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  1. #101
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    You know all of these ppl on here who support Booty over TJ, IMO, would support "ANY" college QB whom they've heard of to start over TJ... no matter WHAT round they were drafted in..!!!
    I strongly believe that!!...

    and to that comment about all the good QB's come from BIG schools or something like that is bogus!!..

    Probably about half or about half of the qb's in the league that start come from smaller schools albeit D-1 schools but not elite programs...

    1. Jay Cutler - Vandy (not exactly known for being an elite program)
    2. Tony Romo - Eastern Illinois
    3. David Garrard - East Carolina
    4. Chad Pennington - Marshall
    5. Jeff Garcia - San Jose St.
    6. Ben Roethlesberger - Miami Ohio
    7. Kurt Warner - Northern Iowa
    8. Donavan McNabb - Syracuse (when's the last time they had a player drafted who Quadry Ismail?)
    9. John Kitna - Central Washington
    10. Sage Rosenfels - Iowa St.. (played admirably for Texas w/o Shaub)
    11. Derek Anderson - Oregon St.
    12. Phil Rivers - NC State (not exactly a football school)
    13. Drew Brees - Purdue (not exactly an elite football program)
    14. Brett Favre - Southern Miss...
    15. Steve McNair - Alcorn St.
    16. Marc Bulger - West Va


    That's about half of the QB's and who by the way start for their teams... So program means nothing!!!
    Shoot, three of the top 5 qb's going into next year based on last seasons QB rating, went to small schools, (David Garrard, Tony Romo, Ben Roesthlesberger)...ranked 3, 5 and 2 respectively... see for yourself...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=pass&season=2&year=2007


    The fact of the matter remains, that just because you dislike TJ, honestly sit back and think about what you are saying related to whether starting Booty is a realistic option for a playoff team....
    Especially with the experience at QB we have in front of the guy... FUrthermore, would you risk you job on it by starting JDB over TJ or Frerotte??.. what about all your bank account??
    not exactly a risk i'd want to take!!!... especially based on a college track record... JDB did cost his team games with a few untimely interceptions last year as i recall!!!!


    Regardless... we'll see but I don't see how anybody that knows anything about football could even think we'd start JDB over TJ... classic point..

    IF WE WERE GONNA START A QB OVER TJ DON'T YOU THINK WE WOULD HAVE DRAFTED HENNE OR BROHM instead of waiting on Booty in the 5th... both of them are better than Booty!!!


    And your PROOF of that is WHAT?
    They got drafted higher???

    Tell that to Tom Brady when someone suggests that Chad Pennington is a better QB than he is.


    THAT being said, I agree that it is highly unlikely that Booty would start over TJack this season....but speaking in absolutes is just a trap for fools...unless you are the one making the final decision on who is starting...and unless you are Wilf, Chilly, Spielman or Studwell, I'm guessing that you don't get to make the final decision.
    :P
    Bingo! Damn Caj you are on fire the last couple days. How can anyone say Henne or Brohm might be better? How does any of us know? I like the fact that Henne and Booty won big bowl games last year. Even Brohm won a big won a year ago. Seems like all three have pretty good resumes and I am glad that we at least got one of them.

    Tidbits:

    Brian Brohm:
    The Bad: As a senior, he made too many mistakes and tried to force the play at times. He must improve his decision making and pocket presence to realize his potential as a pro prospect. He opted out of the critical Senior Bowl All-star game because of a lower leg injury.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=36481&type=scouting report#scouting

    Chad Henne:
    The Bad: He needs further work in his overall game and his footwork in particular on his drops and setting in the pocket. A late-season shoulder injury could be cause for concern, though he erased some doubts by having an excellent postseason.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=36003&type=scouting report#scouting

    John David Booty:
    The Bad: He lacks the strong arm that NFL scouts seek in a prospect, though he has enough arm strength to compete for NFL starting time. He loses accuracy in the deeper game. He can struggle to drive the ball down the field and make the tough throw. As a runner, he is barely adequate.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=7679&type=scoutingr eport#scouting

    Interesting that TJ stills struggles with this same stuff. Out of all three of these bad statements, I think I would go with Booty.

  2. #102
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "singersp" wrote:

    Love how you mention mechanics as two line items & nervous, panicky & confused as two line items to make your list look longer. Jackson has proven to be a very accurate passer on numerous throws. I'd say more so than not. Especially when given the time to throw. Or are you saying T-Will dropped those passes because they were poorly thrown? I have also seen him stay more poised in the pocket as the season progressed last year, but I don't blame him solely when he does flee. After all, our line did allow 38 sacks to the QB last year. Give him credit, he's young, learning as he goes & is trying to make something happen instead of just conceding & taking the sacks.

