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  1. #41
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094696
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094594
    Firstly, worth mentioning, I've never been a fan of drafting OL high this season.

    I DON"T think OT is as big a priority as people think. Upgrading Mac is a luxury, not a necessity. Yes, he's big, slow and gives up a fair number of sacks, but he's still easily in the top-half of the league for LT's.

    Load had a great rookie year, but regressed. Not sure if there's some undisclosed injury, or what the problem is. If he can come back to form, I'll be happy with that. He gets another year.

    Hutch needs a replacement, might be DeGeare, might be someone else. He's only got a couple years left in the tank

    Herrerra has played hurt the past two years, if healthy, I hope he can return to form as well. If not, we need to look at an alternative.

    Sullivan is really the only player that I think NEEDS to be replaced. He's simply not big enough to take on nosetackles. He gets pushed around, and pushed back into the QB. A collapsed pocket is not a good pocket. Hell, when Cook was in there I thought things looked a bit more consistent.

    So I'd be all for drafting a big C/G-type lineman, preferably one who can play both positions. This way, if Sullivan has had some miraculous improvement in skill, he stays and this guy works at RG, competing with Herrera.

    If Herrera comes back completely healthy, then he pushes for the C spot.
    Another fine assesment.

    Only discussion point I see in there is the C discussion.

    For me, the following applies:

    a. None of the C's this year seem to be worth drafting as most of them are just as small as Sully (6'4"/301 lbs) and are projected to be best fits in ZBing schemes.

    # Name Pos School Ht Wt Spd
    #1 Stefen Wisniewski C Penn State 6ft 3.0in 313 5.26
    #2 Kristofer ODowd C USC 6ft 4.1in 304 5.16
    #3 Brandon Fusco C Slippery Rock 6ft 4.1in 300 5.20
    #4 Zane Taylor C Utah 6ft 2.4in 309 5.61
    #5 Jake Kirkpatrick C Texas Christian 6ft 1.7in 300 5.32
    #6 Tim Barnes C Missouri 6ft 3.0in 305 5.20
    #7 Ryan Bartholomew C Syracuse 6ft 1.1in 302 4.97
    #8 Ryan McMahon C Florida State 6ft 3.0in 285 5.10
    #9 Ryan Pugh C Auburn 6ft 4.0in 300 5.15
    #10 Colin Baxter C Arizona 6ft 2.5in 311 5.42

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.

    c. The Herrera idea bares some consideration even though I didn't like what I saw last year. Maybe the scheme change will help him adjust to the role. I think he pulls good enough and has the smarts to make the line adjustments.

    In the end, if you want to upgrade our Center position I think it will have to be done via FA (or as you alude, from the current roster) and not with someone drafted out of this class.
    Herrera at center was horrible. He didn't even play guard very well last year.

    It's late tonight, but I will come back with a post about drafting O-linemen tomarrow that may challenge what some think.

    As far as centers go, maybe you should judge them by different standards than hieght and weight.

    John Sullivan 6'4" 301
    Mike Pouncey 6'5" 303
    Olan Kreutz 6'2" 292
    Matt birk 6'4" 300
    Jeff Saturday 6'2" 295
    Probowlers
    Nick Mangold 6'4" 307
    Kevin Maware 6'4" 289
    Shawn Ohara 6'3" 306
    Ryan Kalil a college guard I wanted us to take, 6'4" 301.
    It isn't that I think Sully is too small to be an NFL C. Mt rationale is we have 2 huge, larger than average NFL Tackles and if we are going to keep them and use them to their potential it would also be good to make sure the rest of the OL is bigger than average, similar to the old Cowboys OL during the SB years of the 90s.

