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  1. #1
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    I thought it might be interesting to share my thoughts on how our players match-up with the WCO scheme we run and to get feedback from others on the board as well.

    First I listed some of the basic principles of the WCO(Ball control) offense that we run, and then my take on each player.


    What are the Key Charchteristics of the West Coast Offense?


    1. Strives to create mismatches all over the field by using a combination of motion and superior athletes in skill positions
    2. Ball control offense that relies upon short-pass to maintain possession
    3. More often starts heavy pass and transitions to run late in games to close out teams
    4. Utilizes motion out of the backfield to confuse defense and determine defensive scheme
    5. Works best with RBs that are both good runners and good pass catchers/route runners

    What are the Personnel Traits you look for in the West Coast Offense?

    1. A field general QB who can make quick reads and has a strong arm and quick release, long-ball ability is a bonus.
    2. Receivers that can run clean precise routes, early separation is key, and speed is a bonus. (Ball control receivers)
    3. Tight-ends that are superior route runners and pass catchers, a Tight End that can physically overmatch Linebackers(speed) and safeties (Size) downfield is a big plus.
    4. Running backs must be multi-dimensional, able to run the ball, pass protect, and run-routes/ catch pases like a WR
    5. Offensive linemen are generally more mobile and proficient at pulling and making the outside block than the norm and also proficient in the zone blocking scheme (ZBS)

    When does the West Coast Offense work best?
    1. The WCO works best and is more reliant upon depth of talent at the Skill positions than most others. Ideally you want 5 players on the field that can be effective in the passing game.
    2. The West Coast demands a good relationship/timing between the Quarterback and Receivers.
    3. When a West Coast offense creates mismatches by putting Running Backs in motion and lining 1 or 2 of them up as a route running receiver. (Primarily from a 2 back set)
    Taking all this into consideration, who fits best on the roster at the Skill Positions (RB,WR,TE)


    Skill Player Reviews

    Above Average Fits

    Adrian Peterson – Great RB, much improved pass catcher, ideal for creating mismatches by going in motion. Can he pick up the blitz?

    Sidney Rice – Good size to create match-up problems and good relationship/timing with QB make Sidney a Good fit.

    Percy Harvin – Flexibility and athletic skills make Percy a match-up nightmare.

    Visanthe Shiancoe – Ideal size and speed combination for a TE in the WCO. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw even greater performance out of Shank in 2010.

    Average Fits

    Bernard Berrian – Showed improved timing with QB throughout the year but unless he gets his speed back he will not be a match-up problem for most NFL teams.

    Darius Reynaud -Lack of experience as RB is biggest knock. He has the speed to cause match-up problems with linebackers and he is known for having good hands. He should be a better receiver out of the backfield than he was as a WR and might be able to stretch the field horizontally. If he can pick up blitz protection he would make a candidate for 3rd down RB/Scat back. Intriguing player to watch develop next year if he gets the snaps.

    Greg Lewis – Good route runner with good hands, but does not have the size/athletic ability to create match-up problems. Serviceable receiver in the WCO because of Route running.

    Below Average Fits

    Jimmy Kliensasser – Not a good fit, but his blocking skills should keep him on the roster until its time to retire.

    Albert Young – Lack of experience and lack of speed makes it difficult to forecast Young as a good receiver/route runner/match-up problem out of the backfield.

    Jaymar Johnson – Good speed, but doesn’t bring a great route running skill set and has average hands. Not a player you would forecast as a good match for the ball control WCO. Punt returning is his key to staying in the line-up. With Reynaud on the roster, pay close attention if the Vikings draft a CB/S that is a stud Punt Returner.

    Naufahu Tahi – Tahi is in a bad spot, with Kliensasser and Dugan also on the team and FB a less utilized position in the WCO his time may be up. Tahi does not bring the match-up problems (speed) or receiving capabilities that would make him a better fit as a FB in the WCO.

