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  1. #1
    COJOMAY is offline Jersey Retired
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    Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    [size=18px]University of North Dakota: Sioux tribes support nickname[/size]
    BLAKE NICHOLSON
    Associated Press

    The University of North Dakota says it now has the backing of both Sioux tribes in the state to continue using its "Fighting Sioux" nickname. The chairman of one of the tribes disputes that.

    UND's announcement Thursday came one day before the NCAA was expected to rule on the school's appeal to continue using the Sioux nickname in postseason play. UND is among several schools with nicknames or mascots the NCAA considers "hostile and abusive." The NCAA wants to bar those schools from hosting postseason games unless they get rid of the American Indian imagery.

    UND released a letter written to the NCAA by Archie Fool Bear, chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe's judicial committee. Fool Bear said six of the eight districts on the reservation have voted "overwhelmingly" to support the Grand Forks school's use of the nickname.

    Fool Bear wrote the letter, which was dated Wednesday, to Bernard W. Franklin, the NCAA's senior vice president for governance and membership.

    "During a recent visit to the University of North Dakota, we as the Judicial Committee did not observe any abusive or derogatory comments or remarks concerning Native Americans," the letter said, "and we do not believe that there is credible evidence of 'hostile and abusive' treatment as reported by the NCAA but rather an environment of respect and honor shown to our heritage and culture along with a zero tolerance policy dealing with racism."

    Standing Rock Chairman Ron His Horse Is Thunder sent a letter to Franklin on Thursday, saying the tribe "maintains its stance opposing the 'Fighting Sioux' athletic nickname and logo."

    His Horse Is Thunder said the judicial committee can only make recommendations to the Tribal Council, and he said Fool Bear in the past has unsuccessfully tried to sway the council toward supporting the nickname.

    Fool Bear said in an interview Thursday that the support of the tribe is not official until the Tribal Council acts on the matter next week.

    "We've heard both sides of the issue. The people of this tribe have heard both sides of the issue," he said. "The majority are saying our Tribal Council should be in support."

    UND President Charles Kupchella acknowledged that a Tribal Council vote was pending, but said in an interview that Fool Bear's letter is enough "to indicate that we have the will of the people."

    He said the fact that six of the tribe's eight districts support the nickname is "huge," and there is "an expectation that the Tribal Council would reflect this view."

    Vernon Bellecourt, a Minnesota American Indian activist and president of the National Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media, said he was shocked by Fool Bear's letter.

    "To take a referendum on racism is just totally outrageous," he said.

    Kupchella said in a letter to Franklin on Thursday that Spirit Lake Sioux tribal leaders who visited the campus also have given support. The Tribal Council members "indicated they stand by the resolution passed by the Tribal Council in the year 2000," he said.

    The 2000 resolution said the tribe would support the nickname as long as UND worked to establish tolerance and fight racism.

    A woman who answered the phone at the Spirit Lake headquarters on Thursday said all tribal officers were gone for the day, attending a funeral.

    The NCAA is scheduled to rule on the appeals of four schools, including UND, on Friday. It is the second and final appeal for UND.

    Some schools, including Florida State, have won appeals because they have the support of tribes to use their nickname. Kupchella said in an interview that he expects the same treatment for UND.

    "They (the NCAA) put a great deal of emphasis on the permission from the namesake tribes," he said.

    Kupchella said the support of a tribe "kind of takes out the argument that there's anything hostile or abusive, which seems to be the thing they pin this whole thing on."

    Bob Williams, a spokesman for the NCAA in Indianapolis, said "There is significant weight given to the documented approval of a sovereign namesake tribe." However, he said the NCAA also considers other factors, including the environment on campus and how the Indian imagery is used.

    His Horse Is Thunder, in his letter, said the Standing Rock tribe "supports the NCAA decision to bar the use of Native American tribal names in post season games by colleges and universities."

    Some UND faculty members and alumni, including Los Angeles Lakers coach Phil Jackson, have spoken against the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. Jackson told a Colorado newspaper recently that it should be changed because enough people find it offensive.

    Another UND graduate, Don Morrison of Bismarck, said more than 200 alumni have signed a petition against the nickname. In February, more than 100 UND faculty members signed a petition saying it should be retired.

    Morrison said Thursday that he and other alumni who oppose the nickname will continue their efforts regardless of any official stance by a tribe.

