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  1. #1
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Another take on the secondary...

    I was looking back at the secondary play last year and made a few interesting observations I thought I would share.

    1. Injuries abound - We were one of the most banged up Secondaries in the league, after the BAL and PIT games. From week 7 to 15 we had major issues with Winfield and minor issues with 3 or 4 other secondary players each week.

    2. Drop-off against WR1s and in Nickel situation - I noticed that WR1s plagued us thru the entire year. I looked back at every game, and one thing that surprised me is that for the entire year, we did very well against most teams when the game was on the line. The only WRs that were really successful against us in "tight games" were WR1s. The exception to that was that we really struggled against teams that could put 3 or more good recievrs on the field and/or we were forced into a Nickel defense. TEs kicked our butts all year long.

    3. A noticeable drop in performance with injuries - Getting back to those injuries, I saw a huge increase in long plays in week 6 and beyond. Those games against BAL and PIT must have been more physical than I remember. Glad they are off the schedule this year. Before the injuries you didn't see a lot of big plays, after the injuries it was like the flood gates were opened until very late in the year and the playoffs when the secondary got healthier again.

    4. statistics (non-believers can skip this section)point to a need for a CB with "Cover Corner" skills and added depth - looking at our rankings against different talent WR levels is interesting:

    WR1s..........24th
    WR2s..........11th
    other WRs...29th

    These rankings line-up with our struggles against WR1s noted earlier and our struggles in the nickel package and with teams that have 3 quality recievers.

    Well, what does this all say to me...we need to go after a CB with real "Cover Skills" or we won't make any real difference at all. By being healthier we will probably improve in the nickle situation, a draft choice would add insurance there as well, but, to truly make a difference compared to last year we need to be able to Cover top flight WR1s better.

    Last year 2xGB+ARI+PIT+CHI(last game) were the only games we played against teams with 3 good WRs. GB put up tons of yards, ARI hurt us, and while PIT disn't get a lot of yards they got some big plays and an early Score by a non WR1 (Wallace). That's 5 games. This year it looks like 9 games with 3 good recievers. We lost 3 out of 5 games last year, we can't afford that next year.

    Also, last year we had only 4 games against "Good" TEs and we got ripped. This year we have 10 games against "Good" TEs and thats not even assuming Pettigrew makes improvements next year, I am not counting him. Our LBs will really have to pick up there coverage game this year as well.

    I wouldn't mind seeing 3 of our first 4 picks being CB,LB,S in that order. A stud LB at the bottom of the first that can cover might be more important than a stud CB in the first round. If we don't change the scheme we need to up the talent level where we are weak.

    Well, those are my observations on what is by far the weakest portion of of our team.
    None

  2. #2
    marstc09's Avatar
    marstc09 is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.

  3. #3
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #4
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    Marrdro wrote:
    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    I did look at one other team, the 2008 Vikings, and we performed much better against WR1s (7) with a healthier Winfield. And we sucked in 2007 when he was hurt as well. It appears that Winfields health/performance is the straw that stirs our drink. He is a special CB when healthy.

    I wouldn't give up on the scheme just yet, but, I would definitely focus on bringing in a guy who can cover WR1s.

    I look at defensive SOS a lot for Fantasy football and one thing that is very clear is that CB/secondary play is one of the most volatile positions in all of Football. A good player gets hurt and whamo, your giving up yards and TDs all the time. Bring in a good new player (especially vets) and whamo, your team is now stingy as hell in the secondary.

    The bigger problem with our personnel and the Tampa-2 scheme probably lies with TE Coverage and LB. EJ Henderson is a great leader and high energy LB, but, he is far from ideal as a Tampa-2 MLB. He relys on reading the offense and positioning himself. When he is wrong he doesn't have the speed to recover against the leagues new breed of Tight ends.

    EJ Henderson 4.8 40
    V Davis 4.35
    G Olson 4.51
    D Clark 4.55

    I would say 90% of pass catching TEs are faster than EJ and half of those guys are all sub 4.6 speeds.

    The target speed for a Tampa 2 ILB is 4.5 to 4.6. (EX B Urlacher at 4.57) if you expect to have success against the TE,(it helps that Urlacher is an ex safety as well).


    With EJs recovery questioned and Brinkley not being a classic Tampa 2 ILB, it might be interesting to see Spielman wrangle a trade of Brinkley and our 3rd pick for a 2nd round pick this year (Brinkleys original grade, he would be perfect in a traditional cover-2)

    It would be easier to replace ILB and upgrade CB than to switch schemes and replace probably every corner and half the safties.