    Mechanics are fixable & the coaches are working with him on that. He does revert back to throwing off his back foot once in awhile, but that is the exception, not the norm.

    I'll cross off all your positives on Booty until he can prove those same positives in the NFL. NFL football is a lot different than college ball. It's a lot faster & you're facing a lot better players each & every game.

    When Booty can show those same positives in the NFL then you can add them. Until then, it's an apples & orange comparison.
    Lets be real, those sacks were not totally the lines fault... TJ couldn't make a quick enough decision, thus he hasn't shown he is fully up to the speed of the NFL yet.
    Probably because the SWAC is a major step down from the speed of the PAC 10.

    TJ is still playing catch up from his sub-par college preparation.
    Booty is coming in to the NFL leaps and bounds ahead of TJ as a rookie, spending 4 years in a Pro style offense facing some of the best teams in the country.
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  3. #103
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "marstc09" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    You know all of these ppl on here who support Booty over TJ, IMO, would support "ANY" college QB whom they've heard of to start over TJ... no matter WHAT round they were drafted in..!!!
    I strongly believe that!!...

    and to that comment about all the good QB's come from BIG schools or something like that is bogus!!..

    Probably about half or about half of the qb's in the league that start come from smaller schools albeit D-1 schools but not elite programs...

    1. Jay Cutler - Vandy (not exactly known for being an elite program)
    2. Tony Romo - Eastern Illinois
    3. David Garrard - East Carolina
    4. Chad Pennington - Marshall
    5. Jeff Garcia - San Jose St.
    6. Ben Roethlesberger - Miami Ohio
    7. Kurt Warner - Northern Iowa
    8. Donavan McNabb - Syracuse (when's the last time they had a player drafted who Quadry Ismail?)
    9. John Kitna - Central Washington
    10. Sage Rosenfels - Iowa St.. (played admirably for Texas w/o Shaub)
    11. Derek Anderson - Oregon St.
    12. Phil Rivers - NC State (not exactly a football school)
    13. Drew Brees - Purdue (not exactly an elite football program)
    14. Brett Favre - Southern Miss...
    15. Steve McNair - Alcorn St.
    16. Marc Bulger - West Va


    That's about half of the QB's and who by the way start for their teams... So program means nothing!!!
    Shoot, three of the top 5 qb's going into next year based on last seasons QB rating, went to small schools, (David Garrard, Tony Romo, Ben Roesthlesberger)...ranked 3, 5 and 2 respectively... see for yourself...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=pass&season=2&year=2007


    The fact of the matter remains, that just because you dislike TJ, honestly sit back and think about what you are saying related to whether starting Booty is a realistic option for a playoff team....
    Especially with the experience at QB we have in front of the guy... FUrthermore, would you risk you job on it by starting JDB over TJ or Frerotte??.. what about all your bank account??
    not exactly a risk i'd want to take!!!... especially based on a college track record... JDB did cost his team games with a few untimely interceptions last year as i recall!!!!


    Regardless... we'll see but I don't see how anybody that knows anything about football could even think we'd start JDB over TJ... classic point..

    IF WE WERE GONNA START A QB OVER TJ DON'T YOU THINK WE WOULD HAVE DRAFTED HENNE OR BROHM instead of waiting on Booty in the 5th... both of them are better than Booty!!!


    And your PROOF of that is WHAT?
    They got drafted higher???

    Tell that to Tom Brady when someone suggests that Chad Pennington is a better QB than he is.


    THAT being said, I agree that it is highly unlikely that Booty would start over TJack this season....but speaking in absolutes is just a trap for fools...unless you are the one making the final decision on who is starting...and unless you are Wilf, Chilly, Spielman or Studwell, I'm guessing that you don't get to make the final decision.
    :P
    Bingo! gol 'darnit Caj you are on fire the last couple days. How can anyone say Henne or Brohm might be better? How does any of us know? I like the fact that Henne and Booty won big bowl games last year. Even Brohm won a big won a year ago. Seems like all three have pretty good resumes and I am glad that we at least got one of them.