    Jeff Dugan – Jack of all trades and Master of none. Dugan, doesn’t have any skills that make him a great match-up for the WCO, but, his ability to line-up in the backfield and play special teams should pay dividends. If a hybrid FB/TE with good speed falls to the Vikings in the draft it could cause a shakeup.

    How does that line-up with your opinion? And remember, I am not saying any of these guys are bad players, just commenting on how they fit into the WCO scheme.
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  2. #2
    oaklandzoo24's Avatar
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    Re: How do our players match-up with WCO philosoph

    QB

    BF- A

    TJ- B-

    SR- C+

    RB:

    AP- B

    AY- C

    IJ- B-

    DR- B-

    FB:

    NT- D

    WR:

    SR- A

    BB- C+

    PH- A

    GL- C+

    JJ- D

    TE:

    VS- A-

    JK- C+

    JD- D+
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  3. #3
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    Holy shit......What a great post. Let me pick a few things apart though starting with the scheme discussion points.....

    a. What variant do we run? The criteria you listed is the basic cookie cutter scheme most attribute to the scheme as it was used by coach Walsh. Having said that, and because I think Coach Walsh was the greatest football mind in my era, I will stick with his precepts as I point out a few things about the scheme especially centered on your 2nd and 3rd criteria points.

    1. Strives to create mismatches all over the field by using a combination of motion and superior athletes in skill positions
    2. Ball control offense that relies upon short-pass to maintain possession
    3. More often starts heavy pass and transitions to run late in games to close out teams
    4. Utilizes motion out of the backfield to confuse defense and determine defensive scheme
    5. Works best with RBs that are both good runners and good pass catchers/route runners
    A few snippets from a site I like.

    In 'Finding A Winning Edge', Coach Walsh has also said, " The 'West Coast Offense' still amounts to nothing more than the total attention to detail and an appreciation for every facet of offensive football and refinement of those things that are needed to provide an environment that allows people to perform at maximum levels of self-actualization."

    Therefore, Bill Walsh's West Coast Offense is not just a split back, short pass throwing offense, it's much more....
    Every facet, not just the passing game.

    Coach Walsh had predicated his offense on controlling the ball through an opportunistic running game and timed high percentage short passes. As the opponents geared themselves up to stop it, Walsh's teams would have opportunities for the big strike down the field. "Nickel and dime offense"? It Works!
    Running and passing.

    The layout of a game plan is somewhat dependent upon the personal learning style of the head coach. Personal preference and sight lines play a part in the format for the development of the game plan. All game plans share several basic functional features, including:

    1. A game plan is the result of the combined thoughts of the coaching staff.
    2. A game plan is an interactive tool for both players and coaches.
    3. A game plan must be flexible to facilitate minor strategy adjustments.
    4. A game plan facilitates the breaking of tendencies without straying from the plan.
    5. A game plan provides for alternative strategies that allow the coordinator to stay within the scheme.
    6. A game plan addresses certain special situations and allows for creativity within the scheme.
    7. A game plan provides for a situational response.
    8. A game plan allows for a counter to a specific strategy of the opposition.
    9. A game plan allows for specific strategies that consider field position.
    Many formats exist, but regardless of the format used the offensive game plan should address a number of factors including a PRACTICED strategy for dealing with the situational, contingency, and reactive aspects of the offensive package.
    Play calling is tied to stratagies associated with the other teams weaknesses not only as a whole, but based on location on the field and down and distance.

    The Unofficial WCO Site

    Long story short, I think you are spot on with your criteria, however, when applied to the Vikes and thier variant of the WCO that we run. When I look at a team that runs the WCO, I look at them in 3 manners......

    1. Do they "Pass to setup the run".
    2. Do they "Run to setup the Pass".
    3. Or are they a "Exploit the defenses weakness".

    I believe, because of how this team was built, we run more of a 2 coming into last year and even with the Noodle, still tried to stick with the 2 more than the 3 because of some player experience.

    Having said that, I believe ultimately that the Chiller would rather have us be a 3 all the time.

    Again, what a great thread. Way to much to discuss in one reply.

