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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "seaniemck7" wrote:
    A. Fred Davis won't be there in the 2nd round
    B. While Davis MIGHT be an upgrade at TE from what we have on our roster, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that our personel people will not invest the kind of pick necessary to get him into a position where we have a vet (Sauce), youth (Mills), depth/versatility (Dugan) and upside (Shank) already on the roster.
    Another man speaking sense.

    Great points my VA friend.
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  2. #22
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    It all comes back to investment.

    The Vikes have alot already invested in talent at the TE position.
    Just because people don't want to grasp the concept that our TE's were used exclusively for blocking last year, we will continue to hear how all of them suck and should be pooh canned.

    Long story short, my sisters, brothers friend is the the trash emptier at Winter Park and he told my Uncles, lawn care giver that the OL will block better next year and allow for the TE's to be used in the passing scheme as well.
    I like Kleinsasser a lot, but he has been around long enough that everyone knows his strengths lie in blocking and pass protection, not receiving.
    The scheme last year isn't what makes people think that.
    As far as Shank, his contract is large, but no prohibitively so.
    We had more invested in Chester Taylor last year, yet we still picked up AD.

    Fred Davis is one of the premier TEs in a draft that will not feature many good TEs.
    He is a converted WR who put on weight as his body matures, but kept his speed.
    He has good hands, good size, and good speed.
    If he is available in the second round, the Vikings would be absolutely stupid to pass on him, regardless of the investment made in Shank. Hell, Shank's contract is large, but the cap hit for cutting him would be relatively minor to a team that is substantially under the cap.

    I honestly put Davis in my list of five players I wouldn't mind seeing the Viking take with the #17 pick.
    He is the fifth out of five, simply because 17 is a little high for him, but he is still there...
    I hear ya and am not questioning his talent.
    The argument really goes back to what cost do you take him?

    I know you (some people can't grasp this concept) know that if they take someone that high, someone on the roster leaves and it usually in the group that you took the guy in (i.e. TE).

    Who do you let go?

    83 Jeff Dugan TE 26 6-4 258 4 Maryland
    40 Jim Kleinsasser TE 30 6-3 272 9 North Dakota
    45 Garrett Mills TE 24 6-1 235 2 Tulsa
    81 Visanthe Shiancoe TE 27 6-4 250 5 Morgan State

    Klieny - Best blocker.
    Key for a run oriented offense such as ours. Not a true weapon.
    Shank - Another good blocker.
    Probably better suited to catch passes if they ever pass to him. Probably best passing weapon with respect to TE position.
    Dugan - Depends on what roster/depth chart you look at.
    He is either a FB or TE.
    Again a nice blocker that can catch but not a true weapon.
    Mills - A bit small to be a true blocking/pass catching TE. Will only come in on obvious passing downs. Could/should be move to FB.

    The insane will say get rid of Shank cause he makes to much and didn't produce like Moss last year but again, anyone that knows squat about football knows that a) it isn't cost feasible to let him go, and b) he wasn't (like all our TE's) used in the passing scheme last year.

    Only a staff of imbeciles would risk drafting a guy that high who wouldn't make the team cause then you would have to try to get him on your practice squad.
    Once you try that he is gone, kapoooot, waste of pick.

    Again, I am pretty confidnet that they will address a position of higher need with first, second and third round picks and it won't be TE.
    Hell I am almost convinced they won't take a DE or a WR either because of investment.

    Long story short, TE problem was addressed last year (Shank/Mills), DE will be addressed via FA (if they do anything at all), WR will be addressed via FA and non "Sexy" positions will be addressed via the draft this year.
    Honestly, I would let Mills go, and move Dugan over to FB permanently.
    Obviously if Davis was drafted he would make the team, not the practice squad.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat out Shank in training camp.
    I am not convinced of Shank's ability to catch the ball yet - when we was used in passing situations he could not shake LBs, and had a couple of key drops/fumbles.
    Also, the Sauce is getting up there in years and will not be around much longer.
    TE is as much of an upcoming need as S or DT is IMHO.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  3. #23
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    I say get rid of the guy who's isn't in the top 4 at the position... why keep shank who can't catch.. or keep him and cut dugan... Davis better than all of them, so why not upgrade that position.. we didnt need a RB last year but picked him with the first pick#7... look how he panned out...
    You do realize that we already carry more TE's than an average staff don't you?
    The reason for that isn't cause we are a pass happy team.
    It is because we beat TE/FB and RB's to death with all the runs.

    Which lead me to believe that we did need a RB last year.
    When I put my mock draft out last year everyone Tedd Ginn crotch sniffer in the world was on my jiggly butt for taking/projecting a RB instead of WR for us.
    In that/those threads I pulled the stats for the team when CT went down last year and for 5 games no one stepped up.

    we need passing threats.. and whether that comes WR / TE or both.. it needs to be addressed... hell, we could address DE and WR in FA and address as you say non-sexxy picks via the draft.. this would probably include TE... (whether 1st or 2nd or 3rd)...
    We do need passing threats but most people want more passing threats cause they want to relive the days of Moss, Carter, and Reed.