    Tidbits:

    Brian Brohm:
    The Bad: As a senior, he made too many mistakes and tried to force the play at times. He must improve his decision making and pocket presence to realize his potential as a pro prospect. He opted out of the critical Senior Bowl All-star game because of a lower leg injury.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=36481&type=scouting report#scouting

    Chad Henne:
    The Bad: He needs further work in his overall game and his footwork in particular on his drops and setting in the pocket. A late-season shoulder injury could be cause for concern, though he erased some doubts by having an excellent postseason.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=36003&type=scouting report#scouting

    John David Booty:
    The Bad: He lacks the strong arm that NFL scouts seek in a prospect, though he has enough arm strength to compete for NFL starting time. He loses accuracy in the deeper game. He can struggle to drive the ball down the field and make the tough throw. As a runner, he is barely adequate.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=7679&type=scoutingr eport#scouting

    Interesting that TJ stills struggles with this same stuff. Out of all three of these bad statements, I think I would go with Booty.
    Cajun.. if your only example of such a thing is TOM BRADY!!!! then while you have a good example... you have one example!!!.... all 32 teams passed on Brady as well as the pats 5 times in fact!!!!... so to have only one example to use in comparison is crazy!!! (plus, Brady didn't start as a rookie) I'll ask you this!!

    How many QB's drafted below the 4th round are even starting in the NFL???
    My guess is only 2.. Brady and Romo... (without doing research)

    and none of them started in their 1st season.. my point is, if the Vikes were so bent on getting competition for TJ instead of developing a prospect the RIGHT WAY (on the bench), then my argument states, they would have arguably drafted one of the ELITE prospects in the draft.. as they were higher rated prospects..

    and their were 5 QB's taken in the 1st 3 rounds... your forgetting Kevin O'Connel drafted in the 3rd round by the PATS... and i'm sure the PATS drafted him to push Brady or to play in case Brady gets hurt right?? :

    I've never said Booty wasn't a good QB but to expect him to unseat 2 veterans on a potential playoff team is ridiculous...

    i'm not saying it can't happen... I'm saying it won't happen!!...


  4. #104
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "marstc09" wrote:
    "cajunvike" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    You know all of these ppl on here who support Booty over TJ, IMO, would support "ANY" college QB whom they've heard of to start over TJ... no matter WHAT round they were drafted in..!!!
    I strongly believe that!!...

    and to that comment about all the good QB's come from BIG schools or something like that is bogus!!..

    Probably about half or about half of the qb's in the league that start come from smaller schools albeit D-1 schools but not elite programs...

    1. Jay Cutler - Vandy (not exactly known for being an elite program)
    2. Tony Romo - Eastern Illinois
    3. David Garrard - East Carolina
    4. Chad Pennington - Marshall
    5. Jeff Garcia - San Jose St.
    6. Ben Roethlesberger - Miami Ohio
    7. Kurt Warner - Northern Iowa
    8. Donavan McNabb - Syracuse (when's the last time they had a player drafted who Quadry Ismail?)
    9. John Kitna - Central Washington
    10. Sage Rosenfels - Iowa St.. (played admirably for Texas w/o Shaub)
    11. Derek Anderson - Oregon St.
    12. Phil Rivers - NC State (not exactly a football school)
    13. Drew Brees - Purdue (not exactly an elite football program)
    14. Brett Favre - Southern Miss...
    15. Steve McNair - Alcorn St.
    16. Marc Bulger - West Va


    That's about half of the QB's and who by the way start for their teams... So program means nothing!!!
    Shoot, three of the top 5 qb's going into next year based on last seasons QB rating, went to small schools, (David Garrard, Tony Romo, Ben Roesthlesberger)...ranked 3, 5 and 2 respectively... see for yourself...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=pass&season=2&year=2007


    The fact of the matter remains, that just because you dislike TJ, honestly sit back and think about what you are saying related to whether starting Booty is a realistic option for a playoff team....
    Especially with the experience at QB we have in front of the guy... FUrthermore, would you risk you job on it by starting JDB over TJ or Frerotte??.. what about all your bank account??

    not exactly a risk i'd want to take!!!... especially based on a college track record... JDB did cost his team games with a few untimely interceptions last year as i recall!!!!


    Regardless... we'll see but I don't see how anybody that knows anything about football could even think we'd start JDB over TJ... classic point..

    IF WE WERE GONNA START A QB OVER TJ DON'T YOU THINK WE WOULD HAVE DRAFTED HENNE OR BROHM instead of waiting on Booty in the 5th... both of them are better than Booty!!!


