Overlord wrote:
Marrdro wrote:
Overlord wrote:
Marrdro wrote:
He wasn't looking for a ST's contract. He was looking to land as a starting LB for a team.
Are you trying to argue that Farwell isn't a good special teams player because nobody wanted him to play linebacker? Or maybe you were just trying to explain the 'less than he was looking for' contract suggestion?

It comes down to the same thing. It doesn't matter what he was looking for or what his skills at other positions are. What matters is the deal he got and the job he is actually asked to do.
I am actually trying to make 2 points....

1. He wanted to play LB'r. The Vikes were loading up on them so he saw that there wasn't any chance he would get that chance on this roster, thereby relegating him to a ST's role.

2. That ST's role was going to be quickly reduced by the play of the ST'rs the staff was adding around him which would in the end, even take that role away from him.

Those two items drove the second point.....He tried to shop his wares as a LB'r, but no one was interested.

My guess is that he might be even let loose this year. If not, this will be his last on this squad.

He is being asked to play on coverage teams, not to start (or even play more than mop-up duty) at linebacker. The Vikings knew this is the job they wanted him to do when they offered him the contract. For that job, he is being paid $2.5 million/year, which is much more than other folks doing the same job.
Again, I agree with this, but he took that job because he couldn't get a LB'r job someplace else and he felt comfortable with his role on the Vikes, atleast for last year.

This year, I believe he is gonna get alot of push from the rooks, to the point that the staff might have to make a hard decision and keep one of them on the roster at the expense of his role/roster spot.

The production of some of those cats added last year (Better than Heaths) will make that job a bit easier IMHO.

This relatively large pay check is evidence that the people signing those checks think he is significantly better than the average player doing the same job. The fact that such a contract was handed out after he lost a season to a major knee injury is further evidence that the team likes him a whole bunch. That's what I said originally when I brought up the contract and I stand by that.
I need to go look at what other ST's aces make. My guess is that his contract (1.25 mil) is right inline with what those cats get and a heck of alot more than they paid Kenny ($310,000.00) for 2009.

Early 2009 Vikings Salary Cap Numbers

As I said, youth with potential coupled together with his cost vs production, might just make him replaceable this year.
Okay, I'm trying to figure out exactly what your point is in all this. And I now think it's that last bit. You think he's not particularly good, and that might get cut this year. Is that a fair interpretation?
Yes, in relation to our discussion. One thing though, to be a bit more accurate, I am really saying that he isn't as good as he used to be.

Again, people act like I am a Farwell hater, when in fact I'm not. I'm just ready to point out when I believe that a player is starting to decline and am will to discuss when he might get chopped for a newer, younger, cheaper, version of said player.

If that's it, fair enough. You could be right. The Vikes will have a tight roster this year. Personally, I think special teams guys are generally replaceable and the special teams coach is what's most important. But I also think the money the Vikes have given Farwell is a sign they do like him.
Of course they like him, and I believe that they only resigned him last year because of the continuity that he brings to the table from the last Coord to the new Coord.

Now that things appear to be on the upswing, and a couple of other leaders have shown up, his services are pretty much expendable, especially at the cost.

With the other stuff though... I guess I'm going to wade through it.
I love it when we wade through it. Makes my day (even though I am a bit busy the next 3 or 4 weeks, enjoyable.

As to him wanting to play linebacker - yes, that's my understanding as well. I don't see how this is really relevant to how good of a special teams player he is. I do see how it is relevant to him making the roster if that earlier point is really what you were getting at.
If you take out the discussion points around this topic that were really being discussed in another light, you won't be confused.

I was only pointing out to the other poster that although Heath was offered contracts and he elected to come back to MN, he really wasn't offered what he was looking for.

As to his special teams role being reduced - I disagree. Was he on the sideline for punt and kick coverage last year? The fact that other players did a better job or got a few tackles doesn't reduce his role. Could there be more people in camp this year capable of taking his job though? Sure. But if he's on the roster he's almost certainly going to play on all the coverage snaps.
I wasn't specifically saying he had reduced snaps, I was saying that his role as the "ACE" of the ST's was probably surpassed by 2 or possibly 3 other players.

As to his contract - you seem to be saying two things: 1) that it's not that big; and 2) that it is bigger than other players that can do the same thing and so a reason to cut him. It's a little contradictory to say his contract is a liability and then say it is market value for a special teams coverage guy.
I don't think it is contradictory at all. My point was that league wide I wouldn't be suprised if it was about the same as what the other "ST's Aces" got.

From a "Team" perspective, a cat like Kenny, making a bit over 300,000 is a better bargain which would in turn be a consideration point when they get to roster cutdowns.

That said, if you think the Vikes are the only team that is able to find these players at league minimum salaries, then it's not completely unreasonable I suppose. I'm not 100% positive what special teams aces get. I would be very surprised if Farwell's number was not at the top end of that list. I did a quick search and I found 1 guy, Osgood, that is making about what Farwell is (just under $7 million over 3 years). That guy is a 3-time Pro Bowler as a coverage guy. Two other 'special teams ace' guys I saw, Sean Morey and is getting the veteran minimum and Landon Johnson's contract info I couldn't find, but he wasn't tendered as an RFA so I'd guess less than $1 million. I don't know that many special teams aces around the league, so it's tough for me to just sort through it in detail.
You have put more effort into that than I so I don't refute those numbers.

On a side note, I was talking to my Bengals fan (working a event with him) and he was saying that there aren't many "Aces" used by teams anymore, mostly because of the cost vs roster spots.

I promise I will do some more research when time permits, but again, I don't think Heath is really getting paid that much compared to league standards.


Also, as to Farwell's contract value - you are ignoring everything but the guaranteed money. To list his value at $1.25 million/year and then suggest he might get cut this year is misleading. If Farwell gets cut, he made at least $3.25 million for one season. That doesn't necessarily include his base salary from last year. If he plays one more season, he will get his guaranteed money plus any additional base salary from years one and two, which is likely to put the contract back in the $2.5 million/year range, or at an absolute minimum at $1.6 million/year. Anyway, I went over this already. It's one thing to say guaranteed money is important in the NFL because players can be cut at any time. It's another thing to ignore the non-guaranteed money. Particularly the way it's being talked about in this conversation.
I'm not ignoring anything. I just pulled a quick link up via google that would give me a bit of insight into how much Heath made compared to the other Vikes who play predominantly on ST's.

In short, its thier numbers, not mine.