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  1. #51
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094696
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094594
    Firstly, worth mentioning, I've never been a fan of drafting OL high this season.

    I DON"T think OT is as big a priority as people think. Upgrading Mac is a luxury, not a necessity. Yes, he's big, slow and gives up a fair number of sacks, but he's still easily in the top-half of the league for LT's.

    Load had a great rookie year, but regressed. Not sure if there's some undisclosed injury, or what the problem is. If he can come back to form, I'll be happy with that. He gets another year.

    Hutch needs a replacement, might be DeGeare, might be someone else. He's only got a couple years left in the tank

    Herrerra has played hurt the past two years, if healthy, I hope he can return to form as well. If not, we need to look at an alternative.

    Sullivan is really the only player that I think NEEDS to be replaced. He's simply not big enough to take on nosetackles. He gets pushed around, and pushed back into the QB. A collapsed pocket is not a good pocket. Hell, when Cook was in there I thought things looked a bit more consistent.

    So I'd be all for drafting a big C/G-type lineman, preferably one who can play both positions. This way, if Sullivan has had some miraculous improvement in skill, he stays and this guy works at RG, competing with Herrera.

    If Herrera comes back completely healthy, then he pushes for the C spot.
    Another fine assesment.

    Only discussion point I see in there is the C discussion.

    For me, the following applies:

    a. None of the C's this year seem to be worth drafting as most of them are just as small as Sully (6'4"/301 lbs) and are projected to be best fits in ZBing schemes.

    # Name Pos School Ht Wt Spd
    #1 Stefen Wisniewski C Penn State 6ft 3.0in 313 5.26
    #2 Kristofer ODowd C USC 6ft 4.1in 304 5.16
    #3 Brandon Fusco C Slippery Rock 6ft 4.1in 300 5.20
    #4 Zane Taylor C Utah 6ft 2.4in 309 5.61
    #5 Jake Kirkpatrick C Texas Christian 6ft 1.7in 300 5.32
    #6 Tim Barnes C Missouri 6ft 3.0in 305 5.20
    #7 Ryan Bartholomew C Syracuse 6ft 1.1in 302 4.97
    #8 Ryan McMahon C Florida State 6ft 3.0in 285 5.10
    #9 Ryan Pugh C Auburn 6ft 4.0in 300 5.15
    #10 Colin Baxter C Arizona 6ft 2.5in 311 5.42

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.

    c. The Herrera idea bares some consideration even though I didn't like what I saw last year. Maybe the scheme change will help him adjust to the role. I think he pulls good enough and has the smarts to make the line adjustments.

    In the end, if you want to upgrade our Center position I think it will have to be done via FA (or as you alude, from the current roster) and not with someone drafted out of this class.
    Herrera at center was horrible. He didn't even play guard very well last year.

    It's late tonight, but I will come back with a post about drafting O-linemen tomarrow that may challenge what some think.

    As far as centers go, maybe you should judge them by different standards than hieght and weight.

    John Sullivan 6'4" 301
    Mike Pouncey 6'5" 303
    Olan Kreutz 6'2" 292
    Matt birk 6'4" 300
    Jeff Saturday 6'2" 295
    Probowlers
    Nick Mangold 6'4" 307
    Kevin Maware 6'4" 289
    Shawn Ohara 6'3" 306
    Ryan Kalil a college guard I wanted us to take, 6'4" 301.
    I do add the link to the scouting staffs projection with respect to what scheme they are best suited to run at the next level.

    Again, most are about the same size and Sully and most are best suited to run the ZB'ng scheme.

    As to your list, what would be even more interesting is to look at all those C'rs and see if they are in a ZB'ng scheme, especially the lighter ones.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #52
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094723
    Was the Vikes O-line deficient due to the scheme, lack of talent, or due to injuries?
    I'm liken were your going with that one. I for one think it was a combo of all 3......

    a. Scheme. Still say our guys struggled with shifting back and forth between the two assignment when an audible/play change was done at the line based on what the QB saw pre-snap.

    b. Talent. I almost want to change that word to experience. All of them are talented, but when you look at the 3rd item, talent doesn't overcome a lack of experience at the next level.

    c. Injuries. There is a reason why they don't shift people around on the OL like they do other positions based on the play. The more an OL plays together, the better they play as a unit. Injuries cause you to loose that consistency.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #53
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094732
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    Hicks > Cook.

    Hicks at least WAS a decent starter in the NFL. Cook was never anything that resembled a tolerable starter.

    Just because he's younger doesn't mean anything. Hicks is better than Cook.
    OK, I won't dispute the "He's better" discussion. I will go down the youth road though.