    And your PROOF of that is WHAT?
    They got drafted higher???

    Tell that to Tom Brady when someone suggests that Chad Pennington is a better QB than he is.


    THAT being said, I agree that it is highly unlikely that Booty would start over TJack this season....but speaking in absolutes is just a trap for fools...unless you are the one making the final decision on who is starting...and unless you are Wilf, Chilly, Spielman or Studwell, I'm guessing that you don't get to make the final decision.
    :P
    Bingo! Damn Caj you are on fire the last couple days. How can anyone say Henne or Brohm might be better? How does any of us know? I like the fact that Henne and Booty won big bowl games last year. Even Brohm won a big won a year ago. Seems like all three have pretty good resumes and I am glad that we at least got one of them.

    Tidbits:

    Brian Brohm:
    The Bad: As a senior, he made too many mistakes and tried to force the play at times. He must improve his decision making and pocket presence to realize his potential as a pro prospect. He opted out of the critical Senior Bowl All-star game because of a lower leg injury.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=36481&type=scouting report#scouting

    Chad Henne:
    The Bad: He needs further work in his overall game and his footwork in particular on his drops and setting in the pocket. A late-season shoulder injury could be cause for concern, though he erased some doubts by having an excellent postseason.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=36003&type=scouting report#scouting

    John David Booty:
    The Bad: He lacks the strong arm that NFL scouts seek in a prospect, though he has enough arm strength to compete for NFL starting time. He loses accuracy in the deeper game. He can struggle to drive the ball down the field and make the tough throw. As a runner, he is barely adequate.
    http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?sport=1&player=7679&type=scoutingr eport#scouting

    Interesting that TJ stills struggles with this same stuff. Out of all three of these bad statements, I think I would go with Booty.
    Looking at only the negatives is a terrible way to assess talent.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  5. #105
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    I started this thread and I think TJ is the best option at this point, as I'm not sure how much he has improved over the off season.

    Here's a few responses to
    - The thing I've read over and over again is Booty is not ready for the NFL speed.


    As Booty has never played a down in the NFL, this is just speculation.
    Most likely your right... but can you say TJ has fully adapted to the NFL speed?
    His decision making speed is still sluggish, resulting in the 38 sacks and poor throws.

    - Booty doesn't know the Vikes version of the WCO.

    Well DUH.
    I don't think the Vikes give their playbook out to anyone.
    But the fact that Booty has been in a Pro style WCO for 5 years, had significant playing time including starter for 23 games.
    TJ has been in a version of WCO for 2 years, 14 starts.

    - If Booty is sooooo good why was he drafted in the 5th round?


    In general Booty was the 5th best QB in the draft.
    But for the Vikes he was the best QB in the draft, given his WCO background, pro style prep, top quality competition, and outstanding success given less than steller support.
    Booty is an excellent fit, he knew it give he told ESPN a week before the draft that he wanted to go to MN, Pete Carroll knew it as he recommended Booty to the Vikes, and obviously the Vikes knew it.
    Also, why draft Booty in the 2nd when you know you can get him in the 5th.... Vikes are smart.

    - Booty is not ready to start in the NFL

    I agree in general given that he hasn't had an opportunity to learn Vikes system or develop chemistry with his team makes.
    BUT Booty has a leg up on TJ in other areas, such as listed above.

    One thing Booty has that TJ doesn't is success at a national level in high pressure situations, such as 2 Rose Bowl victories.
    TJ hasn't faced off field pressure anywhere close to what Booty has and
    Booty has risen to the occasion and WON.
    TJ's only real pressure was to win the last 2 games to make the playoff and he performed poorly against beatable teams (WASH and DEN).
    He's most likely NOT a pressure guy, not having the BIG national exposure.

    - TJ has lots of excuses why he didn't excel.... poor receivers, weak O-line, etc.

    These points are not relevant as they have nothing to do with preparation.
    If you said TJ made accurate short passes resulting in lots of YAC yards, made quick decisions, is good in going through his progressions to find the open receivers, etc.
    All elements of ANY WCO then I would understand BUT TJ is still weak in these areas.
    Booty on the other hand is well skilled in these areas.
    AND all of these skills translate to the NFL.
    Booty most likely had close to the same time in the pocket at USC to do these things as he will with the Vikes.