    We will never see those days again.
    We will be a very boring, grind it out kindof team for years to come.
    Its the way we are built.
    Again, look at how many TE/FB's we carry on this team.


    i'm not necessarily saying we should go TE with one of the first two picks.. i'm just saying it would be a bad thing or stupid to do so either.. unlike you who wants to go S or DT in the first... that's kinda silly if you ask me...
    I have been called silly before
    ;D, but seriously when a team gets to the point were they are drafting for the future and not so much instant impact, you will see them take the BPA in the draft that will address upcoming holes in the roster.

    S is a immediate need.
    DT is a upcoming need (Phat Pat will slowly decline next year and the year after).
    I have them taking a S to fill a starter role and a DT to fill an eventual starter role of the future.
    If you look close, I also have them addressing FB pretty high as well for the same reason.
    Again, I attribute this to the fact that most of our positional starters are set.

    the fact is Davis is better than all of the weapons we have at TE.. u'd rather have Mills than Davis.. that's crazy... mills could go back to the P-squad or dugan can as well since he's pretty much a SASS clone.. or cut him...
    I don't doubt his talent.
    If fact from what I see of the scouting reports on him I really like his future in the NFL but I wouldn't pick him because of pressing needs else were.
    that's pretty much the same point.. addressing upcoming needs in the roster.. he's an upgrade..

    with that said... i'm not for reliving the days of moss and carter.. that's not why i'd take a TE.. but to open up the running game...Davis would do that...

    i'm not a pass happy fan.. i believe in the run... but with our run game we need players to open that up...

    i also think we carry more TE's than most people bc of our lack of talent in other positions i.e. WR...

    and let me be clear.. i'm not for drafting him at 17... i wouldn't be mad, but we do have other needs.. i'd like to see us trade down and possibly still get him late in the first and pick up an extra 2nd or 3rd rounder..

    all i'm saying is i can see the logic behind taking him in the first.. and wouldn't be upset with the pick..

    we do have more pressing needs which i do think will be addressed, mostly in FA.. but to your point.. i think we should re-sign spencer Johnson before we spend a high pick on a DT.. additionally, i think we should re-sign tank or Doss for depth and draft a safety in the 2nd or 3rd...

    overall, though... i just want the best player available regardless of position in the draft... and then i'd be happy... if that's davis, or a DT or a Safety or a corner.. then sobeit.. and if shank can learn to concentrate and catch the ball then i'd be back on the bandwagon...


  4. #24
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    It all comes back to investment.

    The Vikes have alot already invested in talent at the TE position.
    Just because people don't want to grasp the concept that our TE's were used exclusively for blocking last year, we will continue to hear how all of them suck and should be pooh canned.

    Long story short, my sisters, brothers friend is the the trash emptier at Winter Park and he told my Uncles, lawn care giver that the OL will block better next year and allow for the TE's to be used in the passing scheme as well.
    I like Kleinsasser a lot, but he has been around long enough that everyone knows his strengths lie in blocking and pass protection, not receiving.
    The scheme last year isn't what makes people think that.
    As far as Shank, his contract is large, but no prohibitively so.
    We had more invested in Chester Taylor last year, yet we still picked up AD.

    Fred Davis is one of the premier TEs in a draft that will not feature many good TEs.
    He is a converted WR who put on weight as his body matures, but kept his speed.
    He has good hands, good size, and good speed.
    If he is available in the second round, the Vikings would be absolutely stupid to pass on him, regardless of the investment made in Shank. Hell, Shank's contract is large, but the cap hit for cutting him would be relatively minor to a team that is substantially under the cap.

    I honestly put Davis in my list of five players I wouldn't mind seeing the Viking take with the #17 pick.
    He is the fifth out of five, simply because 17 is a little high for him, but he is still there...
    I hear ya and am not questioning his talent.
    The argument really goes back to what cost do you take him?

    I know you (some people can't grasp this concept) know that if they take someone that high, someone on the roster leaves and it usually in the group that you took the guy in (i.e. TE).

    Who do you let go?

    83 Jeff Dugan TE 26 6-4 258 4 Maryland
    40 Jim Kleinsasser TE 30 6-3 272 9 North Dakota
    45 Garrett Mills TE 24 6-1 235 2 Tulsa
    81 Visanthe Shiancoe TE 27 6-4 250 5 Morgan State

    Klieny - Best blocker.
    Key for a run oriented offense such as ours. Not a true weapon.
    Shank - Another good blocker.
    Probably better suited to catch passes if they ever pass to him. Probably best passing weapon with respect to TE position.
    Dugan - Depends on what roster/depth chart you look at.
    He is either a FB or TE.
    Again a nice blocker that can catch but not a true weapon.
    Mills - A bit small to be a true blocking/pass catching TE. Will only come in on obvious passing downs. Could/should be move to FB.

