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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    I ho downgrade Berrian to below Average fit for the WCO.

    Prior to last year he only caught 52% of passes thrown his way.

    His "Big Year" he caught 51% of passes thrown his way.

    Last year he only got up to 60% with Favre, despite a significant number of short routes/slants.

    Bringing in a good receiver from the draft would not be a bad thing to push Berrian or even take his place in the line-up.
    I can't stress this enough, but when you look at positions like WR you need to look at them with respect to how they fit in the puzzle that is the position.

    You have to have a mix/match of players that can not only get off the line and get into thier routes, but you have to have a guy that can exploit certain areas of the field. PH is a good fit for the short to intermediate routes/El Syd is good for the intermideate to the longer stuff with a focus on areas were a possesion guy is important and BB is a good fit to exploit the stuff further down the field.

    Some on here have been very vocal about his lack of speed with respect to those types of routes, which I kindof agree with, however, he did lead the league in ypc avg in 2008 so he was beating somebody.

    In the end, I don't think you can look at percentage of catches alone when you look at a player as the deep guy will typically, in this scheme, see alot less opportunities than the other two. 55 catches out of 90 isn't that bad considering the types of throws you will typically see for his piece of the puzzle.
    The problem is that Berrian was getting fed a ton of short passes last year and only came away with 60% of the balls.

    If he was lengthening the field at a 60% catch rate that would be good, I agree. But I am afraid he will go back to that 50% range if he is in shape to stretch the field.

    Its not a "sky is falling" kind of thing...its more of a, if this guy does not improve we may want to explore other options kind of thing. With AD, Shank, Harvin and Rice pulling attention away from Berrian he should be much more effective than he was last year.

    Gotta keep the fire under these guy's feet to keep em at 100%...
    I don't consider BB a guy that I would want to rely on catching short stuff in traffic. Again, back to my point. Thats PH job mostly with a bit of the load being handled by El Syd.

    The fact that BB can go ahead and do it, catch the ball in traffic, to the degree that he showed last year was mildly suprising to me.

    Again, he is the piece to the puzzle that catches the ball without alot of traffic around him. Its not his fault the staff elected to not exploit the deep ball as much as it did the previous year.
    I have to disagree on that one, Berrian was the main reason you didn't see more downfield throws. His hammies kept him from being a downfield threat. Berrian has to be in "top form" to be effective downfield. He isn't going to "out rebound" a guy for the ball like sydney or have the sheer hustle/play making ability of a Percy Harvin, he relies on establishing seperation and then catching the ball. With his hammies tweaked last year he just didn't have the ability to do that.

    If he doesn't get his legs back he is an average WR at best.
    His hammies were an issue, however, not all year. Truth of the matter is, at least for me, you use the same hammies to beat your guy off the line and get into your route, regardless of how far you are gonna run.

    In the end, I believe the staff made a concerted effort to not stretch the field last year, however, that rationale is for another thread and I won't go into it here.
    based on our success with the deep ball, I'm gonna have to call bullshit.

    Sure, we didn't do alot of 9 routes, because Rice isn't fast enough to create the separation that Berrian did, and Berrian was pretty iffy the first while, but we had monster success running Harvin and Rice down the seams, then hitting him 30/40+ yards downfield. If thats not a deep ball, please explain what you define as deep.
    I gotta agree, if Berrian was in shape to run those deep routes consistentley he would have seen more looks that way. I think the staff didn't want to take the "added risk" of losing BB for the season if they overworked him. With Harvin's Migraines "popping up" in the last half of the year when BB was getting better I think they just didn't want to take too many chances.

    I am looking forward to some 4 receiver sets next year so Berrian needs to be healthy and GLewis or a Rookie needs to be worked up by Favre this offseason.
    He had issues in 2008 as well and still managed to haul in 8 40+ from Gus and TJ, last year he had 1.

    Again, the Hammie issue was an issue, atleast at first, but his hammies weren't a issue all year. As I said, the same hammies he used to beat guys on the short routes were the same hammies he would have used on deep routes.

    Like it or not, statistically we didn't do a very good job of stretching the field, at least not enough to warrant teams from worrying about it, which brings me back you your point, BB is still a good fit for the scheme, he just wasn't used that way last year.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #22
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    Marrdro wrote:
    i_bleed_purple wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    I ho downgrade Berrian to below Average fit for the WCO.

    Prior to last year he only caught 52% of passes thrown his way.

    His "Big Year" he caught 51% of passes thrown his way.