    More to follow. By the way, definately spreadsheet promotion worthy my friend.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #4
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    What are the Personnel Traits you look for in the West Coast Offense?
    Not much to discuss as you have all the highlights listed, just want to add a bit to them using snippets from another WCO site I like that focuses alot on what Coach Walsh did with the scheme.

    Football 101: The West Coast Offense

    1. A field general QB who can make quick reads and has a strong arm and quick release, long-ball ability is a bonus.
    One of the most obvious requirements for a quarterback in the West Coast offense is have the ability to pass. It is important to realize that arm strength and being able to pass are not synonymous. Some players can throw a football 80 yards, but they aren't good passers. Good passing involves accuracy, timing, and throwing a ball with enough touch so that it is catchable. Good passing also requires understanding both the West Coast offense and the receivers in the West Coast offense, and having a great sense of anticipation.
    Not sure if you implied this with your comment, however, for me, anticipation is the key. The QB needs to be able to get a quick read of what is happening to his recievers and how they will run thier stem and make the associated adjustment to thier break, but to throw it to the spot before they get there.

    Mix that with the number one criterial for WR's (precise routes) and you have a deadly combination that is pretty damn hard to defend.

    2. Receivers that can run clean precise routes, early separation is key, and speed is a bonus. (Ball control receivers)
    Don't want to post the whole snippet on the WR's, however, the keys are as follows:

    1. The agility to change his body position is essential if a wide receiver is to be able to get his hips turned and his hands in position to catch a ball that is not perfectly thrown.

    2. Wide receivers in this offense must also be relatively strong.

    3. Soft hands are also vital.

    4. Wide receivers must also have the ability to focus.
    Then they start talking about speed.

    Football 101: WR Role in WCO

    3. Tight-ends that are superior route runners and pass catchers, a Tight End that can physically overmatch Linebackers(speed) and safeties (Size) downfield is a big plus.
    Here is were we will probably differ in our analysis of how well our TE's fit the scheme.

    The requirements for playing tight end depend primarily on the system a team deploys. Accordingly, a West Coast offense team must find the athlete who best fits the team's approach to the offense.
    Football 101: TE Role in WCO

    Basically I believe we have to have a variety when it comes to the TE for our scheme but ultimately I think that whatever type you run out there, the cat needs to be able to block as well as he can catch.

    This type of TE (call him a "Inline TE") does not tip your hand with respect to what play you are gonna run.

    Although Shanc appears to be our biggest weapon used with respect to our TE's, all of them can and will catch passes, but they are all blockers first.

    Again, gets back to what variant we run which I believe is a "Run to setup the pass" variant more than it is a "Pass to setup the run" variant.

    Long story short, most will disagree with me cause they love how the TE's are used in not only college but on other teams, but for our system, a Shanc/Sauce kindof of mix of capabilities is fine for our system.

    In our base offense (Two WR's, Two TE's), both TE's can block first and catch second with Shanc being the one that will exploit the middle intermediate to deep if he is left with a LB or S in coverage and Sauce being the guy who is used to help keep the QB upright.

    4. Running backs must be multi-dimensional, able to run the ball, pass protect, and run-routes/ catch pases like a WR
    Again, I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to a "Pass to setup the run" variant. Problem here is that we kindof do the opposite or atleast try to be able to whichever depending on what the other teams weakness is, which is why AD is such a good fit.

    5. Offensive linemen are generally more mobile and proficient at pulling and making the outside block than the norm and also proficient in the zone blocking scheme (ZBS)
    Although I've never heard anyone say that a OLmen must be able to excell in a ZB'ng scheme, I would say that you are not to far off target.....

    Again from the source web page

    The one absolute essential trait for offensive linemen in the West Coast offense is natural body girth. In addition to girth, offensive tackles in this offense must be very strong and a have a high level of agility. Agility by the linemen in this offense is needed because of the quick three and five step passing game. An offensive tackle should also have strong, long arms to facilitate those blocking tasks involving tasks involving leverage. From a blocking perceptive, however, the timing of the block itself is the critical factor. In addition, the offensive tackle must have intuitive sense of feeling or knowing where to intersect defenders.
    We've had alot of good threads done on this subject here on PPO, most of them go into the deep dark void that deals with how big our OL is as compared to a traditional ZB team.

