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  1. #21
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    Really Harvey could be a LE in our scheme.
    There really isn't much difference between RDE and LDE in a cover 2.
    Colts LE: Mathis (240)
    Bears LE: Ogunleye (260)

    Other teams that I am not sure if they run cover 2 or not
    Bills: Kelsay 261
    Eagles:Thomas 250
    Rams: Little 263

    I could care less how big our LDE is.
    I am not sure but I think Udeze shed some pounds to get quicker so I don't think he even weighed the 280 he's listed at.
    Really what is important is that they can get up the field and pressure the QB.
    And for good measures here is the guy I want showing how us all how to bull rush http://youtube.com/watch?v=K5oYwvzzKVA.
    If he isn't there my #2 option is Merling but I think Harvey just has a better burst off the edge

  2. #22
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    "BBQ" wrote:
    Frankly, I have no idea who I would "like" the Vikings to pick.
    I wouldn't be upset if we picked Merling - provided that Harvey isn't still available.
    I wouldn't go nearly as far as Marrdro in picking him over Harvey.
    This defense needs a pass rusher more than it needs a run stuffer - we HAVE linebackers and interior linemen.
    It's not like we'd be putting a cornerback in there at left end, either.
    I hear ya my friend on Harvey, who is by far a better edge rusher, but people seem to discount Merlings pass rush ability for such a big man.

    He can not only stop the run, get after the QB from the edge but collapse the pocket as well.
    That is a huge amount of flexibility that has a guy by the name of Gholston going so high.
    Put a guy like that anywere on the DL and our RDE's will increase thier sack totals I suspect.

    (By the way, I'm not comparing Merling to Gholston).
    ;D

    My biggest worry (other than the hernia) is the fact that Kiper likes him and ranks him pretty high.


    http://www.nfl-draft-site.com/2008/0...-for-2008.html
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #23
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    "DiehardVikesFan" wrote:
    Really Harvey could be a LE in our scheme.
    There really isn't much difference between RDE and LDE in a cover 2.
    Colts LE: Mathis (240)
    Bears LE: Ogunleye (260)

    Other teams that I am not sure if they run cover 2 or not
    Bills: Kelsay 261
    Eagles:Thomas 250
    Rams: Little 263

    I could care less how big our LDE is.
    I am not sure but I think Udeze shed some pounds to get quicker so I don't think he even weighed the 280 he's listed at.
    Really what is important is that they can get up the field and pressure the QB.
    And for good measures here is the guy I want showing how us all how to bull rush http://youtube.com/watch?v=K5oYwvzzKVA.
    If he isn't there my #2 option is Merling but I think Harvey just has a better burst off the edge
    thank you!!!... i totally agree.. LDE/RDE.. i think they are all pretty much interchangeable... Even Udeze had more sacks at LDE 5 than RDE 0.... so what difference does it make what side they are on... we have the williams wall and therefore, LDE/RDE.. i don't think it matters as long as we get a pass rush...

    I'm not worried about the run.. plus, it's not like a smaller DE can't stop the run... half the time they're blocked by a TE and then maybe a runningback.. if you double them, then hey, you have 2 LB's running in that direction plus a safety.. i don't think it'll be a problem...

    As far as Brohm, he may go in the first, but I don't think it's likely at this point.. bc, if someone didn't get Brohm, a decent consolation prize would be Henne, Flacco,and maybe even Woodson.. if it wasn't for the senior bowl, he'd arguably be the 2nd rated passer in the draft....

    I don't think any safety is worth a 1st round pick... maybe second.. we could possibly even get Reggie Smith in the 3rd..

    If a DE isnt' there, i'd be happy to get one of the Elite corners, Mike Jenkins (hits like a ton of bricks), DRC (super athlete), or Leonidis McKelvin..

    Quentin Groves, is another name noone is talking about and i'd be happy with him as well... he's kind of a tweener, ala Terrell Suggs.. whom if yall don't remember everyone wanted him when we thought he was gonna be a free agent... and Groves is the same size as Derek Harvey.... So why isn't anyone talking about him???....

  4. #24
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "DiehardVikesFan" wrote:
    Really Harvey could be a LE in our scheme.
    There really isn't much difference between RDE and LDE in a cover 2.
    Colts LE: Mathis (240)
    Bears LE: Ogunleye (260)

    Other teams that I am not sure if they run cover 2 or not
    Bills: Kelsay 261
    Eagles:Thomas 250
    Rams: Little 263

    I could care less how big our LDE is.
    I am not sure but I think Udeze shed some pounds to get quicker so I don't think he even weighed the 280 he's listed at.
    Really what is important is that they can get up the field and pressure the QB.
    And for good measures here is the guy I want showing how us all how to bull rush http://youtube.com/watch?v=K5oYwvzzKVA.
    If he isn't there my #2 option is Merling but I think Harvey just has a better burst off the edge
    thank you!!!... i totally agree.. LDE/RDE.. i think they are all pretty much interchangeable... Even Udeze had more sacks at LDE 5 than RDE 0.... so what difference does it make what side they are on... we have the williams wall and therefore, LDE/RDE.. i don't think it matters as long as we get a pass rush...

    I'm not worried about the run.. plus, it's not like a smaller DE can't stop the run... half the time they're blocked by a TE and then maybe a runningback.. if you double them, then hey, you have 2 LB's running in that direction plus a safety.. i don't think it'll be a problem...

    As far as Brohm, he may go in the first, but I don't think it's likely at this point.. bc, if someone didn't get Brohm, a decent consolation prize would be Henne, Flacco,and maybe even Woodson.. if it wasn't for the senior bowl, he'd arguably be the 2nd rated passer in the draft....

    I don't think any safety is worth a 1st round pick... maybe second.. we could possibly even get Reggie Smith in the 3rd..

