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  1. #11
    vikingivan is offline Star Spokesman
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "vikingivan" wrote:
    Frank Thomas often put the big hurt on the Twins.
    The Big Hurt has hit exactly one tenth, (that is 50 for any Packer fans looking on) of his homers against us.
    Let us not Forget that Craig Biggio also got his 3000 hit last night.
    I wonder how much the guy that caught the ball will get for it?
    He got a ball, autographed jersey and bat from Frank Thomas after the game because he was willing to give Frank the ball, rather than try to reap personal profit from it.

    Classy move on that guy's part.

    =Z=
    Thanks Z, yes very classy.

  2. #12
    ultravikingfan's Avatar
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "Zeus" wrote:

    Comparing Mazeroski and Maris's defensive statistics is not valid, as they played different positions.
    Maris was an outfielder who handled many fewer balls than a second baseman like Maz.


    Why not compare Maris against other OF's not in the Hall?
    I know the answer - because his career stats in all categories pale in comparison.


    Like it or not, baseball is a statistics-driven sport.
    And numbers are used to judge, in great part, the impact of a player on the game.
    Maris's greatest season, 1961, is well represented in the HoF (ever been there?
    I have) but the body of work for his relatively short career is not HoF-worthy, IMHO.

    =Z=
    :

    If it is stat driven, why is Maz in there?
    For 8 Gold Gloves?
    Come on!
    Then Sandberg should be in there as well.
    But most doubt he will.
    And Roberto Alomar has the most GG's at 2nd, do you think he will be in there?

    You also forgot 1 key element when you linked those other players...World Series!
    Barfield - Never got there
    Allsion - 1 appearance, 0 rings
    Nicholson - 1 appearance, 0 rings
    Sauer - Never got there
    Buhner - Never got there
    Palmer - Never got there
    Armas - 1 appearance, 0 rings (had 1 lousy at bat where is K'd)
    Davis - 1 appearance, 1 ring
    Tartabull - Never got there
    Dye - 2 appearances, 1 ring.

    Why even bring up Dye?
    He is still fricken playing, he could make the Hall.

    Only 1 of those players was an MVP and did it once: Sauer.

    Your arguement is funny.
    You try and justify your case by introducing 2 things that has no bearing on this:
    1.
    European or Asian or South American
    2.
    And the fact that you have been to the HoF

    What does this have to do with this?
    Not a fucking thing.
    Have you been to the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
    If you have, have you been there 5 times?
    I have.
    I live 30 minutes from it (I will use that in future debates).

    Fact is, Roger Maris is deserving of the Hall of Fame.
    Like it or not.

    (I am prepared for a "Zues-style" debate here.)

  3. #13
    BadlandsVikings's Avatar
    BadlandsVikings is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    "Zeus" wrote:
    "NDVikingFan66" wrote:
    Speaking of Hall of Fame....it is time Roger Maris gets in, and he gets the record back
    http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/faq.htm#maris

    Why isn't Roger Maris in the Hall of Fame?

    Roger Maris first became eligible for induction into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1974. According to the rules of election, Maris was eligible for consideration by the Baseball Writers' Association (BBWAA) of America for fifteen years. During that span of time, Maris garnered a considerable number of votes, though never more than the 75% required for induction. In 1992, after a required three-year wait following the BBWAA voting period, Maris became eligible for consideration for induction by the Hall of Fame Committee on Baseball Veterans. At this time, Roger Maris remains eligible for consideration by the Hall of Fame Committee on Baseball Veterans, but not the BBWAA.

    While Mr. Maris is not currently a member of the Hall of Fame, he is well represented in the Museum. Many artifacts from his career are part of the Museum collection. Both the bat and ball from his record-breaking 61st home run of the 1961 season are on display here at the Museum.
    And his career stats:
    12 Seasons


    1463 Games
    5101 ABs
    826 Runs
    1325 Hits
    195 Doubles, 42 Triples, 275 HRs,
    851 RBIs
    .260 BA,
    .345 OBA,

    .476 Slugging


    By no stretch of the imagination are those Hall-of-Fame caliber numbers.

    =Z=
    Here we go with the lameass "numbers" arguement.

    Bill Mazeroski is in the fricken Hall because of his defense.
    His career numbers are not all that great and he was never an MVP.
    He was part of 2 World Series winning teams.
    It's compete BS that Maris is not in the Hall of Fame.
    He broke the most famous record in all of sports...and he held it for a long time before some beef-roid junkie broke the damn thing!