    "It is hostile. It is abusive. And there are lots of Native Americans who are opposed to it," he said.

    If the NCAA still rejects UND's appeal, Kupchella said the university would consult with the state Board of Higher Education about possible legal action.

    Kupchella also said UND is working to establish an endowment to help bring more American Indian students to campus, and an announcement is expected next week. He said the decision was made after Standing Rock and Spirit Lake officials visited the UND campus, but that it is not tied to the nickname issue.

    "I would not accept a donation from a donor who would make a condition," Kupchella said. "We're trying to set up an unconditional endowment to support Sioux Indian students."

    Bellecourt called the endowment plan "a ploy" to win support for the nickname. "They should have been doing that before," he said.

    Fool Bear, in his letter to Franklin, lauded UND's efforts to help Indian students.
    Kentucky Vikes Fan

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  2. #2
    ViKing24's Avatar
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    Good news my brother goes to UND and i am a fan of the sioux and I don't get why they got so upset. I mean their is alot of Irish and they don't get upset of the fighting irish. I just don't get it. Good news. Plus they are getting free tuition for the sioux up their for the name.


    Formerly Viking24

  3. #3
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    Good!

  4. #4
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    It's about time, the name being racist is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I am orriginally from ND and have alot of Indian friend, none of the had a problem with it, they all though it being racist was stupid too.

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    FedjeViking is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    About time! Good for them.
    [move]"Our day WILL come!! I just hope I LIVE long enough to see it!"[/move]

  6. #6
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    If you don't get the problem, then how are you going to gauge the cultural experience of other people and what their reactions to it should or should not be. Of course not everyone has a problem with this, but that does not mean you can discount and whizzinator upon people who never had a say in anything.

    You know, I live in Oregon and I am constantly amazed when I drive past Intel and Nike campuses and into downtown Portland and think about how none of this was here +-200 years ago. In that time, an entire Civilization of tribes of people who lived here for over 15,000 years were wiped out. I'm not blaming anyone, or saying that progress is bad.

    I'm just saying. Let the people have a say in how we use the names of their ghost of a once great Civilization. Do you have to complain even at that request?

  7. #7
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    "OregonViking" wrote:
    If you don't get the problem, then how are you going to gauge the cultural experience of other people and what their reactions to it should or should not be. Of course not everyone has a problem with this, but that does not mean you can discount and whizzinator upon people who never had a say in anything.

    You know, I live in Oregon and I am constantly amazed when I drive past Intel and Nike campuses and into downtown Portland and think about how none of this was here +-200 years ago. In that time, an entire Civilization of tribes of people who lived here for over 15,000 years were wiped out. I'm not blaming anyone, or saying that progress is bad.

    I'm just saying. Let the people have a say in how we use the names of their ghost of a once great Civilization. Do you have to complain even at that request?
    You could find a problem with any team name if you really wanted too....Vikings, Pirates, Buccaneers they all pillaged and killed people. Chicago Bulls(Bulls gore people)....Miami Hurricanes(Hurricanes are destructive to people)...do i need to go on?

  8. #8
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    "OregonViking" wrote:
    If you don't get the problem, then how are you going to gauge the cultural experience of other people and what their reactions to it should or should not be. Of course not everyone has a problem with this, but that does not mean you can discount and whizzinator upon people who never had a say in anything.

    You know, I live in Oregon and I am constantly amazed when I drive past Intel and Nike campuses and into downtown Portland and think about how none of this was here +-200 years ago. In that time, an entire Civilization of tribes of people who lived here for over 15,000 years were wiped out. I'm not blaming anyone, or saying that progress is bad.

    I'm just saying. Let the people have a say in how we use the names of their ghost of a once great Civilization. Do you have to complain even at that request?
    Does this mean that USC must get permission from the people of Troy to use their image as a mascot (Trojans). And, being Irish, should I be consulted as to my personal feelings about the use of my heritage as a symbol for Notre Dame?

    No...that's just being silly.

    In fact, this entire debate is silly. No one takes a self-depreciating mascot. Even the "Mighty Ducks of Aneheim" didn't take the name because they thought it made them sound whimpy...they did it because they were Disney funded.

    People select mascots for exactly the opposite reason...the mascot has a trait or feature that the school/team hopes to emulate. In short, it should be considered an HONOR to have your tribe/culture'etc selected as a mascot.