    If a DE isnt' there, i'd be happy to get one of the Elite corners, Mike Jenkins (hits like a ton of bricks), DRC (super athlete), or Leonidis McKelvin..

    Quentin Groves, is another name noone is talking about and i'd be happy with him as well... he's kind of a tweener, ala Terrell Suggs.. whom if yall don't remember everyone wanted him when we thought he was gonna be a free agent... and Groves is the same size as Derek Harvey.... So why isn't anyone talking about him???....
    Still haven't convinced ya yet huh.

    ;D

    When I talk about our DE's (Left and Right) it is important to remember that I am talking about our Base 4-3 (starters) and not guys that rotate in during obvious passing (3rd and long) situations.
    In those situations you will see smaller DE's or even edge rushers come in to get to the QB quick.

    By the way, I hate Tweeners.
    Kindof lets the opposing O-coord know what your intentions are if you have a guy that is a small DE in there.
    Again, if it is 3rd and long they have a place but if it is in the base 4-3 then they have no role and take up a roster spot.
    Gimme a guy that is 260ish on the right side and a guy 280ish on the left with the attributes associated to thier positions and you will be able to stop the run, pressure the QB and not be predictable.

    Here is a great link that best describes the type of 4-3 we run to include each players role.
    I can't see the slides here at work but hope you guys can.
    Turn the "Way Back Machine on" and a few of you will remember a few Vikings Names.

    Before we go any further, let’s talk about personnel.
    You want to get your best players on the field.
    The open side Defensive End has to be one of your best football players.
    Size does not matter as much.
    We want an athletic player who can move around.

    At Nose Tackle you have to find a player who likes to mix it up.
    We want a big guy in there who likes to get down and dirty.
    He is going to get doubled a lot on the run and pass and is going to get down blocked a lot.
    He has to be a tough player.
    This guy can be a short and stubby type of player.

    The other defensive tackle the 3 technique player should be your premier interior pass rusher.
    He is going to get a lot of one on one blocks as it is hard to double team him because of where he lines up.


    The defensive end to the tight end side needs to be a defensive player that can play the run. He does not have to be a big time pass rusher.
    He has to play the C gap and stop the run.
    http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.co...z_schemes.html

    Some stuff to help differentiate between a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.

    http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/ge...r01400&Locale=

    Most of the players coming up through the college ranks are what the scouts call “tweeners,” players who are too small to play end in the NFL but not fast enough to play the outside linebacker. The result is that most of the teams playing a 4-3 are required to use substitution packages – one set of linemen for passing situations and another for running situations.
    Not tweeneres.

    In the 4-3 defense, you need two very large and athletic defensive tackles and two somewhat large and very athletic defensive ends. These guys are very hard to find. It seems there's about one excellent defensive end prospect in each draft, which is not nearly enough to go around. If you can't find a couple of good defensive ends, you're in for a long season of living and dying by the blitz.
    Best use for a tweener is in a 3-4.
    [url=http://[url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/Defensive...Line3.html</a>

    The outside linebackers in a 3-4 defense, though, are the playmakers. They are often referred to as "tweeners" because their size and athleticism fall somewhere between that of the outside linebacker and the defensive end in a 4-3 defense.
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the...n-football.htm

    Another reason why the 3-4 works is that it causes match up problems. With only three down lineman, this scheme seems to put the defense at a size disadvantage up front. The solution: bigger defensive lineman. Prototypical 4-3 defensive ends like Tampa Bay’s Simeon Rice weigh around 275-290, which helps them rush the quarterback. Prototypical 3-4 ends such as New England’s Marquis Hill and Dallas’ Marcus Spears tip the scale at 330 and 320, respectively. Their bulk allows them to tie up offensive linemen in run support and give them the flexibility to move inside to defensive tackle when the defense switches to a 4-3 front. The standard 4-3 defensive tackles are also built for penetration. They normally weigh around 285-300. A prime example is Warren Sapp during his Pro Bowl days at Tampa Bay. A 3-4 defensive tackle, or nose guard, are only there to clog the inside of the line. Road-graders like New England’s Vince Wilfork weighs in at a buffet-breaking 345. That much mass in three players make life for the four linebackers much easier
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    A few comments on guys coming out last year related to size.

    Gaines Adams, Clemson, 6-5, 258, SR:
    Adams lacks the prototypical size of an elite-level defensive end
    Adam Carriker, Nebraska, 6-6, 296, SR: He might lack the flashy sack totals, but Carriker's size and strength at the point of attack make him the draft's most versatile defensive lineman
    Jamaal Anderson, Arkansas, 6-6, 288, JR
    His production was partially aided by lining up at left end (opposite the weaker pass-blocking right tackle) throughout his junior season and was often the beneficiary of stunts designed to free him from blockers.
    Jarvis Moss, Florida, 6-7, 250, JR
    Moss' speed off the edge and height make him one of the intriguing pass rushers in this draft. He lacks strength at the point of attack, however, and while athletic, is not viewed as a natural candidate to move to linebacker.
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    In short, IMHO there are in fact two distincts roles and responsibilities when it comes to a RDE and LDE in our scheme in our base 4-3 defensive set as well as a role for an edge rusher but they are not one in the same nor the edge rusher stand up to the pounding a Base 4-3 end will take.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #25
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Posts
    3,955

    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "DiehardVikesFan" wrote:
    Really Harvey could be a LE in our scheme.
    There really isn't much difference between RDE and LDE in a cover 2.
    Colts LE: Mathis (240)
    Bears LE: Ogunleye (260)

    Other teams that I am not sure if they run cover 2 or not
    Bills: Kelsay 261
    Eagles:Thomas 250
    Rams: Little 263

    I could care less how big our LDE is.
    I am not sure but I think Udeze shed some pounds to get quicker so I don't think he even weighed the 280 he's listed at.
    Really what is important is that they can get up the field and pressure the QB.
    And for good measures here is the guy I want showing how us all how to bull rush http://youtube.com/watch?v=K5oYwvzzKVA.
    If he isn't there my #2 option is Merling but I think Harvey just has a better burst off the edge
    thank you!!!... i totally agree.. LDE/RDE.. i think they are all pretty much interchangeable... Even Udeze had more sacks at LDE 5 than RDE 0.... so what difference does it make what side they are on... we have the williams wall and therefore, LDE/RDE.. i don't think it matters as long as we get a pass rush...