    Maris:

    -Record 61 homeruns in 1961
    -2 time MVP
    -4 time All Star
    -Gold Glove in 1960
    -Career Fielding %: .982
    -Holds New York Yankees single season record for Home Runs (61 in 1961)
    -Seven World Series (1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1968)
    -3 World Series Championships
    -Six World Series Home Runs
    -And a good flippin' person!

    Bill Mazeroski

    -7 time All Star
    -8 Gold Gloves
    -3 World Series
    -2 World Series Championships

    You cannot compare stats because Maris player 12 seasons and Mazeroski played 17.
    The whole notion of "numbers" is dumb.
    If you want to look at numbers you have to look at average per season.

    Maris
    Seasons:
    12
    Hits:
    1325
    (110 avg. per season)
    Runs:
    826
    (69 avg. per season)
    2B:
    195
    (16 avg. per season)
    HR:
    275
    (23 avg. per season)
    RBI:
    851
    (71 avg. per season)
    Batting Avg.:
    .260

    Mazeroski
    Seasons:
    17
    Hits:
    2016
    (119 avg. per season)
    Runs:
    769
    (45 avg. per season)
    2B:
    294
    (17 avg. per season)
    HR:
    138
    (8 avg. per season)
    RBI:
    853
    (50 avg. per season)
    Batting Avg.:
    .260

    See, it's total bull that the Veterans Committee picked Mazeroski over Maris!
    Yes, Maz had a great glove, but so did Maris even though he did not win as many Gold Gloves.
    As far as "numbers" the 2 most important numbers are Runs and RBI's...and Maris has the edge there.

    It's just a shame that Maris is not in the HoF.
    It is an embarrassment to the game of baseball that a star like Maris is not in there.
    He has the awards and the rings!
    Plus...he is from Minnesota!

    This is the first and last time I will argue with you.
    The only claim Minnesota has to him is he was born there..but he grew up playing sports in Grand Forks and Fargo.
    He's NOT from Minnesota.

  4. #14
    ultravikingfan's Avatar
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "BadlandsViking" wrote:
    This is the first and last time I will argue with you.
    The only claim Minnesota has to him is he was born there..but he grew up playing sports in Grand Forks and Fargo.
    He's NOT from Minnesota.
    No arguements here.
    The only reason I wrote what I did is because if I put that people would jump all over me saying he is from MN.
    I grew up in Fargo and know all well about him.
    I played at Roger Maris Field on the north side and have viewed all his memorabilia at West Acres.

  5. #15
    jdvike's Avatar
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "vikingivan" wrote:
    Frank Thomas often put the big hurt on the Twins.
    The Big Hurt has hit exactly one tenth, (that is 50 for any Packer fans looking on) of his homers against us.
    Let us not Forget that Craig Biggio also got his 3000 hit last night.
    I wonder how much the guy that caught the ball will get for it?
    He got a ball, autographed jersey and bat from Frank Thomas after the game because he was willing to give Frank the ball, rather than try to reap personal profit from it.

    Classy move on that guy's part.

    =Z=
    rather than try to reap personal profit from it.
    Because the Big Hurt (or is that the Big Pain?)has never done that in his career :


    Classy move on that guy's part.
    Yes very classy(or stupid?), for a low class ball player :P

    If Frank had any class at all, he would've offered the guy something more than a worthless Blow Jays jersey, bat and ball.....I heard numbers of the worth of that ball to be in the neighborhood of 50 G's....come on big Frank....I'm sure you have more coin than that poor guy appeared to have...you should be ashamed of yourself!!....be thankful that I didnt catch that ball......You can call me no class, or low class, but wait until I get back from the Bank.

    I saw the guy being interviewed, and he was wearing a Twins shirt....why would he want a Jays jersey?....I think the guy got boned.....JMHO of course.

  6. #16
    Zeus's Avatar
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    If it is stat driven, why is Maz in there?  For 8 Gold Gloves?  Come on!  Then Sandberg should be in there as well.  But most doubt he will. 
    Umm - Ryne Sandberg was inducted into the MLB Hall of Fame in 2005.

    http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/sandberg_ryne.htm

    I don't know who these "most" people who you get your information from are, but they're obviously not very smart, and I would recommend you stop hanging out with them.

    And Roberto Alomar has the most GG's at 2nd, do you think he will be in there?
    It is not outside the realm of possibility that Roberto Alomar and his career .300 average, 10 Gold Gloves and .984 fielding percentage will be elected to the HoF.

    You also forgot 1 key element when you linked those other players...World Series!
    Barfield - Never got there
    Allsion - 1 appearance, 0 rings
    Nicholson - 1 appearance, 0 rings
    Sauer - Never got there
    Buhner - Never got there
    Palmer - Never got there
    Armas - 1 appearance, 0 rings (had 1 lousy at bat where is K'd)
    Davis - 1 appearance, 1 ring
    Tartabull - Never got there
    Dye - 2 appearances, 1 ring.