    Well, I will sit back and wait to get trashed for saying something bad about EJ now...
    None

  5. #5
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    I did look at one other team, the 2008 Vikings, and we performed much better against WR1s (7) with a healthier Winfield. And we sucked in 2007 when he was hurt as well. It appears that Winfields health/performance is the straw that stirs our drink. He is a special CB when healthy.

    I wouldn't give up on the scheme just yet, but, I would definitely focus on bringing in a guy who can cover WR1s.

    I look at defensive SOS a lot for Fantasy football and one thing that is very clear is that CB/secondary play is one of the most volatile positions in all of Football. A good player gets hurt and whamo, your giving up yards and TDs all the time. Bring in a good new player (especially vets) and whamo, your team is now stingy as hell in the secondary.

    The bigger problem with our personnel and the Tampa-2 scheme probably lies with TE Coverage and LB. EJ Henderson is a great leader and high energy LB, but, he is far from ideal as a Tampa-2 MLB. He relys on reading the offense and positioning himself. When he is wrong he doesn't have the speed to recover against the leagues new breed of Tight ends.

    EJ Henderson 4.8 40
    V Davis 4.35
    G Olson 4.51
    D Clark 4.55

    I would say 90% of pass catching TEs are faster than EJ and half of those guys are all sub 4.6 speeds.

    The target speed for a Tampa 2 ILB is 4.5 to 4.6. (EX B Urlacher at 4.57) if you expect to have success against the TE,(it helps that Urlacher is an ex safety as well).


    With EJs recovery questioned and Brinkley not being a classic Tampa 2 ILB, it might be interesting to see Spielman wrangle a trade of Brinkley and our 3rd pick for a 2nd round pick this year (Brinkleys original grade, he would be perfect in a traditional cover-2)

    It would be easier to replace ILB and upgrade CB than to switch schemes and replace probably every corner and half the safties.

    Well, I will sit back and wait to get trashed for saying something bad about EJ now...
    But it isn't as easy as looking at what we did from one year to the next, especially in 2006, 2007 and to some degree 2008 as Griff was making all kinds of rookie mistakes, our LB situation was stabilized and most importantly, we didn't have any semblence of pressure from just our front 4.

    Long story short, for the CB's and S's to look good in this scheme, you need to force the QB to get rid of the ball quick. To stop that, you need LB'rs who can drop into those short routes.

    Take one of those away and, as with what most of the rags are righting now, blame will automatically be pointed to the secondary for poor WR coverage.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost every sports hack out there. We need help at CB, but we also need help at LB and DL as well. When all facets are clicking, the cover 2 is a damn good defense, but if you have to use LB'rs to augment the DL when it comes to getting pressure on the QB, you weaken one area/zone of coverage which will result in a drop in your coverage skills.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #6
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    I did look at one other team, the 2008 Vikings, and we performed much better against WR1s (7) with a healthier Winfield. And we sucked in 2007 when he was hurt as well. It appears that Winfields health/performance is the straw that stirs our drink. He is a special CB when healthy.

    I wouldn't give up on the scheme just yet, but, I would definitely focus on bringing in a guy who can cover WR1s.

    I look at defensive SOS a lot for Fantasy football and one thing that is very clear is that CB/secondary play is one of the most volatile positions in all of Football. A good player gets hurt and whamo, your giving up yards and TDs all the time. Bring in a good new player (especially vets) and whamo, your team is now stingy as hell in the secondary.

    The bigger problem with our personnel and the Tampa-2 scheme probably lies with TE Coverage and LB. EJ Henderson is a great leader and high energy LB, but, he is far from ideal as a Tampa-2 MLB. He relys on reading the offense and positioning himself. When he is wrong he doesn't have the speed to recover against the leagues new breed of Tight ends.

    EJ Henderson 4.8 40
    V Davis 4.35
    G Olson 4.51
    D Clark 4.55

    I would say 90% of pass catching TEs are faster than EJ and half of those guys are all sub 4.6 speeds.

    The target speed for a Tampa 2 ILB is 4.5 to 4.6. (EX B Urlacher at 4.57) if you expect to have success against the TE,(it helps that Urlacher is an ex safety as well).


    With EJs recovery questioned and Brinkley not being a classic Tampa 2 ILB, it might be interesting to see Spielman wrangle a trade of Brinkley and our 3rd pick for a 2nd round pick this year (Brinkleys original grade, he would be perfect in a traditional cover-2)

    It would be easier to replace ILB and upgrade CB than to switch schemes and replace probably every corner and half the safties.