    If we change direction and go with smaller, more agile, more athletic OT's then Sully might be a better fit. I just don't see mixing the twin Towers with a smaller interior is putting us at an advantage when you have Loadhold going against small, speedy guys like Matthews and Sully is matching up with bigger guys like Raji. It seems we are getting put at a disadvantage

  2. #42
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094551
    Quote Originally Posted by "singersp" #1094509
    I've been advocating the need to acquire better OL men every year since 2005 & trashing Childress' offensive blocking scheme that wasn't working consistently & effectively, primarily on passing plays with ineffective pass blockers like McKinnie.
    Bashing the Zone Blocking scheme, primarily on passing plays is why I respond in kind everytime you post something like this........

    The ZB scheme supports the running game, when we pass protected we did a more traditional "Hat on a Hat" / "Man up" scheme.

    Your beef, at least the way I take it is that you don't think we draft OLmen high enough when in fact if you look across the board, our OLmen have all been drafted pretty high and blame it on the players when in fact the ZB scheme has worked pretty well.

    What I don't think has worked is the adjustments between the two schemes especially if they had a run play called coming out of the huddle and switched it to a passing play at the line.


    By the way, were our lineman were drafted at.

    Big Mac - 1rst
    Hutch - 1rst Round
    Sully - 6th Rnd
    Herrera - UDFA
    Load - 2n Round

    By the way, glad to see a post out of you my friend. Your inputs have been missed.
    No, my beef isn't that we don't take them high enough. In fact, I said we don't need to take one in the first, but need to address it in the draft/FA.

    Now you may claim Childress' scheme was working, I disagree. It would work some of the time, but not consistently enough. Either the scheme wasn't working or the coaches trying to teach it, didn't do there job.

    In 5 years they failed to get their players to execute their complicated scheme effectively & consistently, no matter who they threw in there.

    QB's were getting killed & defenders were over the line tackling RB's. AD's yards are a bit deceiving. His long runs tended to skew his average.

    Quite often he was nailed in the backfield for a loss of a yard or two, had no gain or got only a yard or two.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #43
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094696
    It's late tonight, but I will come back with a post about drafting O-linemen tomarrow that may challenge what some think.

    As far as centers go, maybe you should judge them by different standards than hieght and weight.

    John Sullivan 6'4" 301
    Mike Pouncey 6'5" 303
    Olan Kreutz 6'2" 292
    Matt birk 6'4" 300
    Jeff Saturday 6'2" 295
    Probowlers
    Nick Mangold 6'4" 307
    Kevin Maware 6'4" 289
    Shawn Ohara 6'3" 306
    Ryan Kalil a college guard I wanted us to take, 6'4" 301.
    The difference is simple: power.

    I hate to say that a lot of these guys, as good as they are/were, might not get a chance in the NFL if they were 2011 prospects. Today, half the league employs a 3-4 defense with huge 0-1 technique nose tackles. There were probably what, 1 or 2 teams running the 3-4 in the 90s. 5-6 years ago is when it really got popular again. Guys just need to come out bigger and more powerful than ever.

    I'm curious what the listed players above weight's were coming out of college, Pouncey, Sullivan, and Mangold excluded.

    Sullivan was an iffy pick at best. Everything "Negative" in a scouting report I read about him was totally correct. "Maxed out," not powerful enough, may struggle with movement... and now of course, something everyone missed - durability concerns.

  4. #44
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094704
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094696
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094594
    Firstly, worth mentioning, I've never been a fan of drafting OL high this season.

    I DON"T think OT is as big a priority as people think. Upgrading Mac is a luxury, not a necessity. Yes, he's big, slow and gives up a fair number of sacks, but he's still easily in the top-half of the league for LT's.

    Load had a great rookie year, but regressed. Not sure if there's some undisclosed injury, or what the problem is. If he can come back to form, I'll be happy with that. He gets another year.

    Hutch needs a replacement, might be DeGeare, might be someone else. He's only got a couple years left in the tank

    Herrerra has played hurt the past two years, if healthy, I hope he can return to form as well. If not, we need to look at an alternative.

    Sullivan is really the only player that I think NEEDS to be replaced. He's simply not big enough to take on nosetackles. He gets pushed around, and pushed back into the QB. A collapsed pocket is not a good pocket. Hell, when Cook was in there I thought things looked a bit more consistent.

