Plus - keep in mind that in 2013, the NFL will be operating under a new CBA and with a salary cap (my own silly projection here - based on a $10 million bump/year between now and then - assuming they don't end up with uncapped years in 2010 and beyond) of somewhere around $160 million.

    =Z=
    $14.2M for Salary + $2.58M for signing bonus ($15.5/6years) = $16.78m for CAP hit in his final year.


    Keep in mind 2 things.


    1). At the rate the NFL is going under the current CBA, the Salary Cap should increase another $30M or so over that time?
    So the cap hit is less severe for his contract.

    B.) If they don't work pooh out there might not be a Salary Cap.
    :-\

    edit: or read what Z wrote
    :P
    Either way, I'm pretty sure over the last half of the contract allen or the Vikes will Re-negotiate if they fall into a cap problem, which i doubt bc, we've been one of the best teams out there related to cap management...

    With that said, he's worth every penny and if we continue to draft well and sign back key players, we're gonna be set regardless of who we loose in FA...
    Well, as the contract stands right now the cap hit for the last year of his contract is $16.78 million as mentioned by seaniemck7.


    However, Jared Allen is due an $8 million roster bonus in the third year of the contract.
    Right now, that stands to be an $8 million cap hit in 2010 (if there is a cap), bringing the total 2010 cap number to $16.9 million.
    Assuming that there is a cap, that $8 million is almost certainly going to be guaranteed so that it can be prorated over the last 4 years of the contract.

    That would get the 2010 cap hit down to $10.9 million.
    And it would increase the cap hit in the last year of the contract to $18.78 million, which was where jmcdon00 got his number.
    It doesn't matter if its guaranteed.
    The only way that gets prorated is if the renegotiate his contract and convert that Roster bonus to a Signing bonus.
    Roster bonuses count, in full, for the current year.
    Signing bonuses hit the cap at a prorated amount over the life (or remaining years) of the contract.

    This is what what Peyton Manning was so highly praised for last year (humongous eyeroll) even though he gets paid the exact same amount.
    Its all how its allocated against the cap.
    [/quote]

    There are actually a lot of things treated the same way as signing bonuses for the purposes of the CBA, including a guaranteed reporting bonus (CBA Article XXIV, Section 7).
    This came up with the Michael Vick case.
    He had a roster bonus, but the contract gave the team the option to guarantee the roster bonus so that it would be treated as a signing bonus in terms of proration.
    If they don't have similar language in the contract, then the contract would have to be changed.

    Anyway, it's a lot of semantics.
    I think there's about a 95% chance that the bonus gets prorated if there is still a cap in 2010.
    [/quote]

    I'd have to agree with the later.. Roster bonuses count in the year they are paid.. that's why we have soooo much cap room every year in addition to the fact we calc. in LTBEI's likely to be earned incentives which are not likely to be earned that count in the year the contract is signed...

    Roster bonuses are not/cannot be prorated over the life of the contract.. that's why Mike Vick one his case and didn't have to pay back the money, bc, if it was prorated over the life of the contract, he wouldn't earned that money bc, it's still on the "books" and therefore, must be paid back.. but because it was a roster bonus, it was deemed that he had already "EARNED" the money and therefore, he was not entitled to pay it back....

    or something like that... ;D

  6. #46
    seaniemck7's Avatar
    seaniemck7 is offline Hall of Famer
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "Overlord" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    [quote author=Zeus link=topic=44755.msg775969#msg775969 date=1210180179]
    [quote author=jmcdon00 link=topic=44755.msg775962#msg775962 date=1210177933]
    I wonder about the long term affects this trade will have. In the final year of the contract Allen will have a cap hit of about 19million.
    How do you figure?

    http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/04/23/vikes-build-some-protection-into-allen-deal/

    Allen’s base salaries for 2011, 2012, and 2013 and $8,979,438, $11,619,850, and $14,280,612, respectively.
    Where's the other $5 million?

    Plus - keep in mind that in 2013, the NFL will be operating under a new CBA and with a salary cap (my own silly projection here - based on a $10 million bump/year between now and then - assuming they don't end up with uncapped years in 2010 and beyond) of somewhere around $160 million.

    =Z=
    $14.2M for Salary + $2.58M for signing bonus ($15.5/6years) = $16.78m for CAP hit in his final year.


    Keep in mind 2 things.


    1). At the rate the NFL is going under the current CBA, the Salary Cap should increase another $30M or so over that time?
    So the cap hit is less severe for his contract.