    At one point I went as far as to point out that our OLmen were not only bigger than (I used Denver at the time) a traditional ZB OLmen, but the were faster (using thier 3 cone/short shuttle times) as well.

    I actually think our OLmen are picked because of thier abilities to run block first (again, back to the variant we run), pass block second.

    Hope this helps lay the ground work for the differences in grades that you and I will both have. Doesn't mean either of us are right or wrong, just means we look at the scheme a bit differently is all.
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  5. #5
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    When does the West Coast Offense work best?
    Again, I don't think you are to far off the mark here, however, I do want to point out that I think our scheme works the best when/if the coaching staff have gameplanned according to what our strengths are versus what the opposing teams weakeness are.

    I know that sound pretty basic, however, when one looks at the last Bores game last year I think it will be clearer.

    Tone of the game, atleast our first couple of series were to try to run the ball down thier throat instead of passing first.

    When one looked at the Bores, thier DL was struggling with stopping the run, but that didn't take into account the return of Harris. With him in there, coupled with thier secondary injuries, one would have thought we would have came in with the "Pass to setup the run" gameplan.

    Obviously the staff shot themselves in the foot and until they changed thier approach we were basically ineffective on offense.

    Having said that.......

    1. The WCO works best and is more reliant upon depth of talent at the Skill positions than most others. Ideally you want 5 players on the field that can be effective in the passing game.
    I think the WCO works best when you have a team that is talented enough to exploit the other teams weakness with your base offense.

    If we run out our typical 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 RB and can either run or pass out of it, then we are dictating to the defense as they will have to react to what happens.

    Now if we run out a 3 or 4 wide set, then we almost tip our hand that we are probably gonna look at passing first. The defense then can adjust with a nickle or dime package.


    2. The West Coast demands a good relationship/timing between the Quarterback and Receivers.
    100% agree with this. Comes back to some of the QB discussions we have been having with respect to the development of TJ.

    Not only wasn't the relationship there, our WR's could not get off the line and run precise routes which drastically affected the timing of the play.

    When TJ anticipated and threw to a spot, if the WR wasn't there, most said he wasn't accurate.

    In short, you can have the most accurate QB in the league, but if he and the WR's aren't on the same page or the WR's are running precise routes, the passing game will look ugly.


    3. When a West Coast offense creates mismatches by putting Running Backs in motion and lining 1 or 2 of them up as a route running receiver. (Primarily from a 2 back set) Taking all this into consideration, who fits best on the roster at the Skill Positions (RB,WR,TE)
    Never ever ever have I heard the term 2 back set used in conjuction with the WCO. Again, a snippet from the source url I listed earlier.....

    Instead Walsh and Edwards’ approach was to:

    spread the defense over a much bigger area of the field, both horizontally and vertically;


    create mismatches in the speed, size, or number of receivers defenders try to cover;


    thrown on any down and any distance to avoid tendencies that defenses could key on;


    maintain possession through the air just as other teams tried to do on the ground.
    These tenets formed the basis for what is now called the West Coast offense. This high-production, low risk offensive attack has proven itself over the years and is now used successfully by many teams at all levels. The West Coast offense appeals to high school coaches because it does not require players up front who can blow people off the ball, down after down, which is needed in a run based offense.

    The West Coast offense is a finesse attack that features both ball-control and big play potential. Ball control in way of short, intermediate, and play-action passing results in first downs, moving the chains down field and maintaining possession of the ball. A series of short passes soon add up to sizable gains, putting the defense back on its heels. Moreover, receivers who can run with the ball can turn short passes into long gains or even touchdowns.
    Could one read into that the ability to put 2 RB's in the backfield? I suppose, but I don't think it tracks with what Coach Walsh tried to do. If anything, he used less RB's in his play calling instead of more.