    You don't think that a younger player is more attractive to teams when they start to look at long term contracts?
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #54
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094736
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094723
    Was the Vikes O-line deficient due to the scheme, lack of talent, or due to injuries?
    I'm liken were your going with that one. I for one think it was a combo of all 3......

    a. Scheme. Still say our guys struggled with shifting back and forth between the two assignment when an audible/play change was done at the line based on what the QB saw pre-snap.

    b. Talent. I almost want to change that word to experience. All of them are talented, but when you look at the 3rd item, talent doesn't overcome a lack of experience at the next level.

    c. Injuries. There is a reason why they don't shift people around on the OL like they do other positions based on the play. The more an OL plays together, the better they play as a unit. Injuries cause you to loose that consistency.
    I have a strong feeling simplification of the scheme will make this line better.
    I also feel this line has enough talent if the tackles would come to work in condition and the interior linemen can remain healthy.

    I have some concerns about Herrera but feel DeGeare is going to be very capable.

    My biggest concern is at center and involves talent and injury concerns.

    I would not use a first day pick on any O-Lineman unless I was looking for a replacement for McKinnie; which won't happen this year.

    But an upgrade at center could likely be found in round 4 and should be given consideration.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
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  5. #55
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094738
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094732
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    Hicks > Cook.

    Hicks at least WAS a decent starter in the NFL. Cook was never anything that resembled a tolerable starter.

    Just because he's younger doesn't mean anything. Hicks is better than Cook.
    OK, I won't dispute the "He's better" discussion. I will go down the youth road though.

    You don't think that a younger player is more attractive to teams when they start to look at long term contracts?
    Yes, but that depends really on if the player in question is a guy you want in the long term. Hicks got more money than he should have gotten, but that's the way the Redskins work. I guarantee you Cook will get nowhere near as much money. And IF he gets a good offer, I'd be more than happy to take the second round pick in exchange for him (we tendered him with a second rounder)

  6. #56
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    I thought that Hicks played well in both backup duty and his starting role with the Vikes. I cannot say the same for Cook. The only time I can recall saying that I was impressed when he played center when Sullivan went down last year. But that was due to the fact that he didnt false start the whole game. Regardless of position that was a big step for Cook.

    There is no way Cook gets even a whiff of a deal close to that of Hicks. Artis was a nasty blocker who gave a great deal of effort every play. I do not see the same with Cook.

    I wouldn't be opposed to keeping him as a backup for the line positions however. If they give him another opportunity at Center and he does well, lets roll with it.

  7. #57
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    Lol. I'm sure he will. And Tavaris Jackson will be starting for the Patriots and Rhys Lloyd will kick the game winning touch back -_-
    I am NOT here to provide good football insight or rational observations. I am an emotional 19 year old Viking fan and I expect you to adjust your expectations from my posts.

  8. #58
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "slavinator" #1094765
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    I thought that Hicks played well in both backup duty and his starting role with the Vikes. I cannot say the same for Cook. The only time I can recall saying that I was impressed when he played center when Sullivan went down last year. But that was due to the fact that he didnt false start the whole game. Regardless of position that was a big step for Cook.

    There is no way Cook gets even a whiff of a deal close to that of Hicks. Artis was a nasty blocker who gave a great deal of effort every play. I do not see the same with Cook.

    I wouldn't be opposed to keeping him as a backup for the line positions however. If they give him another opportunity at Center and he does well, lets roll with it.
    How many times have you seen a center false start?

    I was impressed by cook as an interior lineman because he wasn't injured, didn't get pushed back easily. He doesn't have to be as quick off the ball as a tackle would be in passing situations.

    Remember, we drafted him in the 2nd round, and Sullivan in the 6th. Cook was definitely a better prospect. The coaching staff is what ruined him.

    Sullivan had almost no upside, and is showing it. He's a reliable college center barely getting by as a starter in the NFL.

  9. #59
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    My impression of Hick was that he could play which is quite a bit different than my opinion of Cook.Considering he was an UDFA when he came to Philly I think it is safe to say he developed well considering he was the starting LG on their SB team. To compare Hicks to Cook is a little goofy if you ask me.

  10. #60
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094738
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094732
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    Hicks > Cook.

    Hicks at least WAS a decent starter in the NFL. Cook was never anything that resembled a tolerable starter.

    Just because he's younger doesn't mean anything. Hicks is better than Cook.
    OK, I won't dispute the "He's better" discussion. I will go down the youth road though.

    You don't think that a younger player is more attractive to teams when they start to look at long term contracts?
    Not when they have feet of concrete.

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