    B.) If they don't work pooh out there might not be a Salary Cap.
    :-\

    edit: or read what Z wrote
    :P
    Either way, I'm pretty sure over the last half of the contract allen or the Vikes will Re-negotiate if they fall into a cap problem, which i doubt bc, we've been one of the best teams out there related to cap management...

    With that said, he's worth every penny and if we continue to draft well and sign back key players, we're gonna be set regardless of who we loose in FA...
    Well, as the contract stands right now the cap hit for the last year of his contract is $16.78 million as mentioned by seaniemck7.


    However, Jared Allen is due an $8 million roster bonus in the third year of the contract.
    Right now, that stands to be an $8 million cap hit in 2010 (if there is a cap), bringing the total 2010 cap number to $16.9 million.
    Assuming that there is a cap, that $8 million is almost certainly going to be guaranteed so that it can be prorated over the last 4 years of the contract.

    That would get the 2010 cap hit down to $10.9 million.
    And it would increase the cap hit in the last year of the contract to $18.78 million, which was where jmcdon00 got his number.
    It doesn't matter if its guaranteed.
    The only way that gets prorated is if the renegotiate his contract and convert that Roster bonus to a Signing bonus.
    Roster bonuses count, in full, for the current year.
    Signing bonuses hit the cap at a prorated amount over the life (or remaining years) of the contract.

    This is what what Peyton Manning was so highly praised for last year (humongous eyeroll) even though he gets paid the exact same amount.
    Its all how its allocated against the cap.
    [/quote]

    There are actually a lot of things treated the same way as signing bonuses for the purposes of the CBA, including a guaranteed reporting bonus (CBA Article XXIV, Section 7).
    This came up with the Michael Vick case.
    He had a roster bonus, but the contract gave the team the option to guarantee the roster bonus so that it would be treated as a signing bonus in terms of proration.
    If they don't have similar language in the contract, then the contract would have to be changed.

    Anyway, it's a lot of semantics.
    I think there's about a 95% chance that the bonus gets prorated if there is still a cap in 2010.
    [/quote]

    True enough, but I think Vick's contract had that language built in there. Also the Vick case had to do with reimbursement, not Cap allocation.
    But whatever... Brzenzki is a master mind in whom I have full confidence in managing the Cap.
    I hope he has an understudy for the future.

  7. #47
    MaxVike's Avatar
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "GALLY" wrote:
    "MaxVike" wrote:
    "GALLY" wrote:
    "MaxVike" wrote:
    This adds significant perspective and provides one hell of an argument for the trade.
    By my review, I see only four years which you could argue not to make the trade:

    2001
    17. SEA - Steve Hutchinson OG
    73. JAC - Eric Westmoreland LB
    82. SEA - Heath Evans RB

    1979
    17. ATL - Don Smith NT
    73. SD - Cliff Thrift LB
    82. SF - Joe Montana QB

    1974
    17. MIN - Fred McNeil LB
    73. CIN - Evan Jolitz LB
    82. PIT - John Stallworth

    1967
    17. OAK - Gene Upshaw OG
    73. PIT - Rocky Freitas OT
    82. NYG - Louis Thompson

    The only year where more than one player made an impact (for a period of significant time) in the NFL is 1974.
    This also kinda points out the crap shoot that the draft is...

    Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
    I might add 1997 with Jason Taylor and 1990 with Emmitt Smith as years that you probably don't make that trade........
    Missed Emmitt...would make that trade then, but not now...we have Purple Jesus.
    Thought about 1997...passed; too much to give due to his age IMO.
    The idea I was taking was that you would get the three guys listed as rookies.
    So getting Taylor as a rookie and his subsequent career plus the two other guys would be something I might take over Allen.


    I am not sure why you mentioned his age as a factor...........
    Chalk it up to a brainfart due to trying to be a fan and work at the same time
    ;D.
    Bottom line, I listed the four years I might consider as better than a 26 year old Pro-Bowler and missed Emmitt.
    Age, you're right, is not a factor...my bad.

    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
    ----------------------------------------------
    As a matter of fact, I do know

  8. #48
    GALLY is offline Starter
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    Re: Jared Allen vs the picks we gave up

    "MaxVike" wrote:
    Chalk it up to a brainfart due to trying to be a fan and work at the same time
    ;D.
    Bottom line, I listed the four years I might consider as better than a 26 year old Pro-Bowler and missed Emmitt.
    Age, you're right, is not a factor...my bad.

    Damn,
    I hate it when work gets in the way of fun times............he he he

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