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Thread: The New Pope

  1. #21
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    Re: The New Pope

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    Doesn't God make the rules for the Catholic church?
    I know some people get defensive of their long held beliefs, and I don't mean to raise a raucous, but a faith that is supposedly based on the Bible should have doctrines in harmony with the Bible.

    A Requirement of Priestly celebacy, for instance, is unbiblical:

    1ÂÂ*Timothy 4:1-3: “The Spirit distinctly says that in later times some will turn away from the faith and will heed deceitful spirits and things taught by demons through plausible liars—men with seared consciences who forbid marriage

    A number of the apostles, including Peter (Cephas), were married men (Acts 4:13; 1Co 9:5). Clearly it was not God's intent to prevent the marriage of religious leaders. Why would man take it upon himself to overstep God's law?

    I suppose Webby would appreciate further discussions on this via PM.

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  2. #22
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    Re: The New Pope

    SKOL:

    I tend to believe as you do. As a born and raised Catholic, I tend to be more of a conservative when it comes to Church doctrine, but I also believe that, in order to survive, the Catholic church must also change and grow. Also, I believe that it is time to have married priests, and women as priests. A man can devote himself fully to God and still be married, in my opinion. And it's about time women play greater, more important and more vital roles in the Catholic Church. I admit I'm not much of a daily bible reader, but where in the bible does it say that church leaders must be men? Does God discriminate against women? I hope not.

    /end of rant
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  3. #23
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: The New Pope

    They are not upset they are dissapointed. Dissapointed that such a conventional Pope was selected. They were hoping for a reform on issues like Birth Control use and marriage. They believe the changes are coming and they hoped this would be the Pope to do.

    Apparently there is no chance of this happening under him. I do not have an opinion on wether they should make these steps. All I know is it is a pretty hot topic in my area. Or was until that particular pope was selected.

    I have no opinion on that Pope either and he knows what is best for your church. I just found it interesting that is all.

  4. #24
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: The New Pope

    From what I understand Women cannot hold the priesthood. They are just as valuable to God as men but isn't that why they are not allowed to serve the same?

    I too belive that marrige is a gift of god and something all should partake in.


    This has nothing to do with anything just something i find extreemly interesting.....


    http://www.crystalinks.com/papalprophecies.html

    Particularly the last three.....
    8. The Labor of the Son. JOHN PAUL II. 1978-2005. Pope John Paul II was the most traveled Pope in history. He circled the globe numerous times, preaching to huge audiences everywhere he went. He survived an assassination attempt. He has written a book which has enjoyed a large circulation. Like the sun which never ceases to labor and provides light daily, this Pope has been incessant. He was born on May 18, 1920. On that date in the morning there was a near total eclipse of the sun over Europe. Prophecy - The 110th Pope is "De Labore Solis" (Of the Solar Eclipse, or, From the Toil of the Sun). Like the sun he came out of the East (Poland).

    9. The Glory of the Olive. The Order of St. Benedict has said this Pope will come from their order. It is interesting that Jesus gave his apocalyptic prophecy about the end of time from the Mount of Olives. This Pope will reign during the beginning of the tribulation Jesus spoke of. The 111th prophesy is "Gloria Olivae" (The Glory of the Olive). The Order of Saint Benedict has claimed that this pope will come from their ranks. Saint Benedict himself prophesied that before the end of the world his Order, known also as the Olivetans, will triumphantly lead the Catholic Church in its fight against evil.

    10. PETER THE ROMAN - This final Pope will likely be Satan, taking the form of a man named Peter who will gain a worldwide allegiance and adoration. He will be the final antichrist which prophecy students have long foretold. If it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived. The 112th prophesy states: "In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church there will reign Petrus Romanus, who will feed his flock amid many tribulations; after which the seven-hilled city will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people. The End."

    Malachy's final words, "Rome, the seat of the Vatican, will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people."

  5. #25
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    Re: The New Pope

    skol:

    i offer you and answer yo your challenge. ..."but a faith that is supposedly based on the Bible should have doctrines in harmony with the Bible."...
    -using biblical exegesis and systematic logic Lets hash out some issues here. I believe the doctrines are biblical. Bishop fulton once said that only 100 people truly hate the church, the rest just do not understand. So let me share some understanding

    About the Priest celbacy thing; the apostle paul speaks about how for some people the married life isnt the preferred life, in that they can serve God as single men and women who are celebate. marriage isnt banned, its only prohibited in the priesthood. and i can tell you for me, even if the church allowed me to marry and be a priest, i would choose to not have a family, and be married to God instead.Why? let me give an example. Im in a pastoral leadership class that teaches of the struggles in being a pastor. At least 80% of the struggles involve balancing total commitment to the church as the shepard and a family. I am not saying that one cant be a christian and be married. I personally am engaged. Im saying that as the lead pastor/priest then you will struggle with serving 2 masters. leaving both feeling depraved. So there is logical reasoning in this practice. (which is not a doctrine btw)

    about your exegesis, friend,it's dealing with the Gnostics.Priests make that oath voluntarily, no one forces them to become priests.a true example of a group forbidding marriage would be the Cartharists

    yea, marriage and all foods are good. priests not being able to marry in the priesthood does not mean marriage is not good. it means that, as servants of the lord, one is fully concentrated on the lord, and does not have a family. you are married to God not to earthly people. that would mean that the church totally forbids anyone to get married, and forbids certain foods forever.in one way this gay marriage thing is one aspect of this issue.......because the concept of marriage is slowly disintigrating but the church doesnt forbid all marriage. it asks that its priest live celebately. one chooses to become a priest and to live that life if they feel it is for them. or, one can feel married life is Gods calling for them
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  6. #26
    Del Rio Guest