    Finally, using multiple receivers in the West Coast offense is a definite must. The design of the attack must include a secondary or dump off receiver along with a primary receiver. Their routes will complement each other so that; versus man coverage, a clearing action is provided by one receiver for the other, and versus zone coverage, the defender must make a choice of which receiver to cover.

    This design increases the chance for a completion, and permits the quarterback to get rid of the ball quickly, since he does not need to wait for his primary receiver to get open.
    Again, flood the zones with WR's hitting the first route that opens and progressing to the deeper routes, if none of those are open, then you hit the RB coming out late into to flat/voids vacated as the WR's ran thier stems.
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  6. #6
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    What are the Personnel Traits you look for in the West Coast Offense?
    Not much to discuss as you have all the highlights listed, just want to add a bit to them using snippets from another WCO site I like that focuses alot on what Coach Walsh did with the scheme.

    Football 101: The West Coast Offense

    1. A field general QB who can make quick reads and has a strong arm and quick release, long-ball ability is a bonus.
    One of the most obvious requirements for a quarterback in the West Coast offense is have the ability to pass. It is important to realize that arm strength and being able to pass are not synonymous. Some players can throw a football 80 yards, but they aren't good passers. Good passing involves accuracy, timing, and throwing a ball with enough touch so that it is catchable. Good passing also requires understanding both the West Coast offense and the receivers in the West Coast offense, and having a great sense of anticipation.
    Not sure if you implied this with your comment, however, for me, anticipation is the key. The QB needs to be able to get a quick read of what is happening to his recievers and how they will run thier stem and make the associated adjustment to thier break, but to throw it to the spot before they get there.

    Mix that with the number one criterial for WR's (precise routes) and you have a deadly combination that is pretty damn hard to defend.

    2. Receivers that can run clean precise routes, early separation is key, and speed is a bonus. (Ball control receivers)
    Don't want to post the whole snippet on the WR's, however, the keys are as follows:

    1. The agility to change his body position is essential if a wide receiver is to be able to get his hips turned and his hands in position to catch a ball that is not perfectly thrown.

    2. Wide receivers in this offense must also be relatively strong.

    3. Soft hands are also vital.

    4. Wide receivers must also have the ability to focus.
    Then they start talking about speed.

    Football 101: WR Role in WCO

    3. Tight-ends that are superior route runners and pass catchers, a Tight End that can physically overmatch Linebackers(speed) and safeties (Size) downfield is a big plus.
    Here is were we will probably differ in our analysis of how well our TE's fit the scheme.

    The requirements for playing tight end depend primarily on the system a team deploys. Accordingly, a West Coast offense team must find the athlete who best fits the team's approach to the offense.
    Football 101: TE Role in WCO

    Basically I believe we have to have a variety when it comes to the TE for our scheme but ultimately I think that whatever type you run out there, the cat needs to be able to block as well as he can catch.

    This type of TE (call him a "Inline TE") does not tip your hand with respect to what play you are gonna run.

    Although Shanc appears to be our biggest weapon used with respect to our TE's, all of them can and will catch passes, but they are all blockers first.

    Again, gets back to what variant we run which I believe is a "Run to setup the pass" variant more than it is a "Pass to setup the run" variant.

    Long story short, most will disagree with me cause they love how the TE's are used in not only college but on other teams, but for our system, a Shanc/Sauce kindof of mix of capabilities is fine for our system.

    In our base offense (Two WR's, Two TE's), both TE's can block first and catch second with Shanc being the one that will exploit the middle intermediate to deep if he is left with a LB or S in coverage and Sauce being the guy who is used to help keep the QB upright.

    4. Running backs must be multi-dimensional, able to run the ball, pass protect, and run-routes/ catch pases like a WR
    Again, I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to a "Pass to setup the run" variant. Problem here is that we kindof do the opposite or atleast try to be able to whichever depending on what the other teams weakness is, which is why AD is such a good fit.