    I'm not worried about the run.. plus, it's not like a smaller DE can't stop the run... half the time they're blocked by a TE and then maybe a runningback.. if you double them, then hey, you have 2 LB's running in that direction plus a safety.. i don't think it'll be a problem...

    As far as Brohm, he may go in the first, but I don't think it's likely at this point.. bc, if someone didn't get Brohm, a decent consolation prize would be Henne, Flacco,and maybe even Woodson.. if it wasn't for the senior bowl, he'd arguably be the 2nd rated passer in the draft....

    I don't think any safety is worth a 1st round pick... maybe second.. we could possibly even get Reggie Smith in the 3rd..

    If a DE isnt' there, i'd be happy to get one of the Elite corners, Mike Jenkins (hits like a ton of bricks), DRC (super athlete), or Leonidis McKelvin..

    Quentin Groves, is another name noone is talking about and i'd be happy with him as well... he's kind of a tweener, ala Terrell Suggs.. whom if yall don't remember everyone wanted him when we thought he was gonna be a free agent... and Groves is the same size as Derek Harvey.... So why isn't anyone talking about him???....
    Still haven't convinced ya yet huh.
    ;D

    When I talk about our DE's (Left and Right) it is important to remember that I am talking about our Base 4-3 (starters) and not guys that rotate in during obvious passing (3rd and long) situations.
    In those situations you will see smaller DE's or even edge rushers come in to get to the QB quick.

    By the way, I hate Tweeners.
    Kindof lets the opposing O-coord know what your intentions are if you have a guy that is a small DE in there.
    Again, if it is 3rd and long they have a place but if it is in the base 4-3 then they have no role and take up a roster spot.
    Gimme a guy that is 260ish on the right side and a guy 280ish on the left with the attributes associated to thier positions and you will be able to stop the run, pressure the QB and not be predictable.

    Here is a great link that best describes the type of 4-3 we run to include each players role.
    I can't see the slides here at work but hope you guys can.
    Turn the "Way Back Machine on" and a few of you will remember a few Vikings Names.

    Before we go any further, let’s talk about personnel.
    You want to get your best players on the field.
    The open side Defensive End has to be one of your best football players.
    Size does not matter as much.
    We want an athletic player who can move around.

    At Nose Tackle you have to find a player who likes to mix it up.
    We want a big guy in there who likes to get down and dirty.
    He is going to get doubled a lot on the run and pass and is going to get down blocked a lot.
    He has to be a tough player.
    This guy can be a short and stubby type of player.

    The other defensive tackle the 3 technique player should be your premier interior pass rusher.
    He is going to get a lot of one on one blocks as it is hard to double team him because of where he lines up.


    The defensive end to the tight end side needs to be a defensive player that can play the run. He does not have to be a big time pass rusher.
    He has to play the C gap and stop the run.
    http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.co...z_schemes.html

    Some stuff to help differentiate between a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.

    http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/ge...r01400&Locale=

    Most of the players coming up through the college ranks are what the scouts call “tweeners,” players who are too small to play end in the NFL but not fast enough to play the outside linebacker. The result is that most of the teams playing a 4-3 are required to use substitution packages – one set of linemen for passing situations and another for running situations.
    Not tweeneres.

    In the 4-3 defense, you need two very large and athletic defensive tackles and two somewhat large and very athletic defensive ends. These guys are very hard to find. It seems there's about one excellent defensive end prospect in each draft, which is not nearly enough to go around. If you can't find a couple of good defensive ends, you're in for a long season of living and dying by the blitz.
    Best use for a tweener is in a 3-4.
    [url=http://[url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html][url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/Defensive...Line3.html</a>

    The outside linebackers in a 3-4 defense, though, are the playmakers. They are often referred to as "tweeners" because their size and athleticism fall somewhere between that of the outside linebacker and the defensive end in a 4-3 defense.
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the...n-football.htm

    Another reason why the 3-4 works is that it causes match up problems. With only three down lineman, this scheme seems to put the defense at a size disadvantage up front. The solution: bigger defensive lineman. Prototypical 4-3 defensive ends like Tampa Bay’s Simeon Rice weigh around 275-290, which helps them rush the quarterback. Prototypical 3-4 ends such as New England’s Marquis Hill and Dallas’ Marcus Spears tip the scale at 330 and 320, respectively. Their bulk allows them to tie up offensive linemen in run support and give them the flexibility to move inside to defensive tackle when the defense switches to a 4-3 front. The standard 4-3 defensive tackles are also built for penetration. They normally weigh around 285-300. A prime example is Warren Sapp during his Pro Bowl days at Tampa Bay. A 3-4 defensive tackle, or nose guard, are only there to clog the inside of the line. Road-graders like New England’s Vince Wilfork weighs in at a buffet-breaking 345. That much mass in three players make life for the four linebackers much easier
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    A few comments on guys coming out last year related to size.