    Well, I will sit back and wait to get trashed for saying something bad about EJ now...
    But it isn't as easy as looking at what we did from one year to the next, especially in 2006, 2007 and to some degree 2008 as Griff was making all kinds of rookie mistakes, our LB situation was stabilized and most importantly, we didn't have any semblence of pressure from just our front 4.

    Long story short, for the CB's and S's to look good in this scheme, you need to force the QB to get rid of the ball quick. To stop that, you need LB'rs who can drop into those short routes.

    Take one of those away and, as with what most of the rags are righting now, blame will automatically be pointed to the secondary for poor WR coverage.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost every sports hack out there. We need help at CB, but we also need help at LB and DL as well. When all facets are clicking, the cover 2 is a damn good defense, but if you have to use LB'rs to augment the DL when it comes to getting pressure on the QB, you weaken one area/zone of coverage which will result in a drop in your coverage skills.
    Maybe I didn't make it clear...my main point was to upgrade LB coverage skillsmto improve coverage in the middle zone, not to use LBs more to rush the passer.
    None

  7. #7
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    I did look at one other team, the 2008 Vikings, and we performed much better against WR1s (7) with a healthier Winfield. And we sucked in 2007 when he was hurt as well. It appears that Winfields health/performance is the straw that stirs our drink. He is a special CB when healthy.

    I wouldn't give up on the scheme just yet, but, I would definitely focus on bringing in a guy who can cover WR1s.

    I look at defensive SOS a lot for Fantasy football and one thing that is very clear is that CB/secondary play is one of the most volatile positions in all of Football. A good player gets hurt and whamo, your giving up yards and TDs all the time. Bring in a good new player (especially vets) and whamo, your team is now stingy as hell in the secondary.

    The bigger problem with our personnel and the Tampa-2 scheme probably lies with TE Coverage and LB. EJ Henderson is a great leader and high energy LB, but, he is far from ideal as a Tampa-2 MLB. He relys on reading the offense and positioning himself. When he is wrong he doesn't have the speed to recover against the leagues new breed of Tight ends.

    EJ Henderson 4.8 40
    V Davis 4.35
    G Olson 4.51
    D Clark 4.55

    I would say 90% of pass catching TEs are faster than EJ and half of those guys are all sub 4.6 speeds.

    The target speed for a Tampa 2 ILB is 4.5 to 4.6. (EX B Urlacher at 4.57) if you expect to have success against the TE,(it helps that Urlacher is an ex safety as well).


    With EJs recovery questioned and Brinkley not being a classic Tampa 2 ILB, it might be interesting to see Spielman wrangle a trade of Brinkley and our 3rd pick for a 2nd round pick this year (Brinkleys original grade, he would be perfect in a traditional cover-2)

    It would be easier to replace ILB and upgrade CB than to switch schemes and replace probably every corner and half the safties.

    Well, I will sit back and wait to get trashed for saying something bad about EJ now...
    But it isn't as easy as looking at what we did from one year to the next, especially in 2006, 2007 and to some degree 2008 as Griff was making all kinds of rookie mistakes, our LB situation was stabilized and most importantly, we didn't have any semblence of pressure from just our front 4.

    Long story short, for the CB's and S's to look good in this scheme, you need to force the QB to get rid of the ball quick. To stop that, you need LB'rs who can drop into those short routes.

    Take one of those away and, as with what most of the rags are righting now, blame will automatically be pointed to the secondary for poor WR coverage.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost every sports hack out there. We need help at CB, but we also need help at LB and DL as well. When all facets are clicking, the cover 2 is a damn good defense, but if you have to use LB'rs to augment the DL when it comes to getting pressure on the QB, you weaken one area/zone of coverage which will result in a drop in your coverage skills.
    Maybe I didn't make it clear...my main point was to upgrade LB coverage skillsmto improve coverage in the middle zone, not to use LBs more to rush the passer.
    I got that, I just kindof went down the other rabbit hole abit when it comes to using the LB'rs to generate pressure.

    Doesn't matter how good thier coverage skills are if they aren't in coverage.

    My apologies for not articulating that better.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #8
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    I did look at one other team, the 2008 Vikings, and we performed much better against WR1s (7) with a healthier Winfield. And we sucked in 2007 when he was hurt as well. It appears that Winfields health/performance is the straw that stirs our drink. He is a special CB when healthy.

