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  1. #101
    Mikecarter81's Avatar
    Mikecarter81 is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    I smoked for 12 years and can say I'm glad that the smoking ban went into effect.
    I think in someways it made my the choice to smoke more difficult.
    It helped me quit which probably will have saved my life.

    The argument here has many different faces and forms but the basic premise is this fact.
    Those who smoke think
    "I hate that the government sanctions me."
    I get it.
    Yet, just like myself, you make the choice to smoke, just like you can choose to drink and drive, but when the activity puts the greater public at risk, then our government has an obligation to stop you from doing it.

    Mike
    I am an avid Viking fan, but also am an avid restoration guy of vintage Mopar(Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth)B bodies

  2. #102
    Schutz's Avatar
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    "Mikecarter81" wrote:
    I smoked for 12 years and can say I'm glad that the smoking ban went into effect.
    I think in someways it made my the choice to smoke more difficult.
    It helped me quit which probably will have saved my life.

    The argument here has many different faces and forms but the basic premise is this fact.
    Those who smoke think
    "I hate that the government sanctions me."
    I get it.
    Yet, just like myself, you make the choice to smoke, just like you can choose to drink and drive, but when the activity puts the greater public at risk, then our government has an obligation to stop you from doing it.

    Mike
    That's fair enough I suppose.
    And if it is voted on by a community, state, or the country and passes by a vote by the people I'm fine with it.
    I just don't like the Tipper Gore types who think they can regulate our lives.
    I'm not fully against the ban of smoking from bars, I just don't want stuff like this to be a flood gate for more regulations.

  3. #103
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    "Crunchem" wrote:
    Thats right people makes choices...Daddy didn't pay my way through college...ummmm yeah I made CHOICES and made my own way.
    I've done the factory jobs...and OSHA is a joke...so please don't use the card that some people have no other choice!
    I am female and I have never worked as a waitress server or whatever...i've worked swing shift, over nighters...dead shift (as we called them) and everyone u can think of.

    but i'm not trying to change your mind on smoking but rather allowing the gov. to decide what we do as citizens of this country.
    Are U so willing to let a bunch of politicians that will do whatever they can to make money decide how u live your life?
    When your livelyhood gets pinched because of them making money then maybe u'll get it....or not
    Okay, I'm in. ;D Look,OSHA is most certainly not a joke. I have worked on rigs and for the last 8 years as I have progressed in my trade, (plumbing/pipefitting) I learned that OSHA helps. How about trenches? OSHA is there to make sure my boss, the one who puts production and speed before my health, tells us to get in 9ft deep trench without trenchplates and without an egress point, risking death, and it is real, OSHA tells that guy to get the jacks and plates that will keep me alive. No joke. In Vernal, Utah, There is the Oilfield, and there is the support and service jobs in town. At stores, at cafe's, at bars. There are county jobs. Not many. Go to job search for that town and look at whats availiable. You can see how much "choice" there is in a place like that. Not a whole lot. There are lots of places like that. The main point of a bar is to sell booze. For people to go and drink. There not smokeshops, or cigar clubs. The law will help people. Serious. Breathing in smoke is good for you? How can it hurt? Business will not suffer. States with the ban can attest to that. People will go drink regardless. The smokers will have outside heated ares in no time and folks will be happy. same as before
    Tuco the world.....

  4. #104
    Crunchem's Avatar
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    ok your not getting the point....smoke or not smoke who cares...I don't agree with allowing the gov to decide what an owner of his or her OWN buisness can do with it...so that being said if people don't go to a bar that allows smoking they have they right to say no smoking but when they lose there livelyhood because the gov says they can't allow it...then theres a problem.

    If an non smoking bar would make them money they would of done it long ago...

    and yeah they may put heaters in and try to make smoking easier...but that costs them money and they will still lose some business...
    with the economy problems we have anyway...why make it harder on small business owners?

    but i'm done...I actually have to get up in the morning and work...let the debate continue...ahahahh
    Lets go fishing

  5. #105
    ItalianStallion's Avatar
    ItalianStallion is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    "Crunchem" wrote:
    ok your not getting the point....smoke or not smoke who cares...I don't agree with allowing the gov to decide what an owner of his or her OWN buisness can do with it...so that being said if people don't go to a bar that allows smoking they have they right to say no smoking but when they lose there livelyhood because the gov says they can't allow it...then theres a problem.