    Gaines Adams, Clemson, 6-5, 258, SR:
    Adams lacks the prototypical size of an elite-level defensive end
    Adam Carriker, Nebraska, 6-6, 296, SR: He might lack the flashy sack totals, but Carriker's size and strength at the point of attack make him the draft's most versatile defensive lineman
    Jamaal Anderson, Arkansas, 6-6, 288, JR
    His production was partially aided by lining up at left end (opposite the weaker pass-blocking right tackle) throughout his junior season and was often the beneficiary of stunts designed to free him from blockers.
    Jarvis Moss, Florida, 6-7, 250, JR
    Moss' speed off the edge and height make him one of the intriguing pass rushers in this draft. He lacks strength at the point of attack, however, and while athletic, is not viewed as a natural candidate to move to linebacker.
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    In short, IMHO there are in fact two distincts roles and responsibilities when it comes to a RDE and LDE in our scheme in our base 4-3 defensive set as well as a role for an edge rusher but they are not one in the same nor the edge rusher stand up to the pounding a Base 4-3 end will take.
    I understand your point.. and what that guy says if "prototypical".. but if we were to draft based on prototype or play our players based on Prototype.. then your missing the bigger point!.. especially related to our team and our team needs...

    I understand and never refuted the fact that a LDE would have prototypical size of 275-290.. but that doesn't mean you can't put a guy in there that is a little lighter.. i.e. a MIchael Strahan!...

    What's even funnier about that post is the fact that he mentions Simeon Rice as a typical rush end.. well simeon rice is only 268!.. that's just outside of your Prototypical department..!!..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Rice

    Plus, specifically speaking to our team needs, We need a rush end.. regardless of size or what side he plays on...
    Our problem last year was not against the run.. it was against the pass and rushing the QB.. if we don't have one of those on the roster.. i'd say that would be our biggest need and has been for awhile.. So, even if we put a smaller guy over there.. as long as he can stop the run, it shouldn't/doesn't matter how big he is... prototype is just a standard or "blueprint" if you will of what to look for.. that doens't mean someone that doesn't exactly fit that can't play there..
    I'd rather have a Player-maker there than a "prototypical" player there because he's the right size...

    So, please Marr.. try and think outside the box on this one.. sometimes, your so focused on exacts or the "blueprint" that you miss the bigger picture..

    I'd much rather draft a Pass rusher regardless of size, and see our run D slip a little bit, then draft a LDE that is a marginal pass rusher, and keep seeing opposing QB's sit back there all day and pick us apart... if you haven't noticed the success the Giants had against the most lethal offense ever assembled..

    additionally, as the league goes more toward a passing attack opposed to the run, we have more of a need to be able to stop the pass as well....

    So, alls i'm asking is that you think "OUTSIDE" the box a little.. and then you'll realize the bigger picture of what our team needs versus, what the Rule of Thumb paper says we need!...

  6. #26
    mountainviking's Avatar
    mountainviking is offline Team Alumni
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    As I recall...Udeze started all 16 games and got NO sacks when forced to play the opposite end after James went down the first time.
    The next year (last year) he went back to his natural position of LDE and got 5 sacks as well as being a big part of run stopping.

    Not sure how many of you guys get NFL Network, but they're running lots of ads for their show, Path to the Draft, and for the draft itself, that feature Pro players talking about their draft/combine/rookie experience.
    One of my favorites was Jared Allen who led the league in sacks last year.
    He talks about feeling kind of rushed and pushed about, with a tight, busy schedule, and how he got thrown on the bench with some guy yelling in his face, and all he could do was 16 or 17 reps, and how disappointed he was with himself that he couldn't get to 20.
    Oh Well.
    Last year, he was pretty much the best DE in all of football.

    Here's what I like about Merling:
    Last year he had 78 tackles, 51 solo, 7 sacks, 17 Tackles for Loss..."in the 51 running plays he was involved in, he held his opponent to a total of (-8 yards)!!"
    That is production.
    The hernia makes me nervous, cuz we need this guy this year, from game one on...so, it really depends on how his health checks out.
    If he's there at 17 and his hips/hernia looks good, I think he's our guy...and I also like Marrdro's idea of pulling a NYG page and putting him inside and getting faster guys outside sometimes on pass rushing downs.

    Harvey has a private interview scheduled with the Jets (no.6) and reportedly, NE (no.7) is thinking about talking to him too, as he has the tweener size to maybe be an OLB pass rusher from a 3-4 alignment.
    He probably won't be there at 17.

    Looks to me like the best DT, DE, and OT will all be gone by 17.
    I know its not Chilly's style, but I think we just might end up with Malcolm Kelly or maybe Sweed there in a BPA pick.
    There are going to be QBs available in the 2nd and 3rd who have the physical skills we're looking for and can learn behind TJack and whoever our vet QB ends up being for a year or two.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  7. #27
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "DiehardVikesFan" wrote:
    Really Harvey could be a LE in our scheme.
    There really isn't much difference between RDE and LDE in a cover 2.
    Colts LE: Mathis (240)
    Bears LE: Ogunleye (260)

    Other teams that I am not sure if they run cover 2 or not
    Bills: Kelsay 261
    Eagles:Thomas 250
    Rams: Little 263

    I could care less how big our LDE is.
    I am not sure but I think Udeze shed some pounds to get quicker so I don't think he even weighed the 280 he's listed at.
    Really what is important is that they can get up the field and pressure the QB.
    And for good measures here is the guy I want showing how us all how to bull rush http://youtube.com/watch?v=K5oYwvzzKVA.
    If he isn't there my #2 option is Merling but I think Harvey just has a better burst off the edge
    thank you!!!... i totally agree.. LDE/RDE.. i think they are all pretty much interchangeable... Even Udeze had more sacks at LDE 5 than RDE 0.... so what difference does it make what side they are on... we have the williams wall and therefore, LDE/RDE.. i don't think it matters as long as we get a pass rush...

    I'm not worried about the run.. plus, it's not like a smaller DE can't stop the run... half the time they're blocked by a TE and then maybe a runningback.. if you double them, then hey, you have 2 LB's running in that direction plus a safety.. i don't think it'll be a problem...