    The insane will say get rid of Shank cause he makes to much and didn't produce like Moss last year but again, anyone that knows squat about football knows that a) it isn't cost feasible to let him go, and b) he wasn't (like all our TE's) used in the passing scheme last year.

    Only a staff of imbeciles would risk drafting a guy that high who wouldn't make the team cause then you would have to try to get him on your practice squad.
    Once you try that he is gone, kapoooot, waste of pick.

    Again, I am pretty confidnet that they will address a position of higher need with first, second and third round picks and it won't be TE.
    Hell I am almost convinced they won't take a DE or a WR either because of investment.

    Long story short, TE problem was addressed last year (Shank/Mills), DE will be addressed via FA (if they do anything at all), WR will be addressed via FA and non "Sexy" positions will be addressed via the draft this year.
    Honestly, I would let Mills go, and move Dugan over to FB permanently.
    Obviously if Davis was drafted he would make the team, not the practice squad.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat out Shank in training camp.
    I am not convinced of Shank's ability to catch the ball yet - when we was used in passing situations he could not shake LBs, and had a couple of key drops/fumbles.
    Also, the Sauce is getting up there in years and will not be around much longer.
    TE is as much of an upcoming need as S or DT is IMHO.
    AND THE TRUUUUTH!!!!! SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!! (-quote from liar liar)...

    Thank you!!!... finally someone making sense..

  5. #25
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Honestly, I would let Mills go, and move Dugan over to FB permanently.
    Obviously if Davis was drafted he would make the team, not the practice squad.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat out Shank in training camp.
    I am not convinced of Shank's ability to catch the ball yet - when we was used in passing situations he could not shake LBs, and had a couple of key drops/fumbles.
    Also, the Sauce is getting up there in years and will not be around much longer.
    TE is as much of an upcoming need as S or DT is IMHO.
    Good point on Klieny and his age.


    Dugan would be the logical choice to be cut if you asked me and then move Mills to FB as I still say he is to small for a TE.


    Of course I didn't get to see him much last year, I am concerned over his blocking abilities.
    Like it or not, that is the primary responsibility of our TE's in this scheme.

    Again, not questioning the kids talent, just the need right now on a "Run First, Run Second" "think about passing" type of team.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #26
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Honestly, I would let Mills go, and move Dugan over to FB permanently.
    Obviously if Davis was drafted he would make the team, not the practice squad.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat out Shank in training camp.
    I am not convinced of Shank's ability to catch the ball yet - when we was used in passing situations he could not shake LBs, and had a couple of key drops/fumbles.
    Also, the Sauce is getting up there in years and will not be around much longer.
    TE is as much of an upcoming need as S or DT is IMHO.
    Good point on Klieny and his age.


    Dugan would be the logical choice to be cut if you asked me and then move Mills to FB as I still say he is to small for a TE.


    Of course I didn't get to see him much last year, I am concerned over his blocking abilities.
    Like it or not, that is the primary responsibility of our TE's in this scheme.

    Again, not questioning the kids talent, just the need right now on a "Run First, Run Second" "think about passing" type of team.
    I see your point on Mills and his size.
    Honestly, I don't view either as essential to the team...
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  7. #27
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    Some other prospects at TE.

    Travis Beckum (Projected as a undrafted FA)
    http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/p...ospect_ID=1248

    John Carlson (Projected as a undrafted FA)
    http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/p...ospect_ID=1273

    Craig Stevens. (4th round projection)
    http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/p...ospect_ID=1238

    http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2008_nfl_...alue_board.htm

    Again, these guys are out there and you don't need to use a 2nd round pick (Probably a first) to get them.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #28
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Honestly, I would let Mills go, and move Dugan over to FB permanently.
    Obviously if Davis was drafted he would make the team, not the practice squad.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat out Shank in training camp.
    I am not convinced of Shank's ability to catch the ball yet - when we was used in passing situations he could not shake LBs, and had a couple of key drops/fumbles.
    Also, the Sauce is getting up there in years and will not be around much longer.
    TE is as much of an upcoming need as S or DT is IMHO.
    Good point on Klieny and his age.


    Dugan would be the logical choice to be cut if you asked me and then move Mills to FB as I still say he is to small for a TE.


    Of course I didn't get to see him much last year, I am concerned over his blocking abilities.
    Like it or not, that is the primary responsibility of our TE's in this scheme.