    Thanks for all the responses, I love to read what everyone thinks.
    I'm am a supporter of TJ's, I'm praying he has turned the corner on the learning curve and will lead the Vikes to the SB.
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  6. #106
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "bleedpurple" wrote:

    i'm not saying it can't happen... I'm saying it won't happen!!...
    I love the absolutes as they are sooooo easy to refute... take this scenario...

    Vikes are 0-12, TJ and GF have QB ratings below 70 mostly due to INT's and lack of TD's and have nagging injuries.
    Booty was steller in camp and had a 140 QB rating in the pre-season.
    You would keep in TJ or GF?
    Why?

    I know this scenario is stupid, but your absolute is more so.
    Keep to the reasonable.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "gagarr" wrote:
    - Booty doesn't know the Vikes version of the WCO.

    Well DUH.
    I don't think the Vikes give their playbook out to anyone.
    But the fact that Booty has been in a Pro style WCO for 5 years, had significant playing time including starter for 23 games.
    TJ has been in a version of WCO for 2 years, 14 starts.
    << sigh >>

    A college level WCO is nothing like a pro level WCO.
    Booty's "pro style" WCO doesn't cut it.

    Hell if you want to use that same logic, I've been driving "pro style" cars for 17 years (Taurus, Monte Carlo, Charger).
    Kyle Bush is only 22, so he has only been driving for 6 years.
    So obviously I am more prepared to take the wheel of a NASCAR car than he is...

    Booty's 23 games starting at the college level does not give him anything even close to an edge over TJack with his 14 starts at the NFL level.
    Give me a break.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #108
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "gagarr" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:

    i'm not saying it can't happen... I'm saying it won't happen!!...
    I love the absolutes as they are sooooo easy to refute... take this scenario...

    Vikes are 0-12, TJ and GF have QB ratings below 70 mostly due to INT's and lack of TD's and have nagging injuries.
    Booty was steller in camp and had a 140 QB rating in the pre-season.
    You would keep in TJ or GF?
    Why?

    I know this scenario is stupid, but your absolute is more so.
    Keep to the reasonable.
    How about this.
    The Vikings are in the super bowl against the San Diego Chargers when a nuclear bomb destroys the Denver Skydome...

    Just about as plausible.
    And a good book too.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  9. #109
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    - Booty doesn't know the Vikes version of the WCO.

    Well DUH.
    I don't think the Vikes give their playbook out to anyone.
    But the fact that Booty has been in a Pro style WCO for 5 years, had significant playing time including starter for 23 games.
    TJ has been in a version of WCO for 2 years, 14 starts.
    << sigh >>

    A college level WCO is nothing like a pro level WCO.
    Booty's "pro style" WCO doesn't cut it.

    Hell if you want to use that same logic, I've been driving "pro style" cars for 17 years (Taurus, Monte Carlo, Charger).
    Kyle Bush is only 22, so he has only been driving for 6 years.
    So obviously I am more prepared to take the wheel of a NASCAR car than he is...

    Booty's 23 games starting at the college level does not give him anything even close to an edge over TJack with his 14 starts at the NFL level.
    Give me a break.
    With that logic if Booty had 5 years experience in the Run and Shoot he would be just as good to the Vikes as having 5 years in the WCO.
    Again I think if you ask ANY pro scout they will tell you the system the QB has played in is a factor in their decision.
    Please Please tell everyone on this board I'm wrong, Mel Kiper is wrong, Chilly is wrong... because in draft interviews they all mentioned Booty's experience in the WCO.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Booty more prepared as rookie than TJack

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "gagarr" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:

    i'm not saying it can't happen... I'm saying it won't happen!!...
    I love the absolutes as they are sooooo easy to refute... take this scenario...

    Vikes are 0-12, TJ and GF have QB ratings below 70 mostly due to INT's and lack of TD's and have nagging injuries.
    Booty was steller in camp and had a 140 QB rating in the pre-season.
    You would keep in TJ or GF?
    Why?

    I know this scenario is stupid, but your absolute is more so.
    Keep to the reasonable.
    How about this.
    The Vikings are in the super bowl against the San Diego Chargers when a nuclear bomb destroys the Denver Skydome...

    Just about as plausible.
    And a good book too.
    I agree if Booty is dead he will never start for the Vikes.... especially if all the Vikings are dead too.
    Really stupid logic as I already admitted the scenario was stupid...

    All you needed to say was " you are right, it's not impossible, just VERY VERY VERY unlikely"
    or "only a fool would do it" (which Chilly might prove to be one)
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