    As far as Brohm, he may go in the first, but I don't think it's likely at this point.. bc, if someone didn't get Brohm, a decent consolation prize would be Henne, Flacco,and maybe even Woodson.. if it wasn't for the senior bowl, he'd arguably be the 2nd rated passer in the draft....

    I don't think any safety is worth a 1st round pick... maybe second.. we could possibly even get Reggie Smith in the 3rd..

    If a DE isnt' there, i'd be happy to get one of the Elite corners, Mike Jenkins (hits like a ton of bricks), DRC (super athlete), or Leonidis McKelvin..

    Quentin Groves, is another name noone is talking about and i'd be happy with him as well... he's kind of a tweener, ala Terrell Suggs.. whom if yall don't remember everyone wanted him when we thought he was gonna be a free agent... and Groves is the same size as Derek Harvey.... So why isn't anyone talking about him???....
    Still haven't convinced ya yet huh.

    ;D

    When I talk about our DE's (Left and Right) it is important to remember that I am talking about our Base 4-3 (starters) and not guys that rotate in during obvious passing (3rd and long) situations.
    In those situations you will see smaller DE's or even edge rushers come in to get to the QB quick.

    By the way, I hate Tweeners.
    Kindof lets the opposing O-coord know what your intentions are if you have a guy that is a small DE in there.
    Again, if it is 3rd and long they have a place but if it is in the base 4-3 then they have no role and take up a roster spot.
    Gimme a guy that is 260ish on the right side and a guy 280ish on the left with the attributes associated to thier positions and you will be able to stop the run, pressure the QB and not be predictable.

    Here is a great link that best describes the type of 4-3 we run to include each players role.
    I can't see the slides here at work but hope you guys can.
    Turn the "Way Back Machine on" and a few of you will remember a few Vikings Names.

    Before we go any further, let’s talk about personnel.
    You want to get your best players on the field.
    The open side Defensive End has to be one of your best football players.
    Size does not matter as much.
    We want an athletic player who can move around.

    At Nose Tackle you have to find a player who likes to mix it up.
    We want a big guy in there who likes to get down and dirty.
    He is going to get doubled a lot on the run and pass and is going to get down blocked a lot.
    He has to be a tough player.
    This guy can be a short and stubby type of player.

    The other defensive tackle the 3 technique player should be your premier interior pass rusher.
    He is going to get a lot of one on one blocks as it is hard to double team him because of where he lines up.


    The defensive end to the tight end side needs to be a defensive player that can play the run. He does not have to be a big time pass rusher.
    He has to play the C gap and stop the run.
    http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.co...z_schemes.html

    Some stuff to help differentiate between a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.

    http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/ge...r01400&Locale=

    Most of the players coming up through the college ranks are what the scouts call “tweeners,” players who are too small to play end in the NFL but not fast enough to play the outside linebacker. The result is that most of the teams playing a 4-3 are required to use substitution packages – one set of linemen for passing situations and another for running situations.
    Not tweeneres.

    In the 4-3 defense, you need two very large and athletic defensive tackles and two somewhat large and very athletic defensive ends. These guys are very hard to find. It seems there's about one excellent defensive end prospect in each draft, which is not nearly enough to go around. If you can't find a couple of good defensive ends, you're in for a long season of living and dying by the blitz.
    Best use for a tweener is in a 3-4.
    [url=http://[url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html][url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html][url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/Defensive...Line3.html</a>

    The outside linebackers in a 3-4 defense, though, are the playmakers. They are often referred to as "tweeners" because their size and athleticism fall somewhere between that of the outside linebacker and the defensive end in a 4-3 defense.
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the...n-football.htm

    Another reason why the 3-4 works is that it causes match up problems. With only three down lineman, this scheme seems to put the defense at a size disadvantage up front. The solution: bigger defensive lineman. Prototypical 4-3 defensive ends like Tampa Bay’s Simeon Rice weigh around 275-290, which helps them rush the quarterback. Prototypical 3-4 ends such as New England’s Marquis Hill and Dallas’ Marcus Spears tip the scale at 330 and 320, respectively. Their bulk allows them to tie up offensive linemen in run support and give them the flexibility to move inside to defensive tackle when the defense switches to a 4-3 front. The standard 4-3 defensive tackles are also built for penetration. They normally weigh around 285-300. A prime example is Warren Sapp during his Pro Bowl days at Tampa Bay. A 3-4 defensive tackle, or nose guard, are only there to clog the inside of the line. Road-graders like New England’s Vince Wilfork weighs in at a buffet-breaking 345. That much mass in three players make life for the four linebackers much easier
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    A few comments on guys coming out last year related to size.

    Gaines Adams, Clemson, 6-5, 258, SR:
    Adams lacks the prototypical size of an elite-level defensive end
    Adam Carriker, Nebraska, 6-6, 296, SR: He might lack the flashy sack totals, but Carriker's size and strength at the point of attack make him the draft's most versatile defensive lineman
    Jamaal Anderson, Arkansas, 6-6, 288, JR
    His production was partially aided by lining up at left end (opposite the weaker pass-blocking right tackle) throughout his junior season and was often the beneficiary of stunts designed to free him from blockers.
    Jarvis Moss, Florida, 6-7, 250, JR
    Moss' speed off the edge and height make him one of the intriguing pass rushers in this draft. He lacks strength at the point of attack, however, and while athletic, is not viewed as a natural candidate to move to linebacker.
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    In short, IMHO there are in fact two distincts roles and responsibilities when it comes to a RDE and LDE in our scheme in our base 4-3 defensive set as well as a role for an edge rusher but they are not one in the same nor the edge rusher stand up to the pounding a Base 4-3 end will take.
    I understand your point.. and what that guy says if "prototypical".. but if we were to draft based on prototype or play our players based on Prototype.. then your missing the bigger point!.. especially related to our team and our team needs...