    So I'd be all for drafting a big C/G-type lineman, preferably one who can play both positions. This way, if Sullivan has had some miraculous improvement in skill, he stays and this guy works at RG, competing with Herrera.

    If Herrera comes back completely healthy, then he pushes for the C spot.
    Another fine assesment.

    Only discussion point I see in there is the C discussion.

    For me, the following applies:

    a. None of the C's this year seem to be worth drafting as most of them are just as small as Sully (6'4"/301 lbs) and are projected to be best fits in ZBing schemes.

    # Name Pos School Ht Wt Spd
    #1 Stefen Wisniewski C Penn State 6ft 3.0in 313 5.26
    #2 Kristofer ODowd C USC 6ft 4.1in 304 5.16
    #3 Brandon Fusco C Slippery Rock 6ft 4.1in 300 5.20
    #4 Zane Taylor C Utah 6ft 2.4in 309 5.61
    #5 Jake Kirkpatrick C Texas Christian 6ft 1.7in 300 5.32
    #6 Tim Barnes C Missouri 6ft 3.0in 305 5.20
    #7 Ryan Bartholomew C Syracuse 6ft 1.1in 302 4.97
    #8 Ryan McMahon C Florida State 6ft 3.0in 285 5.10
    #9 Ryan Pugh C Auburn 6ft 4.0in 300 5.15
    #10 Colin Baxter C Arizona 6ft 2.5in 311 5.42

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.

    c. The Herrera idea bares some consideration even though I didn't like what I saw last year. Maybe the scheme change will help him adjust to the role. I think he pulls good enough and has the smarts to make the line adjustments.

    In the end, if you want to upgrade our Center position I think it will have to be done via FA (or as you alude, from the current roster) and not with someone drafted out of this class.
    Herrera at center was horrible. He didn't even play guard very well last year.

    It's late tonight, but I will come back with a post about drafting O-linemen tomarrow that may challenge what some think.

    As far as centers go, maybe you should judge them by different standards than hieght and weight.

    John Sullivan 6'4" 301
    Mike Pouncey 6'5" 303
    Olan Kreutz 6'2" 292
    Matt birk 6'4" 300
    Jeff Saturday 6'2" 295
    Probowlers
    Nick Mangold 6'4" 307
    Kevin Maware 6'4" 289
    Shawn Ohara 6'3" 306
    Ryan Kalil a college guard I wanted us to take, 6'4" 301.
    It isn't that I think Sully is too small to be an NFL C. Mt rationale is we have 2 huge, larger than average NFL Tackles and if we are going to keep them and use them to their potential it would also be good to make sure the rest of the OL is bigger than average, similar to the old Cowboys OL during the SB years of the 90s.

    If we change direction and go with smaller, more agile, more athletic OT's then Sully might be a better fit. I just don't see mixing the twin Towers with a smaller interior is putting us at an advantage when you have Loadhold going against small, speedy guys like Matthews and Sully is matching up with bigger guys like Raji. It seems we are getting put at a disadvantage
    I feel the same way, but about all these centers seem to be close to the same size, including the probowlers.

    If Ryan Cook could learn to count, he could be an intriguing center. He would be back at his old college position, and would certainly be a bit bigger at 6'6" 325 lbs..

    I'm not one to think he is too tall to play center unless you have a shorter than average QB. Pouncey is 6'5", Mangold, Maware, and John Sullivan are all 6'4".

    A few general questions.

    Does the line make the QB, as it would appear in Brady's case?

    Or does the QB make the line, as it would appear in Rodgers case?

    Was the Vikes O-line deficient due to the scheme, lack of talent, or due to injuries?

    Coaching staff has to have a clear answer to the last question in order to draft the appropriate O-Lineman.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  5. #45
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1094721
    Quote Originally Posted by "jargomcfargo" #1094696
    It's late tonight, but I will come back with a post about drafting O-linemen tomarrow that may challenge what some think.