    Re: The New Pope

    What is the basic belief in the after life in regards to being a priest? I mean if you are married to God would you be exhalted to a higher degree then someone that chooses not to focus 100% on the lord and marry instead?

    Or does that bond end with death and all you years of sacrafice put you on par with others that love the lord, and yet chose to marry?

    Obvioulsy my religion does believe in degree's of heaven. I do not think the Catholic religion does. But this is a curious thing to me. When a priest dies and goes to heaven does the church believe he is on equal ground as Bob the devout Catholic from down the street who has been married? Obviously it would be folly for the church to say No so strongly and alienate the majority of it's members. But does the payoff end here on earth, or continue into heaven?

  7. #27
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    Re: The New Pope

    woman as priests...always a sticky issue..let me try to explain from different views..

    If I sound repetative im sorry, just tryin to say the same thing from different angles..actually,as a protestant I always thought woman should never be the lead pastor..simply because they would never get the respect the deserve and need to lead a church
    at the last super who was there?Christ's apostles who happen to be all men. . .in every other instance Christ's mother was ALWAYS presentexcept at this meal when Christ gave the church the Eucharistif Christ did not give the power to change bread and wine to his own mother then why would he deem is right to have women priests?

    Christ was certainly not against women, correct?
    Like, he wasn't anti-feminist.
    And He wasn't afraid to break social norm i.e. eating with sinners and tax collectors.
    But, He only chose men to carry on His teaching as Apostles. Anyways, I believe that women have a special place in the Church (way beyond cleaning or cooking and stuff) but throughout Jewish and Christian history, men have been the priests. God must have some reason for it, and so I accept that.

    jesus appointed male apostles, and these apostles ordained men only. they did not ordain women. throughout biblical history from abraham issac and jacob moses to jesus and the popes, one continuous line of male priests have lead the faith
    so tradition, or is there some reason?
    well look at that tradition tho. did God even once make a woman priest? abraham issac jacob moses josuah jesus peter ect, men have lead the faiththis doesnt mean women dont have a place in church just not in the priesthood
    the catholic church has spoken and said on the issue of women priests, it does not have the power to change this(even if it wanted to...she cant)
    why did it make it a doctrine because its been a doctrine for the last 6000 years. the catholic church just put it on paper
    -------
    Can women be ordained to the priesthood? This is a question that provokes much debate in our modern world, but it is one to which the Church has always answered "No." The basis for the Church’s teaching on ordination is found in the New Testament as well as in the writings of the Church Fathers.

    While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (cf. 1 Cor. 11:1–16), they could not teach or have authority over a man (cf. 1 Tim. 2:11–14), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (cf. 1 Cor. 14:34–38). Nonetheless, Paul vigorously upholds the equality of men and women (cf. Gal 3:28).

    The following quotations from the Church Fathers indicate that women do play an active role in the Church and that in the age of the Fathers there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but that these women were not ordained.

    In 1994, Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter that pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

    In 1995, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in conjunction with the pope, ruled that this teaching "requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Lumen Gentium 25:2)" (Response of Oct. 25, 1995).



    Irenaeus



    Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . Handing mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.

    When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: "May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil."

    Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him (Against Heresies 1:13:2 [A.D. 189]).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Tertullian



    It is of no concern how diverse be their [the heretics’] views, so long as they conspire to erase the one truth. They are puffed up; all offer knowledge. Before they have finished as catechumens, how thoroughly learned they are! And the heretical women themselves, how shameless are they! They make bold to teach, to debate, to work exorcisms, to undertake cures (Demurrer against the Heretics 41:4–5 [A.D. 200]).