    Again, not questioning the kids talent, just the need right now on a "Run First, Run Second" "think about passing" type of team.
    I see your point on Mills and his size.
    Honestly, I don't view either as essential to the team...
    How can you say Mills (6'1") is too small, and at the same time want Fred Davis (6'2")? I really don't understand why everyone likes Davis so much, he's small, and he doesn't have any gamebreaking speed to make up for it. Schiancoe is going to be around next year, and should show a lot of improvement, especially if they actually start throwing him the ball. What we really need at the TE position is someone to replace Kleinsasser, since he is getting old.

    My favorite TE from this draft is Brad Cottam from Tennessee. He is 6'7" and 271 pounds, he is just a monster. He is also probably the best blocker out of all TEs this year. And in addition to his size, his 40 time is projected to be 4.68, which is exactly the same as Fred Davis. Getting someone like him in the 3rd or 4th round would make much more sense (in my mind) then using a first day pick when we have more pressing needs (DE, WR, S).

  9. #29
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "aaeyers" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Honestly, I would let Mills go, and move Dugan over to FB permanently.
    Obviously if Davis was drafted he would make the team, not the practice squad.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat out Shank in training camp.
    I am not convinced of Shank's ability to catch the ball yet - when we was used in passing situations he could not shake LBs, and had a couple of key drops/fumbles.
    Also, the Sauce is getting up there in years and will not be around much longer.
    TE is as much of an upcoming need as S or DT is IMHO.
    Good point on Klieny and his age.


    Dugan would be the logical choice to be cut if you asked me and then move Mills to FB as I still say he is to small for a TE.


    Of course I didn't get to see him much last year, I am concerned over his blocking abilities.
    Like it or not, that is the primary responsibility of our TE's in this scheme.

    Again, not questioning the kids talent, just the need right now on a "Run First, Run Second" "think about passing" type of team.
    I see your point on Mills and his size.
    Honestly, I don't view either as essential to the team...
    How can you say Mills (6'1") is too small, and at the same time want Fred Davis (6'2")? I really don't understand why everyone likes Davis so much, he's small, and he doesn't have any gamebreaking speed to make up for it. Schiancoe is going to be around next year, and should show a lot of improvement, especially if they actually start throwing him the ball. What we really need at the TE position is someone to replace Kleinsasser, since he is getting old.

    My favorite TE from this draft is Brad Cottam from Tennessee. He is 6'7" and 271 pounds, he is just a monster. He is also probably the best blocker out of all TEs this year. And in addition to his size, his 40 time is projected to be 4.68, which is exactly the same as Fred Davis. Getting someone like him in the 3rd or 4th round would make much more sense (in my mind) then using a first day pick when we have more pressing needs (DE, WR, S).
    I know your not talking to me.
    If you are you read/misunderstood.
    I am about the only one on this page who doesn't want to take him.
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  10. #30
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Fred Davis (2nd Round)

    "aaeyers" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    Honestly, I would let Mills go, and move Dugan over to FB permanently.
    Obviously if Davis was drafted he would make the team, not the practice squad.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see him beat out Shank in training camp.
    I am not convinced of Shank's ability to catch the ball yet - when we was used in passing situations he could not shake LBs, and had a couple of key drops/fumbles.
    Also, the Sauce is getting up there in years and will not be around much longer.
    TE is as much of an upcoming need as S or DT is IMHO.
    Good point on Klieny and his age.


    Dugan would be the logical choice to be cut if you asked me and then move Mills to FB as I still say he is to small for a TE.


    Of course I didn't get to see him much last year, I am concerned over his blocking abilities.
    Like it or not, that is the primary responsibility of our TE's in this scheme.

    Again, not questioning the kids talent, just the need right now on a "Run First, Run Second" "think about passing" type of team.
    I see your point on Mills and his size.
    Honestly, I don't view either as essential to the team...
    How can you say Mills (6'1") is too small, and at the same time want Fred Davis (6'2")? I really don't understand why everyone likes Davis so much, he's small, and he doesn't have any gamebreaking speed to make up for it. Schiancoe is going to be around next year, and should show a lot of improvement, especially if they actually start throwing him the ball. What we really need at the TE position is someone to replace Kleinsasser, since he is getting old.

    My favorite TE from this draft is Brad Cottam from Tennessee. He is 6'7" and 271 pounds, he is just a monster. He is also probably the best blocker out of all TEs this year. And in addition to his size, his 40 time is projected to be 4.68, which is exactly the same as Fred Davis. Getting someone like him in the 3rd or 4th round would make much more sense (in my mind) then using a first day pick when we have more pressing needs (DE, WR, S).
    Well, since Davis is 6' 4" and weighs 250... I would say he is considerable bigger than Mills wouldn't you?
    He is about the same size as Shank... only he can catch the ball. (900 yards receiving last year...)

    And - I am not looking for another blocking TE.
    Obviously we are good with them.
    I am looking for someone who has speed, hands, and blocking ability - that is something we do not have.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

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