    As far as centers go, maybe you should judge them by different standards than hieght and weight.

    John Sullivan 6'4" 301
    Mike Pouncey 6'5" 303
    Olan Kreutz 6'2" 292
    Matt birk 6'4" 300
    Jeff Saturday 6'2" 295
    Probowlers
    Nick Mangold 6'4" 307
    Kevin Maware 6'4" 289
    Shawn Ohara 6'3" 306
    Ryan Kalil a college guard I wanted us to take, 6'4" 301.
    The difference is simple: power.

    I hate to say that a lot of these guys, as good as they are/were, might not get a chance in the NFL if they were 2011 prospects. Today, half the league employs a 3-4 defense with huge 0-1 technique nose tackles. There were probably what, 1 or 2 teams running the 3-4 in the 90s. 5-6 years ago is when it really got popular again. Guys just need to come out bigger and more powerful than ever.

    I'm curious what the listed players above weight's were coming out of college, Pouncey, Sullivan, and Mangold excluded.

    Sullivan was an iffy pick at best. Everything "Negative" in a scouting report I read about him was totally correct. "Maxed out," not powerful enough, may struggle with movement... and now of course, something everyone missed - durability concerns.
    Power and leverage. Those that once wrestled are often successful because they have instinctive leverage skills.

    I think your assessment of Sullivan is spot on.

    Is it time to upgrade? Makes sense to me.
    “What takes a quarterback to the next level is not arm strength or mobility or any of that stuff. It’s the ability to play on critical downs. Manage third downs, or red zones or four-minute or two-minute situations"
    Dilfer

  6. #46
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1094675
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094642
    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1094640
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094639
    Quote Originally Posted by "Mr Anderson" #1094637
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094594
    Firstly, worth mentioning, I've never been a fan of drafting OL high this season.

    I DON"T think OT is as big a priority as people think. Upgrading Mac is a luxury, not a necessity. Yes, he's big, slow and gives up a fair number of sacks, but he's still easily in the top-half of the league for LT's.

    Load had a great rookie year, but regressed. Not sure if there's some undisclosed injury, or what the problem is. If he can come back to form, I'll be happy with that. He gets another year.

    Hutch needs a replacement, might be DeGeare, might be someone else. He's only got a couple years left in the tank

    Herrerra has played hurt the past two years, if healthy, I hope he can return to form as well. If not, we need to look at an alternative.

    Sullivan is really the only player that I think NEEDS to be replaced. He's simply not big enough to take on nosetackles. He gets pushed around, and pushed back into the QB. A collapsed pocket is not a good pocket. Hell, when Cook was in there I thought things looked a bit more consistent.

    So I'd be all for drafting a big C/G-type lineman, preferably one who can play both positions. This way, if Sullivan has had some miraculous improvement in skill, he stays and this guy works at RG, competing with Herrera.

    If Herrera comes back completely healthy, then he pushes for the C spot.
    Another fine assesment.

    Only discussion point I see in there is the C discussion.

    For me, the following applies:

    a. None of the C's this year seem to be worth drafting as most of them are just as small as Sully (6'4"/301 lbs) and are projected to be best fits in ZBing schemes.

    # Name Pos School Ht Wt Spd
    #1 Stefen Wisniewski C Penn State 6ft 3.0in 313 5.26
    #2 Kristofer ODowd C USC 6ft 4.1in 304 5.16
    #3 Brandon Fusco C Slippery Rock 6ft 4.1in 300 5.20
    #4 Zane Taylor C Utah 6ft 2.4in 309 5.61
    #5 Jake Kirkpatrick C Texas Christian 6ft 1.7in 300 5.32
    #6 Tim Barnes C Missouri 6ft 3.0in 305 5.20
    #7 Ryan Bartholomew C Syracuse 6ft 1.1in 302 4.97
    #8 Ryan McMahon C Florida State 6ft 3.0in 285 5.10
    #9 Ryan Pugh C Auburn 6ft 4.0in 300 5.15
    #10 Colin Baxter C Arizona 6ft 2.5in 311 5.42

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.

    c. The Herrera idea bares some consideration even though I didn't like what I saw last year. Maybe the scheme change will help him adjust to the role. I think he pulls good enough and has the smarts to make the line adjustments.