    [A female heretic], lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. . . . But we, little fishes, after the example of our Icthus [Greek, "Fish"], Jesus Christ, are born in water . . . so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

    It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church [cf. 1 Cor 14:34–35], but neither [is it permitted her] . . . to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say sacerdotal office (The Veiling of Virgins 9 [A.D. 206]).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The Didascalia



    For it is not to teach that you women . . . are appointed. . . . For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us" (Didascalia 3:6:1–2 [A.D. 225]).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Firmilian



    There suddenly arose among us a certain woman, who in a state of ecstasy announced herself as a prophetess and acted as if filled with the Holy Ghost. . . . Through the deceptions and illusions of the demon, this woman had previously set about deluding believers in a variety of ways. Among the means by which she had deluded many was daring to pretend that, through proper invocation, she consecrated bread and performed the Eucharist. She offered up the sacrifice to the Lord in a liturgical act that corresponds to the usual rites, and she baptized many, all the while misusing the customary and legitimate wording of the [baptismal] question. She carried all these things out in such a manner that nothing seemed to deviate from the norms of the Church (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74:10 [A.D. 253]).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    First Council of Nicea



    Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity (canon 19 [A.D. 325]).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Council of Laodicea



    The so-called "presbyteresses" or "presidentesses" are not to be ordained in the Church (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Epiphanius



    Certain women there in Arabia [the Collyridians]. . . in an unlawful and blasphemous ceremony . . . ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit (Against Heresies 78:13 [A.D. 377]).

    From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God has been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses (ibid.).

    If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good (ibid., 79:3).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    John Chrysostom



    When one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The Apostolic Constitutions



    The "man is the head of the woman" [1 Cor. 11:3], and he is originally ordained for the priesthood; it is not just to abrogate the order of the creation and leave the first to come to the last part of the body. For the woman is the body of the man, taken from his side and subject to him, from whom she was separated for the procreation of children. For he says, "He shall rule over you" [Gen. 3:16]. For the first part of the woman is the man, as being her head. But if in the foregoing constitutions we have not permitted them [women] to teach, how will any one allow them, contrary to nature, to perform the office of the priest? For this is one of the ignorant practices of Gentile atheism, to ordain women priests to the female deities, not one of the constitutions of Christ (Apolstolic Constitutions, 3:9).




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Augustine



    [The Quintillians are heretics who] give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman (Heresies 1:17 [A.D. 428]).
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  8. #28
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    Re: The New Pope

    del rio:

    the revelations thing is silly

    It's talking about the pope feeding his flock, which is the Church, amid many tribulations. How anyone can get "AntiChrist" out of that is beyond me

    about your questions..the phrase "married to christ" simply means as a priest he is focused on the church as its sole master. The church is not against marriage but for a priest it would be beyond difficult to run a family and a church. From my understanding there is no "decrees" of heaven. or levels. Heaven is from the relationship. Some are called vocationally into ministry on earth. Others are not. I would never recommend everyone to become a priest. I for 1 am not going to be a priest. But heaven is for all believers. No levels from my understanding. We could get into purgatory here..hehe
    (im almost done with ur email bro)

    we should pray against the miami trade..
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  9. #29
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    Re: The New Pope

    hello? is that all
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  10. #30
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    Re: The New Pope

    "Del Rio" wrote:
    From what I understand Women cannot hold the priesthood. They are just as valuable to God as men but isn't that why they are not allowed to serve the same?

    I too belive that marrige is a gift of god and something all should partake in.


    This has nothing to do with anything just something i find extreemly interesting.....


    http://www.crystalinks.com/papalprophecies.html

    Particularly the last three.....
    8. The Labor of the Son. JOHN PAUL II. 1978-2005. Pope John Paul II was the most traveled Pope in history. He circled the globe numerous times, preaching to huge audiences everywhere he went. He survived an assassination attempt. He has written a book which has enjoyed a large circulation. Like the sun which never ceases to labor and provides light daily, this Pope has been incessant. He was born on May 18, 1920. On that date in the morning there was a near total eclipse of the sun over Europe. Prophecy - The 110th Pope is "De Labore Solis" (Of the Solar Eclipse, or, From the Toil of the Sun). Like the sun he came out of the East (Poland).

    9. The Glory of the Olive. The Order of St. Benedict has said this Pope will come from their order. It is interesting that Jesus gave his apocalyptic prophecy about the end of time from the Mount of Olives. This Pope will reign during the beginning of the tribulation Jesus spoke of. The 111th prophesy is "Gloria Olivae" (The Glory of the Olive). The Order of Saint Benedict has claimed that this pope will come from their ranks. Saint Benedict himself prophesied that before the end of the world his Order, known also as the Olivetans, will triumphantly lead the Catholic Church in its fight against evil.

    10. PETER THE ROMAN - This final Pope will likely be Satan, taking the form of a man named Peter who will gain a worldwide allegiance and adoration. He will be the final antichrist which prophecy students have long foretold. If it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived. The 112th prophesy states: "In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church there will reign Petrus Romanus, who will feed his flock amid many tribulations; after which the seven-hilled city will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people. The End."

    Malachy's final words, "Rome, the seat of the Vatican, will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people."
    No offense, Del Rio, but this isn't gospel, is it? I mean, the word of God is supposed to be in the Bible directly, and this appears to be from the mouth of a pope or Saint well after the Bible was writ.

    It's interesting, but to a non-Catholic, it seems kind of Nostrodamus-ish.

    Not being Catholic, that would be my question: are the words of Saints and popes, et. al, to be as holy and true as the Bible itself?
    Have you ever seen a race of turtles, and they all go the wrong way instead of towards the finish line?

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