    I wouldn't give up on the scheme just yet, but, I would definitely focus on bringing in a guy who can cover WR1s.

    I look at defensive SOS a lot for Fantasy football and one thing that is very clear is that CB/secondary play is one of the most volatile positions in all of Football. A good player gets hurt and whamo, your giving up yards and TDs all the time. Bring in a good new player (especially vets) and whamo, your team is now stingy as hell in the secondary.

    The bigger problem with our personnel and the Tampa-2 scheme probably lies with TE Coverage and LB. EJ Henderson is a great leader and high energy LB, but, he is far from ideal as a Tampa-2 MLB. He relys on reading the offense and positioning himself. When he is wrong he doesn't have the speed to recover against the leagues new breed of Tight ends.

    EJ Henderson 4.8 40
    V Davis 4.35
    G Olson 4.51
    D Clark 4.55

    I would say 90% of pass catching TEs are faster than EJ and half of those guys are all sub 4.6 speeds.

    The target speed for a Tampa 2 ILB is 4.5 to 4.6. (EX B Urlacher at 4.57) if you expect to have success against the TE,(it helps that Urlacher is an ex safety as well).


    With EJs recovery questioned and Brinkley not being a classic Tampa 2 ILB, it might be interesting to see Spielman wrangle a trade of Brinkley and our 3rd pick for a 2nd round pick this year (Brinkleys original grade, he would be perfect in a traditional cover-2)

    It would be easier to replace ILB and upgrade CB than to switch schemes and replace probably every corner and half the safties.

    Well, I will sit back and wait to get trashed for saying something bad about EJ now...
    But it isn't as easy as looking at what we did from one year to the next, especially in 2006, 2007 and to some degree 2008 as Griff was making all kinds of rookie mistakes, our LB situation was stabilized and most importantly, we didn't have any semblence of pressure from just our front 4.

    Long story short, for the CB's and S's to look good in this scheme, you need to force the QB to get rid of the ball quick. To stop that, you need LB'rs who can drop into those short routes.

    Take one of those away and, as with what most of the rags are righting now, blame will automatically be pointed to the secondary for poor WR coverage.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost every sports hack out there. We need help at CB, but we also need help at LB and DL as well. When all facets are clicking, the cover 2 is a damn good defense, but if you have to use LB'rs to augment the DL when it comes to getting pressure on the QB, you weaken one area/zone of coverage which will result in a drop in your coverage skills.
    Maybe I didn't make it clear...my main point was to upgrade LB coverage skillsmto improve coverage in the middle zone, not to use LBs more to rush the passer.
    I got that, I just kindof went down the other rabbit hole abit when it comes to using the LB'rs to generate pressure.

    Doesn't matter how good thier coverage skills are if they aren't in coverage.

    My apologies for not articulating that better.
    So, maybe we need a thread on the DLinemen...?

    What do they need to consistently bring the pressure?
    None

  9. #9
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    I did look at one other team, the 2008 Vikings, and we performed much better against WR1s (7) with a healthier Winfield. And we sucked in 2007 when he was hurt as well. It appears that Winfields health/performance is the straw that stirs our drink. He is a special CB when healthy.

    I wouldn't give up on the scheme just yet, but, I would definitely focus on bringing in a guy who can cover WR1s.

    I look at defensive SOS a lot for Fantasy football and one thing that is very clear is that CB/secondary play is one of the most volatile positions in all of Football. A good player gets hurt and whamo, your giving up yards and TDs all the time. Bring in a good new player (especially vets) and whamo, your team is now stingy as hell in the secondary.

    The bigger problem with our personnel and the Tampa-2 scheme probably lies with TE Coverage and LB. EJ Henderson is a great leader and high energy LB, but, he is far from ideal as a Tampa-2 MLB. He relys on reading the offense and positioning himself. When he is wrong he doesn't have the speed to recover against the leagues new breed of Tight ends.

    EJ Henderson 4.8 40
    V Davis 4.35
    G Olson 4.51
    D Clark 4.55

    I would say 90% of pass catching TEs are faster than EJ and half of those guys are all sub 4.6 speeds.

    The target speed for a Tampa 2 ILB is 4.5 to 4.6. (EX B Urlacher at 4.57) if you expect to have success against the TE,(it helps that Urlacher is an ex safety as well).


    With EJs recovery questioned and Brinkley not being a classic Tampa 2 ILB, it might be interesting to see Spielman wrangle a trade of Brinkley and our 3rd pick for a 2nd round pick this year (Brinkleys original grade, he would be perfect in a traditional cover-2)

    It would be easier to replace ILB and upgrade CB than to switch schemes and replace probably every corner and half the safties.