    5. Offensive linemen are generally more mobile and proficient at pulling and making the outside block than the norm and also proficient in the zone blocking scheme (ZBS)
    Although I've never heard anyone say that a OLmen must be able to excell in a ZB'ng scheme, I would say that you are not to far off target.....

    Again from the source web page

    The one absolute essential trait for offensive linemen in the West Coast offense is natural body girth. In addition to girth, offensive tackles in this offense must be very strong and a have a high level of agility. Agility by the linemen in this offense is needed because of the quick three and five step passing game. An offensive tackle should also have strong, long arms to facilitate those blocking tasks involving tasks involving leverage. From a blocking perceptive, however, the timing of the block itself is the critical factor. In addition, the offensive tackle must have intuitive sense of feeling or knowing where to intersect defenders.
    We've had alot of good threads done on this subject here on PPO, most of them go into the deep dark void that deals with how big our OL is as compared to a traditional ZB team.

    At one point I went as far as to point out that our OLmen were not only bigger than (I used Denver at the time) a traditional ZB OLmen, but the were faster (using thier 3 cone/short shuttle times) as well.

    I actually think our OLmen are picked because of thier abilities to run block first (again, back to the variant we run), pass block second.

    Hope this helps lay the ground work for the differences in grades that you and I will both have. Doesn't mean either of us are right or wrong, just means we look at the scheme a bit differently is all.
    Thanks for the in-depth response. You added a lot of detail I was afraid to go into.

    I think one philosophical difference we may have is that you see the Vikings WCO as conforming to "what it has shown itself to be in the past" and I see it as "what it can be in the future". I may be wrong about that.

    That is probably a personal character trait of my own when looking at an offense. I always look for how the offense can diversify whithin the scheme they run and add quality players at the same time. The more quality flexibility the offense has, the more the defense has to prepare and the more options the coaches have on game day.

    Thats probably why I lean more towards a "second pass catching TE" and a FB/RB that is a good receiver out of the backfield. More weapons, more match-up issues, more difficult for defenses to prepare. Its that extra "dimension" or two, that you add each year that keeps the defenses hopping.

    Can't wait to see your player responses.
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  7. #7
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    Using your format, your grade first, my grade second. Discussion point follows.
    QB
    BF- A - A - Only issue I have with the Noodle I relate to his mobility. I believe our QB should be able to move around a bit better than his legs do now and I think he can't exploit the deep ball the way it should be exploited.

    I know that last comment will get everyone all in a tizzy, but if we look at this from a "What happened last year" perspective, we still saw teams crowding the line alot. In fact the 8/9 in the box thing didn't lessen, it got worse.

    Couple that with a drastic decrease in our "Deep Guys" yards per catch and I think anyone (other than the Noodle Crotch Sniffers) would have to agree that there might just be a bit of validity to that.
    TJ- B - C+I know I have been signing TJ's praises of late, however, I still see issues with the timing and anticipation with his recievers. When I see him out there with the 1's doing it day in and day out I will raise his grade. For now, a C+ it is.
    SR- C+ - DI can live with a C+ but I don't want to grade him the same as TJ, mostly cause TJ beat him out last year. Truth of the matter for me is that I haven't really seen him run this scheme enough to warrant anything higher.

    RB:
    AP- B - B+
    This is were we are gonna start to differ alot. I actually think AD is better fit for this scheme mostly because I like how he is a runner first. If he takes the next step and can be a well rounded back (run and pass) then I will jump him higher, mostly because of how predictable we are now with him in there.
    AY- C I can live with a C. To early to tell how he fits.
    IJ- B- - C-I can live with a B- but I am knocking him down a bit mostly because of were he graded out last year. To early to tell how he fits.

    DR- B-He is still a WR right?

    FB:
    NT- D - C+
    Again, I believe the FB's role in this scheme is so negligable that its hard to grade. For what he is called to do, I feel his grade should be a bit higher.