    If an non smoking bar would make them money they would of done it long ago...

    and yeah they may put heaters in and try to make smoking easier...but that costs them money and they will still lose some business...
    with the economy problems we have anyway...why make it harder on small business owners?

    but i'm done...I actually have to get up in the morning and work...let the debate continue...ahahahh
    Crunchum you sound like a rambling anarchist.

    Hypothetical situation, if a Bar owner decides to start putting methanol in the alcoholic drinks he serves to save money, is it ok because it's his choice as a small business owner?
    What if he even advertises it?
    Is it still ethical?
    What about the one person who drinks it and gets poisoned because they weren't sure what the exact risk/effect of methanol consumption was when they drank it?


    I m like a Ja Rule poster, cause I'm off the wall.

  6. #106
    olson_10's Avatar
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    "Schutz" wrote:
    "Mikecarter81" wrote:
    I smoked for 12 years and can say I'm glad that the smoking ban went into effect.
    I think in someways it made my the choice to smoke more difficult.
    It helped me quit which probably will have saved my life.

    The argument here has many different faces and forms but the basic premise is this fact.
    Those who smoke think
    "I hate that the government sanctions me."

    I get it.
    Yet, just like myself, you make the choice to smoke, just like you can choose to drink and drive, but when the activity puts the greater public at risk, then our government has an obligation to stop you from doing it.

    Mike
    That's fair enough I suppose.
    And if it is voted on by a community, state, or the country and passes by a vote by the people I'm fine with it.
    I just don't like the Tipper Gore types who think they can regulate our lives.
    I'm not fully against the ban of smoking from bars, I just don't want stuff like this to be a flood gate for more regulations.
    good way to put it..if it was voted on by citizens, then it isnt something that could be argued, but the fact that they just go ahead and do it, without public opinion being a factor, is especially unnecessary..its a socialist idea rather than democratic
    People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.

  7. #107
    ItalianStallion's Avatar
    ItalianStallion is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    "olson_10" wrote:
    "Schutz" wrote:
    "Mikecarter81" wrote:
    I smoked for 12 years and can say I'm glad that the smoking ban went into effect.
    I think in someways it made my the choice to smoke more difficult.
    It helped me quit which probably will have saved my life.

    The argument here has many different faces and forms but the basic premise is this fact.
    Those who smoke think
    "I hate that the government sanctions me."
    I get it.
    Yet, just like myself, you make the choice to smoke, just like you can choose to drink and drive, but when the activity puts the greater public at risk, then our government has an obligation to stop you from doing it.

    Mike
    That's fair enough I suppose.
    And if it is voted on by a community, state, or the country and passes by a vote by the people I'm fine with it.
    I just don't like the Tipper Gore types who think they can regulate our lives. I'm not fully against the ban of smoking from bars, I just don't want stuff like this to be a flood gate for more regulations.
    good way to put it..if it was voted on by citizens, then it isnt something that could be argued, but the fact that they just go ahead and do it, without public opinion being a factor, is especially unnecessary..its a socialist idea rather than democratic
    Believe it or not the government passes most laws without a referendum of public opinion, because:

    A. It costs a lot of money to hold these referendums
    B. It's called representative democracy, so if you don't like the decisions they're making, don't vote them in.
    It's an imperfect system, but it's the best one we have.


    At the very least send your representative a strongly worded letter if it bothers you that much and maybe if they get enough they won't support these laws...


    I m like a Ja Rule poster, cause I'm off the wall.

  8. #108
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "ItalianStallion" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:

    LOL! It has everything to do with it & both are equally relevant We are talking about laws being passed to improve a persons health & reduce uneccessary, preventable deaths.

    Since you made the argument that there are 35,000 deaths annually from coronary heart disease in never-smokers & smoking bans should be envoked to prevent that, I would think you'd be in favor in banning foods high in cholesterol.

    After all, that 35,000 you mention is only a chunk of the big picture & the smoking ban won't significantly cause a major decrease in that number.