    I understand and never refuted the fact that a LDE would have prototypical size of 275-290.. but that doesn't mean you can't put a guy in there that is a little lighter.. i.e. a MIchael Strahan!...

    What's even funnier about that post is the fact that he mentions Simeon Rice as a typical rush end.. well simeon rice is only 268!.. that's just outside of your Prototypical department..!!..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Rice

    Plus, specifically speaking to our team needs, We need a rush end.. regardless of size or what side he plays on...
    Our problem last year was not against the run.. it was against the pass and rushing the QB.. if we don't have one of those on the roster.. i'd say that would be our biggest need and has been for awhile.. So, even if we put a smaller guy over there.. as long as he can stop the run, it shouldn't/doesn't matter how big he is... prototype is just a standard or "blueprint" if you will of what to look for.. that doens't mean someone that doesn't exactly fit that can't play there..
    I'd rather have a Player-maker there than a "prototypical" player there because he's the right size...

    So, please Marr.. try and think outside the box on this one.. sometimes, your so focused on exacts or the "blueprint" that you miss the bigger picture..

    I'd much rather draft a Pass rusher regardless of size, and see our run D slip a little bit, then draft a LDE that is a marginal pass rusher, and keep seeing opposing QB's sit back there all day and pick us apart... if you haven't noticed the success the Giants had against the most lethal offense ever assembled..

    additionally, as the league goes more toward a passing attack opposed to the run, we have more of a need to be able to stop the pass as well....

    So, alls i'm asking is that you think "OUTSIDE" the box a little.. and then you'll realize the bigger picture of what our team needs versus, what the Rule of Thumb paper says we need!...
    I see your point and understand that you beleive that we need a "Edge Rusher" more than a "Prototypical LDE" kindof guy.
    What confused me was this comment in your opening......

    i totally agree.. LDE/RDE.. i think they are all pretty much interchangeabl e...
    My response was geared toward the fact that they aren't the same and they aren't interchangeable in our Base 4-3 scheme.


    Now if your talking about just wanting another young "Edge Rusher" to throw into the mix of the other ones we have on the roster then I also see your point.
    I just disagree with you that another guy on the right side isn't what we need, at least in the draft and at 17.

    Truth be told, Jayme is gonna get pretty tired and wored down by about the 4 game if we don't find a guy that can rotate with him during the game, and no, I don't think one of the 260ish guys can rotate there in our base 4-3 scheme.
    Again, if you read the first article I gave you it kindof specifies why the guy at the LDE position needs to be a bit bigger that the guy on the right side.

    (By the way, could you see the slides?)

    As to Rice, you do realize that in Tampa he was predominantly a RDE that rotated at both positions based on down and distance and in Indy (notorious for giving up lots of running yards because of a smallish DL) he was one of thier biggest DE's.

    Quick question, how many sack attempts do you think our DE's will get if they defense is getting run on all the time because we can't stop the run?


    I for one would rather have the bigger guy in there to stop them on first and second down with minimal yardage so as to force them into a 3rd and long that takes longer to develop and gives our DE more time to get to the QB than to face 3rd and shorts (run or pass) all the time.
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #28
    MaxVike's Avatar
    MaxVike is online now Team Alumni
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    2,562

    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "DiehardVikesFan" wrote:
    Really Harvey could be a LE in our scheme.
    There really isn't much difference between RDE and LDE in a cover 2.
    Colts LE: Mathis (240)
    Bears LE: Ogunleye (260)

    Other teams that I am not sure if they run cover 2 or not
    Bills: Kelsay 261
    Eagles:Thomas 250
    Rams: Little 263

    I could care less how big our LDE is.
    I am not sure but I think Udeze shed some pounds to get quicker so I don't think he even weighed the 280 he's listed at.
    Really what is important is that they can get up the field and pressure the QB.
    And for good measures here is the guy I want showing how us all how to bull rush http://youtube.com/watch?v=K5oYwvzzKVA.
    If he isn't there my #2 option is Merling but I think Harvey just has a better burst off the edge
    thank you!!!... i totally agree.. LDE/RDE.. i think they are all pretty much interchangeable... Even Udeze had more sacks at LDE 5 than RDE 0.... so what difference does it make what side they are on... we have the williams wall and therefore, LDE/RDE.. i don't think it matters as long as we get a pass rush...

    I'm not worried about the run.. plus, it's not like a smaller DE can't stop the run... half the time they're blocked by a TE and then maybe a runningback.. if you double them, then hey, you have 2 LB's running in that direction plus a safety.. i don't think it'll be a problem...

    As far as Brohm, he may go in the first, but I don't think it's likely at this point.. bc, if someone didn't get Brohm, a decent consolation prize would be Henne, Flacco,and maybe even Woodson.. if it wasn't for the senior bowl, he'd arguably be the 2nd rated passer in the draft....

    I don't think any safety is worth a 1st round pick... maybe second.. we could possibly even get Reggie Smith in the 3rd..

    If a DE isnt' there, i'd be happy to get one of the Elite corners, Mike Jenkins (hits like a ton of bricks), DRC (super athlete), or Leonidis McKelvin..

    Quentin Groves, is another name noone is talking about and i'd be happy with him as well... he's kind of a tweener, ala Terrell Suggs.. whom if yall don't remember everyone wanted him when we thought he was gonna be a free agent... and Groves is the same size as Derek Harvey.... So why isn't anyone talking about him???....
    Still haven't convinced ya yet huh.

    ;D

    When I talk about our DE's (Left and Right) it is important to remember that I am talking about our Base 4-3 (starters) and not guys that rotate in during obvious passing (3rd and long) situations.
    In those situations you will see smaller DE's or even edge rushers come in to get to the QB quick.