    Last year he only got up to 60% with Favre, despite a significant number of short routes/slants.

    Bringing in a good receiver from the draft would not be a bad thing to push Berrian or even take his place in the line-up.
    I can't stress this enough, but when you look at positions like WR you need to look at them with respect to how they fit in the puzzle that is the position.

    You have to have a mix/match of players that can not only get off the line and get into thier routes, but you have to have a guy that can exploit certain areas of the field. PH is a good fit for the short to intermediate routes/El Syd is good for the intermideate to the longer stuff with a focus on areas were a possesion guy is important and BB is a good fit to exploit the stuff further down the field.

    Some on here have been very vocal about his lack of speed with respect to those types of routes, which I kindof agree with, however, he did lead the league in ypc avg in 2008 so he was beating somebody.

    In the end, I don't think you can look at percentage of catches alone when you look at a player as the deep guy will typically, in this scheme, see alot less opportunities than the other two. 55 catches out of 90 isn't that bad considering the types of throws you will typically see for his piece of the puzzle.
    The problem is that Berrian was getting fed a ton of short passes last year and only came away with 60% of the balls.

    If he was lengthening the field at a 60% catch rate that would be good, I agree. But I am afraid he will go back to that 50% range if he is in shape to stretch the field.

    Its not a "sky is falling" kind of thing...its more of a, if this guy does not improve we may want to explore other options kind of thing. With AD, Shank, Harvin and Rice pulling attention away from Berrian he should be much more effective than he was last year.

    Gotta keep the fire under these guy's feet to keep em at 100%...
    I don't consider BB a guy that I would want to rely on catching short stuff in traffic. Again, back to my point. Thats PH job mostly with a bit of the load being handled by El Syd.

    The fact that BB can go ahead and do it, catch the ball in traffic, to the degree that he showed last year was mildly suprising to me.

    Again, he is the piece to the puzzle that catches the ball without alot of traffic around him. Its not his fault the staff elected to not exploit the deep ball as much as it did the previous year.
    I have to disagree on that one, Berrian was the main reason you didn't see more downfield throws. His hammies kept him from being a downfield threat. Berrian has to be in "top form" to be effective downfield. He isn't going to "out rebound" a guy for the ball like sydney or have the sheer hustle/play making ability of a Percy Harvin, he relies on establishing seperation and then catching the ball. With his hammies tweaked last year he just didn't have the ability to do that.

    If he doesn't get his legs back he is an average WR at best.
    His hammies were an issue, however, not all year. Truth of the matter is, at least for me, you use the same hammies to beat your guy off the line and get into your route, regardless of how far you are gonna run.

    In the end, I believe the staff made a concerted effort to not stretch the field last year, however, that rationale is for another thread and I won't go into it here.
    based on our success with the deep ball, I'm gonna have to call bullshit.

    Sure, we didn't do alot of 9 routes, because Rice isn't fast enough to create the separation that Berrian did, and Berrian was pretty iffy the first while, but we had monster success running Harvin and Rice down the seams, then hitting him 30/40+ yards downfield. If thats not a deep ball, please explain what you define as deep.
    Couple of things....

    1. Yes, we did have some success with a few deep throws. That my friend, isn't exploiting the defenses when they stacked the boxes. Truth is, we had more deep throws that were incomplete than were complete.

    2. Rice isn't the guy that is supposed to stretch the field so why are you questioning his speed or ability to stretch the field?

    3. 40+ is the definition of a deep ball my friend, thats why its tracked that way on most stat pages.

    NFL Stats Page

    Statistically our ypc avg went down, drastically for our field stretcher, teams continued to stack the box, etc etc etc.

    Don't try to take this as a "Marrdro bashing the Noodle" point of discussion, as it isn't. Alot of issues contributed to this (Hammies, OL protection, etc).

    Call it bullshit all you want, but its the statistically the truth.
    I won't call it BS, thats rude...but...it does seem to have some serious undertones of "anti-Favre" bias.

    The "field stretchers" YPC goes down...but overall yardage goes up (more short passes/higher % for the whole offense).

    Despite the increase in short passes, the number of long plays is greater than 2008 despite Favre's slow start and lack of performance from the "field stretcher".

    The only thing we will agree on this one is that Berrian comes back to form next year...

    And I personally hope that Favre has some kind of lower body conditioning this offseason, because its not his arm that took something of those 40+ (50+yards through air) throws, it was his legs. You should be calling him chicken legs instead of noodle.
    None

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