    Truth of the matter is, for me, I don't see why we even carry a FB in this scheme. They should just do away with the position and carry an extra RB, WR or even DLmen.

    WR:
    SR- A - A
    Agree. Cat is the perfect reciever for this scheme. Big, physical, can play outside, inside, can shield the ball from the defender. What is even more scary is that he is still gonna get better over the next 2 or 3 years.
    BB- C+ - B-I think BB is a good fit for the scheme. He is the outside threat if needed (he averaged 20+ yds per catch with Gus throwing to him) and showed last year that he can go over the middle in traffic for the 3 and 5 step drop stuff. Only knock I have on the cat is his ability to stay healthy.
    PH- A - B+I knocked him down a bit. Not cause he doesn't fit the scheme, but rather he still has some room to grow. If one were to go with the standard "3 years to develop" montra, one would start to drool all over the place with respect to what PH and El Syd are gonna do to secondaries for alot of years.
    GL- C+ - No gradeDidn't see enough of him to grade him out. My guess, he makes the team this year, not as a pass catcher but for his tenacity on ST's. Dude was all over the place last year.
    JJ- D ADD DR - No gradeHaven't seen enough of them to grade them out.

    TE:
    VS- A- - A+
    I absolutely love this cat. Have since we signed him. I love that he can block as well as catch which doesn't tip our hand with respect to what play is called out of our base offensive set.
    JK- C+ - B+I grade Sauce out a bit higher because of what he brings with respect to the run game. Mix in that he can also make a catch if called upon and I think he is a good fit.
    JD- D+ - C+ Same thing with Dugan as there is with Sauce. I think he is a fine complimentary player that can run out there and take a spot on the field and the defense doesn't know if he is in there for a run play or a pass.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #8
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Thanks for the in-depth response. You added a lot of detail I was afraid to go into.

    I think one philosophical difference we may have is that you see the Vikings WCO as conforming to "what it has shown itself to be in the past" and I see it as "what it can be in the future". I may be wrong about that.

    That is probably a personal character trait of my own when looking at an offense. I always look for how the offense can diversify whithin the scheme they run and add quality players at the same time. The more quality flexibility the offense has, the more the defense has to prepare and the more options the coaches have on game day.

    Thats probably why I lean more towards a "second pass catching TE" and a FB/RB that is a good receiver out of the backfield. More weapons, more match-up issues, more difficult for defenses to prepare. Its that extra "dimension" or two, that you add each year that keeps the defenses hopping.

    Can't wait to see your player responses.
    Couple of things. Never be afraid to go into detail. We bullshit around alot on here, however, there are alot of good posters on here who can/will go into detail if the thread is one like this that warrants it.

    As to were we differ. I don't think we differ that much as I look at it with respect to what it can be as well.

    For us, its easy cause the history isn't that long, but if we go back in history and look at how this team was built one will see that the staff focused on running and stopping the run first. For the context of this thread I will ignore the defensive side of the house and just focus on what they did in the first year:

    2006
    a. Implemented a ZB scheme.
    b. Got the best G in the league.
    c. Added a 1,000 yard back.

    For me, in its simplest of forms, that highlights what this staff believes a team must do to win.

    Then and only then did they really start to look at the passing game.

    Don't get me wrong, I think one of the reasons they put so much emphasis on the running game was because it was the easiest to fix. Over time they started to add pieces (WR's, OLmen) that could help with the passing game with the ultimate goal (future of which you speak) of being a offense that can exploit what the defense can't stop all the while doing it predominantly out of thier base offensive set.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #9
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Thanks for the in-depth response. You added a lot of detail I was afraid to go into.

    I think one philosophical difference we may have is that you see the Vikings WCO as conforming to "what it has shown itself to be in the past" and I see it as "what it can be in the future". I may be wrong about that.

    That is probably a personal character trait of my own when looking at an offense. I always look for how the offense can diversify whithin the scheme they run and add quality players at the same time. The more quality flexibility the offense has, the more the defense has to prepare and the more options the coaches have on game day.