    Why even bring up Dye?  He is still fricken playing, he could make the Hall.

    Only 1 of those players was an MVP and did it once: Sauer.
    I didn't bring up ANY of those players outside of Baseball Reference's career statistics comparison.  It was those people who, via their statistical models, chose the 10 most relevant players, based on the career statistics, and made the comparison.  I thought it was interesting and relevant to the discussion, so I linked to it.

    As to the WS appearances, there are TONS of NYY players over the years who went to and won multiple World Series rings but who are not hall-of-fame worthy.  It's irrelevant, as is the MVP thing.  Dale Murphy won 2 MVP awards for the Braves in the early 80s and he's not in the HoF (and, because I actually know some "most" who aren't stupid, it's not likely that he will get in - he got only 50 (9.2%) votes in the 2007 election).

    Your arguement is funny.  You try and justify your case by introducing 2 things that has no bearing on this:
    1.  European or Asian or South American
    Did you even READ my post?  You made the ludicrous claim that the single-season HR record is the "most famous record in all of sports" and I brought up other NON-AMERICAN countries to point out the fallacy in your statement.  You might believe that sports in the USA are the end-all of sporting events on Planet Earth, but you would be wrong.

    2.  And the fact that you have been to the HoF

    What does this have to do with this?  Not a fucking thing.  Have you been to the Pro Football Hall of Fame?  If you have, have you been there 5 times?  I have.  I live 30 minutes from it (I will use that in future debates).
    Again - I wonder if you actually read my post or just skimmed it while you foamed at the mouth and started to formulate your reply.  I brought up that I have been to the HoF not to debunk anything about Maris' potential candidacy in the HoF, but, rather (as I wrote) to show that his 1961 record-breaking season is well represented in Cooperstown.  I'm sure you, based on your visits to Canton, could tell me about artifacts at that esteemed museum of which I do not know, since I've never been there myself.

    Fact is, Roger Maris is deserving of the Hall of Fame.  Like it or not.

    (I am prepared for a "Zues-style" debate here.)
    LOL.  You say "Fact is" and then follow it with your opinion.  That's hilarious.  I guess you're used to shoving your opinion down the throats of weak people who won't stand up to your Hammer and point out the various issues with what you've written.

    Well - in this post your VERY FIRST POINT was WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

    The FACT is - Maris's achievements and stats could not garner him election from either the writers or the Veteran's Committee.  Based on statistical comparisons with other palyers, his numbers clearly do not stand up.  His amazing season in 1961 is Hall-of-Fame worthy and is duly noted and celebrated in the Hall.  But his career results are not even close to the standard for inclusion in the HoF.

    I'll wait here while you come up with some more stuff that's just plain wrong or full of bluster with no substance.  I await your next blustery blow with my sails ready to go.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  7. #17
    ultravikingfan's Avatar
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    If it is stat driven, why is Maz in there?
    For 8 Gold Gloves?
    Come on!
    Then Sandberg should be in there as well.
    But most doubt he will.
    Umm - Ryne Sandberg was inducted into the MLB Hall of Fame in 2005.

    http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/sandberg_ryne.htm

    I don't know who these "most" people who you get your information from are, but they're obviously not very smart, and I would recommend you stop hanging out with them.

    And Roberto Alomar has the most GG's at 2nd, do you think he will be in there?
    It is not outside the realm of possibility that Roberto Alomar and his career .300 average, 10 Gold Gloves and .984 fielding percentage will be elected to the HoF.

    You also forgot 1 key element when you linked those other players...World Series!
    Barfield - Never got there
    Allsion - 1 appearance, 0 rings
    Nicholson - 1 appearance, 0 rings
    Sauer - Never got there
    Buhner - Never got there
    Palmer - Never got there
    Armas - 1 appearance, 0 rings (had 1 lousy at bat where is K'd)
    Davis - 1 appearance, 1 ring
    Tartabull - Never got there
    Dye - 2 appearances, 1 ring.

    Why even bring up Dye?
    He is still fricken playing, he could make the Hall.

    Only 1 of those players was an MVP and did it once: Sauer.
    I didn't bring up ANY of those players outside of Baseball Reference's career statistics comparison.
    It was those people who, via their statistical models, chose the 10 most relevant players, based on the career statistics, and made the comparison.
    I thought it was interesting and relevant to the discussion, so I linked to it.