    Well, I will sit back and wait to get trashed for saying something bad about EJ now...
    But it isn't as easy as looking at what we did from one year to the next, especially in 2006, 2007 and to some degree 2008 as Griff was making all kinds of rookie mistakes, our LB situation was stabilized and most importantly, we didn't have any semblence of pressure from just our front 4.

    Long story short, for the CB's and S's to look good in this scheme, you need to force the QB to get rid of the ball quick. To stop that, you need LB'rs who can drop into those short routes.

    Take one of those away and, as with what most of the rags are righting now, blame will automatically be pointed to the secondary for poor WR coverage.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost every sports hack out there. We need help at CB, but we also need help at LB and DL as well. When all facets are clicking, the cover 2 is a damn good defense, but if you have to use LB'rs to augment the DL when it comes to getting pressure on the QB, you weaken one area/zone of coverage which will result in a drop in your coverage skills.
    Maybe I didn't make it clear...my main point was to upgrade LB coverage skillsmto improve coverage in the middle zone, not to use LBs more to rush the passer.
    I got that, I just kindof went down the other rabbit hole abit when it comes to using the LB'rs to generate pressure.

    Doesn't matter how good thier coverage skills are if they aren't in coverage.

    My apologies for not articulating that better.
    So, maybe we need a thread on the DLinemen...?

    What do they need to consistently bring the pressure?
    Consistency.

    This will sound like I'm bashing JA or Kevin, but I'm not. Both of those dudes eat up alot of reps for us and tend to wear down a bit and at times completely dissappear when we need them.

    One of my biggest knocks on Leslie is his ability to rotate his DLmen so that they stay fresh. I'm not completely ready to admit that I'm wrong for pushing this off on the rotation, but the more I look at it, the more I believe we lack quality depth at the positions of importance in all of this and thats the DL.

    With JK taking the lions share of Phat Pats reps last year, and only really Rob coming out and helping out at LDE/RDE, I just can't help but think that maybe they are getting a bit gassed as well.

    I for one am going to be very interested to see what Guion brings this year (should be a breakout season for him) as well as to see what they do to address this in the draft.

    Again, you can have the best cover LB'rs and cover CB's in the league out there in the zones, but if the QB has time to pass, he will get it done. If you try to bring a LB to help, then you ultimately weaken a zone, which puts more pressure on your CB and S's to make those reads/adjustments, especially if they have a WR clearing out followed by a Back or TE coming out into thier zone as well.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #10
    bsmithberkley is offline Pro-Bowler
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    333

    Re:Another take on the secondary...

    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    bsmithberkley wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    marstc09 wrote:
    For most on the site, it is pretty obvious that CB is a major need. I think Winfield needs to stay in the slot. A certain someone can preach value at lower rounds but that is not what we need. IMO it needs to be 1st or 2nd round.
    That same certain someone yutz will also point out that it doesn't matter who they run back there or were they pick him cause they will just pick another "Cover 2" guy.

    Long story short, its the scheme, not the players. Until we get rid of the cover 2, you will continue to see stats like bsmithberkley provided.

    In fact, I bet if he goes and does the same analysis he did for the Vikes on another team that runs the same scheme he would see the same metrics.

    Until we fix our DL and get consistent pressure with our front 4, which allows the LB'rs to dropp into the short zones, which in turn allows the CB's abit more lattitude to drop, we will continue to have these problems.

    Of course, one could also keep thinking that this staff is gonna go out and draft "Press/Man up Cover CB's" instead of more zone guys but they aren't. Unless of course the scheme is changed.

    I for one hope that the new addition to the DB coaching staff is an inidicator that we might be making a shift in that direction.

    First step in that process is to get rid of Whinny (Cover 2 CB) and add 2 or 3 CB's out of this draft.

    Again, this draft is deep in them. We just might see that happen this year.
    I did look at one other team, the 2008 Vikings, and we performed much better against WR1s (7) with a healthier Winfield. And we sucked in 2007 when he was hurt as well. It appears that Winfields health/performance is the straw that stirs our drink. He is a special CB when healthy.

    I wouldn't give up on the scheme just yet, but, I would definitely focus on bringing in a guy who can cover WR1s.

    I look at defensive SOS a lot for Fantasy football and one thing that is very clear is that CB/secondary play is one of the most volatile positions in all of Football. A good player gets hurt and whamo, your giving up yards and TDs all the time. Bring in a good new player (especially vets) and whamo, your team is now stingy as hell in the secondary.