    By the way, I hate Tweeners.
    Kindof lets the opposing O-coord know what your intentions are if you have a guy that is a small DE in there.
    Again, if it is 3rd and long they have a place but if it is in the base 4-3 then they have no role and take up a roster spot.
    Gimme a guy that is 260ish on the right side and a guy 280ish on the left with the attributes associated to thier positions and you will be able to stop the run, pressure the QB and not be predictable.

    Here is a great link that best describes the type of 4-3 we run to include each players role.
    I can't see the slides here at work but hope you guys can.
    Turn the "Way Back Machine on" and a few of you will remember a few Vikings Names.

    Before we go any further, let’s talk about personnel.
    You want to get your best players on the field.
    The open side Defensive End has to be one of your best football players.
    Size does not matter as much.
    We want an athletic player who can move around.

    At Nose Tackle you have to find a player who likes to mix it up.
    We want a big guy in there who likes to get down and dirty.
    He is going to get doubled a lot on the run and pass and is going to get down blocked a lot.
    He has to be a tough player.
    This guy can be a short and stubby type of player.

    The other defensive tackle the 3 technique player should be your premier interior pass rusher.
    He is going to get a lot of one on one blocks as it is hard to double team him because of where he lines up.


    The defensive end to the tight end side needs to be a defensive player that can play the run. He does not have to be a big time pass rusher.
    He has to play the C gap and stop the run.
    http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.co...z_schemes.html

    Some stuff to help differentiate between a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.

    http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/ge...r01400&Locale=

    Most of the players coming up through the college ranks are what the scouts call “tweeners,” players who are too small to play end in the NFL but not fast enough to play the outside linebacker. The result is that most of the teams playing a 4-3 are required to use substitution packages – one set of linemen for passing situations and another for running situations.
    Not tweeneres.

    In the 4-3 defense, you need two very large and athletic defensive tackles and two somewhat large and very athletic defensive ends. These guys are very hard to find. It seems there's about one excellent defensive end prospect in each draft, which is not nearly enough to go around. If you can't find a couple of good defensive ends, you're in for a long season of living and dying by the blitz.
    Best use for a tweener is in a 3-4.
    [url=http://[url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html][url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html][url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html][url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html][url=http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine3.html]http://football.calsci.com/Defensive...Line3.html</a>

    The outside linebackers in a 3-4 defense, though, are the playmakers. They are often referred to as "tweeners" because their size and athleticism fall somewhere between that of the outside linebacker and the defensive end in a 4-3 defense.
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the...n-football.htm

    Another reason why the 3-4 works is that it causes match up problems. With only three down lineman, this scheme seems to put the defense at a size disadvantage up front. The solution: bigger defensive lineman. Prototypical 4-3 defensive ends like Tampa Bay’s Simeon Rice weigh around 275-290, which helps them rush the quarterback. Prototypical 3-4 ends such as New England’s Marquis Hill and Dallas’ Marcus Spears tip the scale at 330 and 320, respectively. Their bulk allows them to tie up offensive linemen in run support and give them the flexibility to move inside to defensive tackle when the defense switches to a 4-3 front. The standard 4-3 defensive tackles are also built for penetration. They normally weigh around 285-300. A prime example is Warren Sapp during his Pro Bowl days at Tampa Bay. A 3-4 defensive tackle, or nose guard, are only there to clog the inside of the line. Road-graders like New England’s Vince Wilfork weighs in at a buffet-breaking 345. That much mass in three players make life for the four linebackers much easier
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    A few comments on guys coming out last year related to size.

    Gaines Adams, Clemson, 6-5, 258, SR:
    Adams lacks the prototypical size of an elite-level defensive end
    Adam Carriker, Nebraska, 6-6, 296, SR: He might lack the flashy sack totals, but Carriker's size and strength at the point of attack make him the draft's most versatile defensive lineman
    Jamaal Anderson, Arkansas, 6-6, 288, JR
    His production was partially aided by lining up at left end (opposite the weaker pass-blocking right tackle) throughout his junior season and was often the beneficiary of stunts designed to free him from blockers.
    Jarvis Moss, Florida, 6-7, 250, JR
    Moss' speed off the edge and height make him one of the intriguing pass rushers in this draft. He lacks strength at the point of attack, however, and while athletic, is not viewed as a natural candidate to move to linebacker.
    http://www.walterfootball.com/sim_34.php

    In short, IMHO there are in fact two distincts roles and responsibilities when it comes to a RDE and LDE in our scheme in our base 4-3 defensive set as well as a role for an edge rusher but they are not one in the same nor the edge rusher stand up to the pounding a Base 4-3 end will take.
    I understand your point.. and what that guy says if "prototypical".. but if we were to draft based on prototype or play our players based on Prototype.. then your missing the bigger point!.. especially related to our team and our team needs...

    I understand and never refuted the fact that a LDE would have prototypical size of 275-290.. but that doesn't mean you can't put a guy in there that is a little lighter.. i.e. a MIchael Strahan!...

    What's even funnier about that post is the fact that he mentions Simeon Rice as a typical rush end.. well simeon rice is only 268!.. that's just outside of your Prototypical department..!!..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Rice

    Plus, specifically speaking to our team needs, We need a rush end.. regardless of size or what side he plays on...
    Our problem last year was not against the run.. it was against the pass and rushing the QB.. if we don't have one of those on the roster.. i'd say that would be our biggest need and has been for awhile.. So, even if we put a smaller guy over there.. as long as he can stop the run, it shouldn't/doesn't matter how big he is... prototype is just a standard or "blueprint" if you will of what to look for.. that doens't mean someone that doesn't exactly fit that can't play there..
    I'd rather have a Player-maker there than a "prototypical" player there because he's the right size...