    In America, we obviously have too little to worry about. After all, we can tie up the courts with the question of the Pledge of Alliegence, "In God We Trust", and school mascots. I'm waiting for the day that a series of loud popping sounds reverberate throughout the US...that'll be the day that all of these people who spend so much time being "offended" pull their collective heads out of their posteriors.

    If anyone HONESTLY believes that the Fighting Sioux is meant to be derogatory or offensive towards the Sioux people, please step up and educate us. Me, I think it's all a bunch of bunk.

    And, finally, there were no "great civilizations" here...not really. There were loose conglomerations of nomads, organized around clan lines, who would constantly fight over better hunting grounds and resources with the stronger puching the weaker out (And often killing/enslaving them in the process). They spent hundreds of years kicking each other around until the Anglos (a much stronger tribe) showed up and took it all away. The same thing has happened throughout history since the dawn of time. Romanticising it doesn't make it more significant than it was.

    Caine

  9. #9
    NDVikingFan66's Avatar
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    Here is a letter I sent to President Brand of the NCAA shortly after the NCAA issued their rediculous ruling:

    President Brand:

    I understand you have probably taken a ton of mail on both sides of this particular subject, but I cannot sit idly by and see this kind of poor decision making in progress and do nothing. I am one voice, and I plan to exercise it in any way that I can to speak out against your recent ruling. In addition, I have a set of ears, and a sound mind, and will also do my best about learning the rationale behind the decision and to understand the motivating factors that lead to it.

    It appears that the names that were singled out were the names associated with the Native American race. One of those institutions, Home of the SIOUX, was the University of North Dakota, my alma mater. I have seen this argument go on for quite some time, and you will always find people on both sides of the fence. However, I will state, that at one point in my young life, I had 3 friends that were Native American, and none of them had a problem with the nickname.

    Now, let me move on with a couple of other points.

    1. Duke Blue Devils - I am a Catholic, and send both my daughters to a private Catholic High School and Middle School. I find the use of Devils offensive to my Catholic and Christian background.

    2. Notre Dame Fighting Irish - Though I am not Irish, I refer to my Catholic upbringing as finding the Irish always fighting. The typical stereotype applied to the Irish is "drunk and hostile."

    3. Western Washington Vikings – This is a reference to the fighting people of Scandinavia, though the term is only used when they went on the raiding parties, something I imagine was pretty hostile and offensive back in the day and age. As a sidebar, my favorite football team is the Minnesota Vikings. I have been to games in the past, and watched many, many games on TV, and if I were Scandinavian, I would be offended by the use of this nickname.

    4. Connecticut Huskies – Though this is often referred to as a dog, I have in turn heard this term applied to “large” people. As a individual who is 6’6”, and in the past weighed as much as 310 lbs, you can see how I would find this offensive. As long as you are attempting sweeping changes of society, do you think you could get society to stop referring to “large” people as “husky”?

    Now, you may read this letter and think that I have really stretched to make my point in some cases, and I will admit that maybe I have. However, my true point was that no matter what, you will have people on both sides of the fence on any given issue. The NCAA, Federal Government, activists, will never satisfy everyone. I think it is time for the NCAAA to focus on real issues, not ones that should be left to the local levels.

    For example:
    1. Are we ever going to have a true National Champion in Division I Football?
    2. How are we going to control out of control athletic budgets?
    3. Are we doing everything we can to make sure our institutions are turning out well rounded, educated student athletes?
    4. What can we do to properly educate our institutions and student athletes to understand the cultural diversity that exists in the United States, and beyond?

    The NCAA has not forced teams to change their nicknames, they have instead taken the high road and told schools they will not be allowed to host Championship Events. It is this kind of vague direction that will never make both sides of this equation happy.