    As to the WS appearances, there are TONS of NYY players over the years who went to and won multiple World Series rings but who are not hall-of-fame worthy.
    It's irrelevant, as is the MVP thing.
    Dale Murphy won 2 MVP awards for the Braves in the early 80s and he's not in the HoF (and, because I actually know some "most" who aren't stupid, it's not likely that he will get in - he got only 50 (9.2%) votes in the 2007 election).

    Your arguement is funny.
    You try and justify your case by introducing 2 things that has no bearing on this:
    1.
    European or Asian or South American
    Did you even READ my post?
    You made the ludicrous claim that the single-season HR record is the "most famous record in all of sports" and I brought up other NON-AMERICAN countries to point out the fallacy in your statement.
    You might believe that sports in the USA are the end-all of sporting events on Planet Earth, but you would be wrong.

    2.
    And the fact that you have been to the HoF

    What does this have to do with this?
    Not a fucking thing.
    Have you been to the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
    If you have, have you been there 5 times?
    I have.
    I live 30 minutes from it (I will use that in future debates).
    Again - I wonder if you actually read my post or just skimmed it while you foamed at the mouth and started to formulate your reply.
    I brought up that I have been to the HoF not to debunk anything about Maris' potential candidacy in the HoF, but, rather (as I wrote) to show that his 1961 record-breaking season is well represented in Cooperstown.
    I'm sure you, based on your visits to Canton, could tell me about artifacts at that esteemed museum of which I do not know, since I've never been there myself.

    Fact is, Roger Maris is deserving of the Hall of Fame.
    Like it or not.

    (I am prepared for a "Zues-style" debate here.)
    LOL.
    You say "Fact is" and then follow it with your opinion.
    That's hilarious.
    I guess you're used to shoving your opinion down the throats of weak people who won't stand up to your Hammer and point out the various issues with what you've written.

    Well - in this post your VERY FIRST POINT was WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

    The FACT is - Maris's achievements and stats could not garner him election from either the writers or the Veteran's Committee.
    Based on statistical comparisons with other palyers, his numbers clearly do not stand up.
    His amazing season in 1961 is Hall-of-Fame worthy and is duly noted and celebrated in the Hall.
    But his career results are not even close to the standard for inclusion in the HoF.

    I'll wait here while you come up with some more stuff that's just plain wrong or full of bluster with no substance.
    I await your next blustery blow with my sails ready to go.

    =Z=
    LMAO!
    Great post!
    It really solidifies your position here at PP.O and the reputation that you quickly gaining.
    Maybe I should just stick to modding the site instead of posting in it?

    Ok, my bad on Sandberg.
    That was a major fuck-up by me.
    I read about baseball quite often and I used to really follow the game.
    I was careless with that one and you caught me with.

    Yes, Alomar may get in there and he may not...who knows.
    Maybe the voters will hold the spitting incident against him and people can only speculate as to why he did not get in.

    The MVP and WS thing is not irrelevant.
    Maris was a huge contributor to the WS teams.
    Yes many other Yankees have rings but they did not have such an impact on baseball as did Roger Maris.
    Dale Murphy did not have that much of an impact on baseball as did Maris.
    His team sucked ass and that is what is hurting him.
    I remember a quote by Murphy one year, "this would be a great time to paint the seats".
    If Murphy played for a team who was not pathetic, he would garner more votes.

    Ok, when most people talk about "all of sports" they mainly refer to USA sports.
    You hear it a lot of ESPN and other sports broadcasts and shows.
    I guess I will need to add a disclaimer to all my posts now so picky-ass people (like you) have a clue.

    Because Maris is well represented in the HoF means what?
    Nothing.
    He needs to be a member, not an exhibit there.


    Again, I guess it's all about career stats.
    That's total bullshit.
    Maris does deserve to be in the Hall of Fame not because of his stats, but because of the contribution he made the baseball and the importance of what he did.


    On another subject....Bert needs to be in there as well.

    There. did I blow your sails good enough?
    I hope so.

  8. #18
    Zeus's Avatar
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    Re: Thomas Hits HR #500; Then Gets Tossed

    "ultravikingfan" wrote:
    LMAO!
    Great post!
    It really solidifies your position here at PP.O and the reputation that you quickly gaining.
    Maybe I should just stick to modding the site instead of posting in it?
    Ooooo...I'm gaining a rep!
    Outstanding!

    Ok, my bad on Sandberg.
    That was a major fuck-up by me.
    I read about baseball quite often and I used to really follow the game.
    I was careless with that one and you caught me with.
    Unfortunately for you on that one is this item - Ryne Sandberg is my all-time favorite baseball player.
    Kinda like me saying something inaccurate about CC with you!

    There. did I blow your sails good enough?
    I hope so.
    'Twas fun while it lasted.
    One of those great debate subjects.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

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