    In the end, if you want to upgrade our Center position I think it will have to be done via FA (or as you alude, from the current roster) and not with someone drafted out of this class.
    I wish 10/20 yard splits were more accessible. I can't find the info anywhere. I'm a lot more concerned about those numbers, as well as broad and vertical jumps, the short shuttle, and 3 cone drill for linemen. Guys who pair good numbers in those drills with a big body are pretty safe if they have the right mentality.

    Which is why I like Moffitt so much. 6'4" 320, went over 30" in the vertical, 4.5 in the short shuttle, and is just a mean dude on the field. If I were making the picks, there's no way I'd let him slip by in the 4th round. If I saw he had a 10 yard shuttle around 1.8-1.85 and went under 3 in the 20 I'd be willing to bet he's a top pulling guard in the NFL within 4 years.
    Its out there, you just have to dig for it.......Don't see Moffitt on here though. Let me keep digging.

    Look on the right side of this page.

    OL Splits

    On a side note, when I was working my 7 rounder, Austins splits were what made me happy he was there in the second.

    Edit.......

    Moffitt splits included in the chart at the bottom
    That's Ben Moffitt of USF(who appears to be an impressive athlete) not John Moffitt of Wisconsin.
    ........Marrdro can be seen muttering to himself......Mr. A did that on purpose......as he starts searching for the "Other Moffitt" splits :silly: .
    Still digging? :P

    I can't find them anywhere.

    CBS' draft site has previous years splits, bench reps, vert and broad jumps, cone drill, and shuttle... but not for 2011.
    I couldn't find anything either and I got online at home and looked as well.

    My apologies for failing you my friend. I stand by for your chastisement. :laugh:
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #47
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Zeus" #1094688
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094583
    One hell of an assesment my friend. Just one question, Leslie wants to run, Musgrove wants to go vertical a bit more, who wins?
    Flip answer: "The other team."

    True answer: "The guy who actually calls the plays."

    =Z=
    I hear ya, but he is really discussing scheme with me. Will we be a WCO variant that has a 22 sets from their base all the time or will we be more like a Atlanta scheme were they run alot of 10 or 11 sets as their base offense.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #48
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #49
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "PackSux!" #1094695
    I would like to see how our line plays now with our new OC before we go and waste a high draft pick for no reason. Yes the line has some age but nothing to worry about now this season, and I believe we will all see a drastic change for the better.

    Draft the best player on the board that fits a hole of ours and O-Line is not one of them compaired to other positions. Then hope Mallet is available in the second.
    I was with you until Mallet. Truth of the matter is, I wouldn't be to upset if we did land Mallet with our 43rd but would rather have a Stanzi there if Locker is gone.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #50
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    Re: Draft OL in first round!

    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094730
    Quote Originally Posted by "Purple Floyd" #1094694
    Quote Originally Posted by "i_bleed_purple" #1094620
    Quote Originally Posted by "Marrdro" #1094617

    b. I do like the idea of Cook, but he is a FA and I don't think the staff will sign him back, especially if he gets offers higher than what we saw Hicks get.
    Didn't we offer him an RFA tender? I thought that was the case.
    The idea of Cook getting any highball offers is somewhere between slim and none.
    What was your opinion of Hicks? Played all the positions Cook does and was older. He got an offer they didn't want to match. My guess, Cook will get about the same kindof interest, if not a bit higher.
    Hicks > Cook.

    Hicks at least WAS a decent starter in the NFL. Cook was never anything that resembled a tolerable starter.

    Just because he's younger doesn't mean anything. Hicks is better than Cook.

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