    Here is a quote pulled from my local paper, the Fargo Forum.
    While the NCAA decision is a step in the right direction, it does nothing to resolve the human rights issue, said Joely De La Torre, associate professor of public administration at California State University, San Bernardino.
    She is president of Naqmayam Communications, an American Indian public relations agency, and a member of the Luiseńo tribe in Temecula, Calif.
    “It’s a nice gesture, but that’s basically what it is because it has no teeth,” De La Torre said.
    The NCAA hasn’t defined what’s offensive, she said, and it won’t apply to all teams or use of derogatory names during the regular season.
    De La Torre said mascots depicting African American or Asian American communities would not be tolerated, but American Indian icons are because the population is small.
    “We’re not the caricatures they portray us to be,” she said. “You have far too many Americans rationalizing that they’re honoring us” with derogatory monikers.
    If universities want to honor American Indians, they should meet with tribal nations, leaders and activists to find a way that is appealing and representative of who American Indians are today.
    “These are institutions of higher education. They should know better. Shame on them for perpetuating these stereotypes,” she said.
    As you can see, even she is unhappy with your ruling, as you have not requested teams stop using the nickname, just told them they could no longer host any Championship Events.
    Now, I am sure that every facility thinks they have a top notch facility to host post-season play, but the Ralph Englestad Arena at the University of North Dakota is a world class facility to host hockey. At a price tag of over $100 Million, nothing was left out of these facilities. In this facility, there are a large number of Indian heads, and it would be ridiculous to have them removed or covered up.
    The University of North Dakota does not have a mascot, nor are there students who attend sporting events in Native American Headdress or Native American paint. However, I am curious if they were to have a mascot, and he did dress up as a Sioux going to war, and he was Native American, would this be viewed as offensive? Students at the University of North Dakota do not do the war chant or the tomahawk chop as the fans of the Atlanta Braves do.

    Now at some point, maybe I could be convinced that the argument the NCAA and others make speaking out against the use of Native American logos and mascots. However, with the vague, toothless statement made by your organization in the recent days, I find more humor and weak attempts at pandering to both sides of an argument that just cannot be won.

    Thank you for your time

  10. #10
    purplepride818 is offline Starter
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    Re: Sioux Tribes approve UND Name

    "Caine" wrote:
    "OregonViking" wrote:
    If you don't get the problem, then how are you going to gauge the cultural experience of other people and what their reactions to it should or should not be. Of course not everyone has a problem with this, but that does not mean you can discount and whizzinator upon people who never had a say in anything.

    You know, I live in Oregon and I am constantly amazed when I drive past Intel and Nike campuses and into downtown Portland and think about how none of this was here +-200 years ago. In that time, an entire Civilization of tribes of people who lived here for over 15,000 years were wiped out. I'm not blaming anyone, or saying that progress is bad.

    I'm just saying. Let the people have a say in how we use the names of their ghost of a once great Civilization. Do you have to complain even at that request?
    Does this mean that USC must get permission from the people of Troy to use their image as a mascot (Trojans). And, being Irish, should I be consulted as to my personal feelings about the use of my heritage as a symbol for Notre Dame?

    No...that's just being silly.

    In fact, this entire debate is silly. No one takes a self-depreciating mascot. Even the "Mighty Ducks of Aneheim" didn't take the name because they thought it made them sound whimpy...they did it because they were Disney funded.

    People select mascots for exactly the opposite reason...the mascot has a trait or feature that the school/team hopes to emulate. In short, it should be considered an HONOR to have your tribe/culture'etc selected as a mascot.

    In America, we obviously have too little to worry about. After all, we can tie up the courts with the question of the Pledge of Alliegence, "In God We Trust", and school mascots. I'm waiting for the day that a series of loud popping sounds reverberate throughout the US...that'll be the day that all of these people who spend so much time being "offended" pull their collective heads out of their posteriors.

    If anyone HONESTLY believes that the Fighting Sioux is meant to be derogatory or offensive towards the Sioux people, please step up and educate us. Me, I think it's all a bunch of bunk.

    And, finally, there were no "great civilizations" here...not really. There were loose conglomerations of nomads, organized around clan lines, who would constantly fight over better hunting grounds and resources with the stronger puching the weaker out (And often killing/enslaving them in the process). They spent hundreds of years kicking each other around until the Anglos (a much stronger tribe) showed up and took it all away. The same thing has happened throughout history since the dawn of time. Romanticising it doesn't make it more significant than it was.

    Caine
    took the words out of my mouth. and most of the people that say it is offensive to indians arent even indians. i remember an article i read about the people getting upset about FSU seminoles name and they were mostly rich old white people who thought they should change their name, but the seminole tribe actually considered it a great honor to have an major college's team named after there tribe. people just have nothing better to do nowadays but complain about everything when half the time they dont even know what there talking about.

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