    However, as my info shows a decrease in a persons intake of cholesterol will reduce the number of ALL, NOT SOME of the coronary heart disease deaths. Yet you fail to see the significance or relevancy of it.
    Apparently you don't read what I write, ever, as it seems I have to explain myself 3 times for every point I make.
    It all comes down to the right to make decisions that negatively impact their own health, but absolute lack of right to make those decisions that can negatively impact other peoples' health.

    I recognize the impact the impact cholesterol has on cardiac health more than you know.
    In fact I'm currently studying cardiology, drug treatments and many cholesterol and lipid-lowering drugs.
    Cholesterol doesn't kill you, in fact it's necessary to live.
    Cholesterol exists in the lipid bilayers in all the cells of our body providing stability to those membranes.
    In addition it is necessary in order to synthesize hormones like testosterone and estrogen.
    Eating high cholesterol food in moderation has no negative impact on your health.
    Smoking is neither necessary for life nor is it harmless in any amount.

    People are stupid.
    The fact that people want to eat themselves into an early grave is sad, but it is their right.
    The fact people want to sit on their a$$ while their heart withers and their arteries clog is sad, but their right.
    The fact people want to eat 10 times the recommended daily amount of salt and suffer heart failure is sad, but their right.


    None of these affect anyone else's health but their own.
    The same cannot
    be said for smoking, and again I repeat, that is the big difference.
    They live with their poor health decisions, there is no reason anybody else should have to.

    PS: Be careful when your making scientific claims (ie. reducing cholesterol will always decrease the number of all types of heart disease deaths) as that statement is flawed on so many levels.
    Damn it now your pissing me off. Your arguments are very sound yet I still disagree 100%, which makes me think I am either stupid, or crazy.
    The only argument that I can come up with is that every one has choices about where they work, and most work have dangers. In my job I sit at a desk for 12hrs at a time, this could lead to heart failure someday.
    Don't forget the stress either.

    Those same choices you speak of make a person decide, "should I go into a smoking bar or non-smoking bar."
    There are high risk jobs out there where the employer knows those jobs are high risk, you know they are high risk & you decide to either work there or not.

    Same with bars. If these were government owned bars, I could see the case, but these are privately owned bars in the private sector. Sure they are open to the public, but you make the choice whether to work there or not work their. The signs on the front of the bar that states "This is a non-smoking establishment" or "This is a smoking" establishment tells you before hand what risks are involved & it is you that makes the ultimate choice.

    I don't go to bars, so it doesn't affect me & I have no problem whatsoever with a restaurant/food establishments being non-smoking, but bars are a different story.

    My biggest problem is when the government steps into peoples private lives & tell them what they can & cannot do. Parents have to think twice now before spanking their own kids when they act up, in fear of facing the law for child abuse.

    Bar owners have tried to say, "OK, you made my bar non-smoking because it is open to the public, so I'm going to change it to a private club, charge a membership fee to get in & allow smoking."

    Government said "No, you can't do that." They've tried to make them a smoke emporium, so to speak, where drinks are served also & they have also said no.

    Where & when does it all end?

    Since some people are pushing for the legalization of marijuana & supposedly there are no health risks to others by people smoking it, will it be legal to legal to light up a "J" in a bar?

    There are also electronic cigarettes out there where a smoker can get his nicotoine fix without affecting the health of others whatsoever. Why are those
    not allowed in bars?

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #109
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    IS, here are the links to some of the maps I promised you.

    The first is distribution maps (8 pages) of heart disease deaths in the US. Note the high risk areas;

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/gis/atmaphd.pdf

    The second is a distribution maps (8 pages) of lung cancer deaths in the US. Note the high risk areas;

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/gis/atmaplc.pdf

    The third & fourth are distribution maps of coal mining operations & employees in the US. Note the high risk areas & similarities to the previous maps;

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/statistics/pdfs/m_mc.pdf

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/statistics/pdfs/m_ec.pdf

    I'm trying to locate the others, that included petroleum product plants & other harmful chemical plants & I will post those when I find them, but they were damn similar to the first two sets of maps I posted.




    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #110
    PurplePackerEater is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Minnesota bars beat smoking ban

    It's all been said, so I'll take a new tack...smoking makes everyone and everything smell like ass.

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