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  1. #21
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    Re: Gruden QB camp: Andy Dalton

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094638
    Quote Originally Posted by "tastywaves" #1094636
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    One of the local sports writers made a bold prediction this morning that Dalton would be taken before Newton. Now I doubt that will happen, but he may go higher than some think.

    Another report says he won't go early because he has red hair, and their has never been a good red headed QB in the NFL
    I have Dalton and Ponder listed low because of their deliveries (Dalton half arms it) (Ponder Lazy slow release) as not good fits for our scheme.

    Better suited for a team that goes deep/vertical alot but if you are looking for quick release, get it to the slant fast, they aren't the right guy.

    I actually have Purple Floyds guy, Stanzi, ranked as better fits above these two.
    Haven't seen much of Dalton's play, so the following BS is from what I've read.

    I thought the scouting reports on the guy were fairly good for a WCO team. That is quick release with good accuracy at 15 yards and in. They say he does have a 3/4 release point (similar to Rivers) and at 6-2, could be an issue. Note, it's not his throwing motion that is criticized, but the point at which he releases the ball. His decision making and winning history are strong positives. His deep throws seem to be the most suspect and where he gets critiqued on the hardest.

    He does have very red hair though.
    Nope, not bull, atleast thats the same I've been tracking, minus the good fit on a WCO like we run.

    Rivers is on a more "Vertical" version of the WCO, kindof like the Falcons. That might sound trivial, but if you look at were the QB gets rid of the ball (from Center) a 3/5 step is alot closer to the line than a 5/7 step drop.

    A side arm delivery will get batted alot on the 3 step drop, not as much, but still some on the 5 and very little on the 7 step drop.

    Now if the intent, from Mugrove, is to go a bit more verticle and employ more 5 and 7 step drops, Dalton would be OK as his release is still faster than Ponders. But if they are going to focus on the run and use the 3/5 step drop like we have in the past, he isn't a good fit, atleast not unless they can fix his delivery.
    This guy disagrees:

    Andy Dalton Scouting Report

    ANALYSIS

    Best fit: First off the team must be a West coast system. That knocks off quite a few teams, but most teams implementing a WCO in the league today are in need of a QB. Those teams include San Francisco, Minnesota, Seattle, and Washington.

    While all of the previously mentioned franchises likely have a strong interest, as will many other teams looking for serviceable backups, I see the Minnesota Vikings as being the best fit for Andy Dalton schematically and in accordance with the player personnel.

    In the best season of Brett Favre's career (statistically), Favre was most effective in throwing the short dump-off or screen routes, completing more passes (126) in attempts from 1-10 yards than any other area on the field. From the film I've seen, Dalton as afore mentioned, was equally effective in the short passing game at TCU. In that 2009 season, the Vikings were a stone's throw from making the NFL's Super Bowl; the reason for such a dramatic dropout in 2010 obviously stems from the lethargic play of Brett Favre. After throwing for 14 TDs and zero picks in attempts 11-20 yards in 2009, Favre threw 4 TDs to 8 interceptions in the same attempt range. Moreover, Favre's TD/INT ratio in 2009 for attempts 1-10 yards was 10/2, while in 2010 the ratio fell to a lousy 5/4.

    By bringing in Dalton, the Vikings can actually rebuild the state of the franchise from within. They can wait until round 2, trade down right in front of Seattle, and get Dalton for a much lower price than signing another veteran quarterback or trading for Kevin Kolb once a CBA is met. Dalton has less of the major concerns that the top QBs of this class have, and would be a much safer pick in rounds 2 or 3 depending on the vibe around the league. Dalton teamed with Percy Harvin in the quick hitting passing attack, and Adrian Peterson pounding the running game could bring some life back to a dying Minnesota Vikings offense. In round 1 the Vikings can address glaring needs on defense, draft Dalton on day 2, and possibly draft Dalton's go to man Jeremy Kerley late on day 3.
    Excellent find my friend. The ones I'm going off of....

    Weaknesses
    Has played in a spread offense and must show that he can go through progression reads and not always run when his initial reads aren't there. His height is adequate, but his three-quarter delivery is a concern. Can be unsettled by pressure in the pocket with happy feet. Accuracy on the deep throws are inconsistent.
    CDS.com

    Played in a system that called for a lot of short, easy passes and wasn't asked to make a lot of NFL-type throws or reads --- Best fit might come in a West Coast offense --- May not have all of the physical tools that you look for but compensates with elite intangibles --- A game manager who is much better college player than pro prospect --- Most likely profiles as a backup at the next level.
    Draft Countdown

    Kipers grade on him.
    Hes a West Coast-offense quarterback who can move and throw on the run accurately, Kiper said. Hes only 6-2 with a three-quarters delivery. Hes had some passes batted down. But hes smart, hes a winner, hes accurate and he can throw on the run. To me thats why hes going to go late first, early second round and be the best of that next group.
    Bengals fan site I visit
    Once again, you confuse me my friend. You tell me in your previous post that Dalton is not a good fit for the WCO, then you reference three sources that say he is best suited for a WCO.
    Quite the contrary..........I never said he wasn't suited for a WCO, I said he wasn't suited for the one we run, .....