    The bigger problem with our personnel and the Tampa-2 scheme probably lies with TE Coverage and LB. EJ Henderson is a great leader and high energy LB, but, he is far from ideal as a Tampa-2 MLB. He relys on reading the offense and positioning himself. When he is wrong he doesn't have the speed to recover against the leagues new breed of Tight ends.

    EJ Henderson 4.8 40
    V Davis 4.35
    G Olson 4.51
    D Clark 4.55

    I would say 90% of pass catching TEs are faster than EJ and half of those guys are all sub 4.6 speeds.

    The target speed for a Tampa 2 ILB is 4.5 to 4.6. (EX B Urlacher at 4.57) if you expect to have success against the TE,(it helps that Urlacher is an ex safety as well).


    With EJs recovery questioned and Brinkley not being a classic Tampa 2 ILB, it might be interesting to see Spielman wrangle a trade of Brinkley and our 3rd pick for a 2nd round pick this year (Brinkleys original grade, he would be perfect in a traditional cover-2)

    It would be easier to replace ILB and upgrade CB than to switch schemes and replace probably every corner and half the safties.

    Well, I will sit back and wait to get trashed for saying something bad about EJ now...
    But it isn't as easy as looking at what we did from one year to the next, especially in 2006, 2007 and to some degree 2008 as Griff was making all kinds of rookie mistakes, our LB situation was stabilized and most importantly, we didn't have any semblence of pressure from just our front 4.

    Long story short, for the CB's and S's to look good in this scheme, you need to force the QB to get rid of the ball quick. To stop that, you need LB'rs who can drop into those short routes.

    Take one of those away and, as with what most of the rags are righting now, blame will automatically be pointed to the secondary for poor WR coverage.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost every sports hack out there. We need help at CB, but we also need help at LB and DL as well. When all facets are clicking, the cover 2 is a damn good defense, but if you have to use LB'rs to augment the DL when it comes to getting pressure on the QB, you weaken one area/zone of coverage which will result in a drop in your coverage skills.
    Maybe I didn't make it clear...my main point was to upgrade LB coverage skillsmto improve coverage in the middle zone, not to use LBs more to rush the passer.
    I got that, I just kindof went down the other rabbit hole abit when it comes to using the LB'rs to generate pressure.

    Doesn't matter how good thier coverage skills are if they aren't in coverage.

    My apologies for not articulating that better.
    So, maybe we need a thread on the DLinemen...?

    What do they need to consistently bring the pressure?
    Consistency.

    This will sound like I'm bashing JA or Kevin, but I'm not. Both of those dudes eat up alot of reps for us and tend to wear down a bit and at times completely dissappear when we need them.

    One of my biggest knocks on Leslie is his ability to rotate his DLmen so that they stay fresh. I'm not completely ready to admit that I'm wrong for pushing this off on the rotation, but the more I look at it, the more I believe we lack quality depth at the positions of importance in all of this and thats the DL.

    With JK taking the lions share of Phat Pats reps last year, and only really Rob coming out and helping out at LDE/RDE, I just can't help but think that maybe they are getting a bit gassed as well.

    I for one am going to be very interested to see what Guion brings this year (should be a breakout season for him) as well as to see what they do to address this in the draft.

    Again, you can have the best cover LB'rs and cover CB's in the league out there in the zones, but if the QB has time to pass, he will get it done. If you try to bring a LB to help, then you ultimately weaken a zone, which puts more pressure on your CB and S's to make those reads/adjustments, especially if they have a WR clearing out followed by a Back or TE coming out into thier zone as well.
    What's the old saying..."Quantity has a quality all its own"

    I have to agree, around mid-year, the same time the DBs started showing up on the injured list, the DLine seemed to slow down a bit (Doubles on JA).

    Lets hope Montgomery can bring some quality reps. Couple that with Robison, Mitchell, and Kennedy we should have one heck of a Line. Someone else does need to step-up on the interior, or they need to draft a player.

    I don't like the quality of DTs at the bottom of the first. I think they wait and pick-up a "Project" DT later to push Guion and Evans. They may play a little harder if they see someone nipping at their heels for playing time. Face it, they know they are 2nd stringers behind the Williams wall...what incentive do they have to play harder, who was going to bump them? Light a fire...

    One or two of these D-Linemen is going to find his way to the practice squad when all is said and done. That should be a little incentive for harder play.

    They have the bodies, its how they use em that counts.
    None

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