    So, please Marr.. try and think outside the box on this one.. sometimes, your so focused on exacts or the "blueprint" that you miss the bigger picture..

    I'd much rather draft a Pass rusher regardless of size, and see our run D slip a little bit, then draft a LDE that is a marginal pass rusher, and keep seeing opposing QB's sit back there all day and pick us apart... if you haven't noticed the success the Giants had against the most lethal offense ever assembled..

    additionally, as the league goes more toward a passing attack opposed to the run, we have more of a need to be able to stop the pass as well....

    So, alls i'm asking is that you think "OUTSIDE" the box a little.. and then you'll realize the bigger picture of what our team needs versus, what the Rule of Thumb paper says we need!...
    I see your point and understand that you beleive that we need a "Edge Rusher" more than a "Prototypical LDE" kindof guy.
    What confused me was this comment in your opening......

    i totally agree.. LDE/RDE.. i think they are all pretty much interchangeabl e...
    My response was geared toward the fact that they aren't the same and they aren't interchangeable in our Base 4-3 scheme.


    Now if your talking about just wanting another young "Edge Rusher" to throw into the mix of the other ones we have on the roster then I also see your point.
    I just disagree with you that another guy on the right side isn't what we need, at least in the draft and at 17.

    Truth be told, Jayme is gonna get pretty tired and wored down by about the 4 game if we don't find a guy that can rotate with him during the game, and no, I don't think one of the 260ish guys can rotate there in our base 4-3 scheme.
    Again, if you read the first article I gave you it kindof specifies why the guy at the LDE position needs to be a bit bigger that the guy on the right side.

    (By the way, could you see the slides?)

    As to Rice, you do realize that in Tampa he was predominantly a RDE that rotated at both positions based on down and distance and in Indy (notorious for giving up lots of running yards because of a smallish DL) he was one of thier biggest DE's.

    Quick question, how many sack attempts do you think our DE's will get if they defense is getting run on all the time because we can't stop the run?


    I for one would rather have the bigger guy in there to stop them on first and second down with minimal yardage so as to force them into a 3rd and long that takes longer to develop and gives our DE more time to get to the QB than to face 3rd and shorts (run or pass) all the time.

    ;D
    Prototype...from Dictionary.com - pro·to·type


    /ËË*proÃ*Å*təˌtaà ªp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[proh-tuh-tahyp] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb -typed, -typ·ing.
    –noun 1. the original or model on which something is based or formed.

    2. someone or something that serves to illustrate the typical qualities of a class; model; exemplar: She is the prototype of a student activist.

    3. something analogous to another thing of a later period: a Renaissance prototype of our modern public housing.

    4. Biology. an archetype; a primitive form regarded as the basis of a group.

    –verb (used with object) 5. to create the prototype or an experimental model of: to prototype a solar-power car.


    Prototype is what it is as it relates to size.
    There are other aspects to any position that are prototypical, like speed, strength, lateral movement, quickness, intellect, etc.
    I agree Marr, Merling has many of the ideal prototypical stats necessary to be a successful LDE (I agree also, there is a difference between LDE and RDE in the base defense).
    That said, I also agree that the Vikes need to find a way to increase pressure on the QB, period.
    If Merling can do that, bring him in.
    If Groves can do that, bring him in.
    Brian Robison fell to the Vikes because he doesn't have prototypical size for a DE, however, his speed, quickness, and "motor," define him as a football player.
    There are many players who have either played or are playing who have made up for less than "prototypical" size with other attributes:
    Barry Sanders, Zach Thomas, Sam Mills, Derrick Brooks (when he first came in to the League), Mike Singletary, Antoine Winfield, Maurice Jones-Drew, Joe Theisman, John Randle, Donte Hall, Bob Sanders, Simon Fletcher, Elvis Dumervil, Dwight Freeney, Zach Thomas, and Terrell Suggs to name a few.
    I realize these guys, for the most part, are elite at their position, and arguably, exceptions to the rule, but, they do illustrate a counterpoint to prototypical size.
    We need a man, regardless of size, who can rush the passer from the Defensive End position...otherwise, it is my opinion that Leslie Frazier will need to be the best blitz schemer in the League.

    I voted for Merling and hope we have the opportunity to bring him to Minnesota.
    More importantly, I hope he does what we so desperately need him to do.

    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent
    ----------------------------------------------
    As a matter of fact, I do know

  9. #29
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
    Mr Anderson is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    All this talk of "prototypical" defensive ends makes me laugh.

    Not every defensive end prospect is Mario Williams.

    There are very very few(if any besides him) people in the world who stand at 6'7" 295 pounds lean, run a 4.6 40 yard dash, have a 40+ inch vertical leap, and are NFL offensive lineman strong.

    He's the only "prototypical" defensive end prospect we've seen in the past few years.

    I'd go as far as to say he is a prototype being for the next level of human evolution.

  10. #30
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: If our pick comes up at 17 and Matt Ryan and Derrick Harvey are long gone..

    "Mr" wrote:
    All this talk of "prototypical" defensive ends makes me laugh.

    Not every defensive end prospect is Mario Williams.

    There are very very few(if any besides him) people in the world who stand at 6'7" 295 pounds lean, run a 4.6 40 yard dash, have a 40+ inch vertical leap, and are NFL offensive lineman strong.

    He's the only "prototypical" defensive end prospect we've seen in the past few years.

    I'd go as far as to say he is a prototype being for the next level of human evolution.
    So ya saw the quote I provided above then right?

    In the 4-3 defense, you need two very large and athletic defensive tackles and two somewhat large and very athletic defensive ends. These guys are very hard to find. It seems there's about one excellent defensive end prospect in each draft, which is not nearly enough to go around. If you can't find a couple of good defensive ends, you're in for a long season of living and dying by the blitz.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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