    Thats probably why I lean more towards a "second pass catching TE" and a FB/RB that is a good receiver out of the backfield. More weapons, more match-up issues, more difficult for defenses to prepare. Its that extra "dimension" or two, that you add each year that keeps the defenses hopping.

    Can't wait to see your player responses.
    Couple of things. Never be afraid to go into detail. We bullshit around alot on here, however, there are alot of good posters on here who can/will go into detail if the thread is one like this that warrants it.

    As to were we differ. I don't think we differ that much as I look at it with respect to what it can be as well.

    For us, its easy cause the history isn't that long, but if we go back in history and look at how this team was built one will see that the staff focused on running and stopping the run first. For the context of this thread I will ignore the defensive side of the house and just focus on what they did in the first year:

    2006
    a. Implemented a ZB scheme.
    b. Got the best G in the league.
    c. Added a 1,000 yard back.

    For me, in its simplest of forms, that highlights what this staff believes a team must do to win.

    Then and only then did they really start to look at the passing game.

    Don't get me wrong, I think one of the reasons they put so much emphasis on the running game was because it was the easiest to fix. Over time they started to add pieces (WR's, OLmen) that could help with the passing game with the ultimate goal (future of which you speak) of being a offense that can exploit what the defense can't stop all the while doing it predominantly out of thier base offensive set.
    We pretty much see it the same way then...I am just looking for "the next differnt step". In fact, we may be a little closer than you think. Instead of going after a small, quick RB who can catch pases out of the backfield, I would prefer to have a credible inside runner who is adept at running routes and catching passes. It still emphasizes the running game, but, allows for more opportunities to create a mismatch in personnel.

    Looking at another downfield pass catching TE and/or a FB with speed/pass catching ability would round out the line-up even more.

    Maybe I am trying to squeeze too much out of the WCO scheme, but, it is nice that it can still be squeezed some more.

    As far as the average yd/catch going down last year, I contribute most of that to Berrians hamstrings and Favres slow start. I think they performed very well after they got going and should do even better if Berrian returns to form.

    Favre's arm isn't what it was when he was a spry young 35 year old QB, but he still has plenty of gas up to the 35 to 45 yard range.
    None

  10. #10
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:How do our players match-up with WCO philosophy?

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    We pretty much see it the same way then...I am just looking for "the next differnt step". In fact, we may be a little closer than you think. Instead of going after a small, quick RB who can catch pases out of the backfield, I would prefer to have a credible inside runner who is adept at running routes and catching passes. It still emphasizes the running game, but, allows for more opportunities to create a mismatch in personnel.
    I think we want the same in a RB, you just like a cat I think is to injury prone.

    Change Hardesty's scouting report so that it shows alot of starts instead of injuries/not playing and we have our guy.

    Looking at another downfield pass catching TE and/or a FB with speed/pass catching ability would round out the line-up even more.
    Forget FB. Only 1 coming out this year that is even close to being draftable. Again, they are a dying breed.

    As to TE. Add another "inline" (Greshem/Grownkowski/Graham) guy who can block as well as he can run a route and I agree. Bring in one of the "Hybrid Recieve only" options and I don't agree.

    Maybe I am trying to squeeze too much out of the WCO scheme, but, it is nice that it can still be squeezed some more.
    Nope, squeeze away. The flexibility and unpredictability from your base, whether that be a 2 TE/2 WR/1 RB set or a 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB set, is what makes the scheme so great.

    As far as the average yd/catch going down last year, I contribute most of that to Berrians hamstrings and Favres slow start. I think they performed very well after they got going and should do even better if Berrian returns to form.

    Favre's arm isn't what it was when he was a spry young 35 year old QB, but he still has plenty of gas up to the 35 to 45 yard range.
    The did perform well, however, it was after BB's hammy healed and they started to use him on the shorter routes.

    As to the Noodle, comeon, humor me. Atleast side with me on one thing. The dudes arm is a NOOOOOOOODDDDDDDLLLLLE.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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