    Now if the intent, from Mugrove, is to go a bit more verticle and employ more 5 and 7 step drops, Dalton would be OK as his release is still faster than Ponders. But if they are going to focus on the run and use the 3/5 step drop like we have in the past, he isn't a good fit, atleast not unless they can fix his delivery.
    ......if we are going to start going into more deep routes (and the associated deep drops as I discussed originally) then he is a fit.

    Again, for clarification, I think he will struggle in our scheme, with those same "Easy" throws because he will be coming out from under Center as he will be closer to the line with the shorter drops than when he was standing back in the shotgun.

    My apologies for not being clearer.
    I understand your concern on the short drops as he doesn't have a lot of experience in lining up under center. Unfortunately, a problem with most college QB's. This will be something he will have to learn, but evidence to date doesn't show he struggles with it, just that his experience is fairly limited. Outside of that, he appears to be one of the better matches for our offense in this draft.

    My take on him for MN is that if we continue to employ a fairly conservative WCO style of play predicated on shorter passes and short term running the ball more, he might actually be one of the better matches for us in this draft. I am intrigued more with Locker, but I'm always a sucker for athleticism that quite often backfires on me. #12 seems a bit early for Locker, not sure the pressure that goes along with it is a winning formula.

    If the Vikings take Dalton in the second round I wouldn't be upset or surprised. However, I would also expect a veteran signed as the projected starter if that is the case.

  2. #22
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    Re: Gruden QB camp: Andy Dalton

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094644
    As a result, my goal was to make the best pick for each NFC North team regardless of the slot I was drafting in. It left me taking a leap from conventional wisdom for one team but also put me in position to provide the other three teams what would seem to be near-ideal scenarios. My picks, which we made last week, and explanations are below. Some picks took longer to justify than others:
    12. Minnesota Vikings
    My pick: TCU quarterback Andy Dalton
    Simmer down: About five minutes after filing my pick, a colleague called and (jokingly, I think) asked how I felt about taking a third-round player with the No. 12 overall pick. That sentiment helps illustrate my first reason for taking any quarterback, let alone Dalton, at this spot.

    The quarterback position has grown to the point where it can't be valued along the same lines as other positions. I don't have an exact formula for the comparison. But to me, having merely an above-average quarterback is more important than having a 10-sack man at defensive end or a 10-year fixture at left tackle. Without competent quarterback play, those 10 sacks and that stability on the line can carry a team only so far.
    I'm not necessarily suggesting that Dalton, or any of the other quarterbacks who remained after Auburn's Cam Newton and Missouri's Blaine Gabbert left the board, is the 12th-best player in the draft. I'm saying you throw out conventional rankings when you're in a situation like the Vikings' and recognize that getting a long-term starter at quarterback is worth the No. 12 overall pick.

    Trading down was not an option, and I'm not sure I would have done it if it were. The Vikings aren't the only team in this situation, and chances are a team they partner with to trade down will be in search of a quarterback themselves. The Vikings' lack of a third-round pick leaves them with limited value to send in return, and their chances of even a second-tier prospect being available with their second-round pick at No. 43 overall is limited at best.
    We've discussed the accuracy issues of Washington's Jake Locker before. Put it this way: If he improves substantially at the NFL level, he'll be the exception to the rule. Arkansas' Ryan Mallett doesn't strike me as leader material. And in comparison to Florida State's Christian Ponder and Nevada's Colin Kaepernick, I thought Dalton had the best chance to excel in an offensive system that will be similar to what the Atlanta Falcons installed with rookie quarterback Matt Ryan in 2008.
    Blog Network mock: Hello, Andy Dalton
    I almost put the mock in the "Mocks I find interesting" thread but I was laughing so hard I couldn't do anything but put it in this one.

    On a side note, he does make some good points about how and when QB's should be ranked compared to other positions. My guess, alot of the QB's are going to go alot higher than other players most have rated higher than they are.

    By the by.....This kindof dovetails into the WCO offense discussion about his fitting or not.

    I thought Dalton had the best chance to excel in an offensive system that will be similar to what the Atlanta Falcons installed with rookie quarterback Matt Ryan in 2008.
    Depends on what version of the WCO we run.
    Atlanta (more vertical) yes, MN (Dink Dunk) no.
    I disagree with your last line and think it is better off reversed. Dalton at #12 is too high, but that is only coming from my very uninformed mind.

    As bad as I want to see a good QB on this team, I do not believe in reaching for a position. Follow your big board and take BPA...that is after all what the team "big board" is about right? If Dalton is rated as the BPA at #12 so be it...

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