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  1. #21
    Caine's Avatar
    Caine is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Hate messages found in museum suspect's car

    "Mr" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    No need to debate it. It was already debated by our founding fathers.


    No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

    "...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

    "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights,

    there are many more quotes.
    Almost 250 years ago, the world has changed greatly.

    They wanted weapons to protect themselves from an oppressive power.

    While I don't believe in total disarmament of civilians, I think that the founding fathers argument is dated.

    And they didn't have handguns back then. I think everyone should be able to own long guns, but the purpose of handguns is the ability to conceal. What's the purpose of a citizen concealing a handgun? Yes, I'm aware this man used a rifle. I'm just putting my 2 cents out there about gun control.

    yeah, we may as well throw out that old outdated Bill Of Rights. I'm sure todays politicians could write a much better one.
    Well yeah, that's what I was talking about, those guys were obviously inferior to the brainiacs we have in charge now
    :. Obviously the founding fathers lived in uneducated, densely populated, poor, urban environments, plagued with drugs and the crime their prohibition creates, riddled with handgun crime.

    If they came back to America today, they'd be singing a different tune.

    I have no problem with people owning long guns(again, all the founding fathers knew of) I plan to own several if I don't go into law enforcement(where I will still own several, as well as my mandated sidearm), but the purpose of handguns is to conceal, and the only reason you need to conceal is so you can use it against someone unexpectedly. There's no need for civilians to own them, and they've caused more problems than they've solved. If there were ways to keep them only in the hands of law-abiding citizens, that would be great. But you sell them to the good people, and they still get into the hands of the bad, through robbery, illegal sales, etc.
    Actually, there is absolutely NO evidence to support what you're saying, and in fact quite a bit to support the opposite point of view.


    1:
    The purpose of carrying concealed is to reduce the reaction of other people to the fact that a firearm is present.
    People get fixated on guns.
    So, conceal it, and people don't even think about it.

    2:
    In almost every state with concealed carry, the incidents of violent crime are LOWER than in states without...because the criminals know that the populace is armed, and they don't want to get shot.
    Therefore, putting them into the hands of "civilians" can actually SOLVE problems.

    Further, with Police population ratios, the chances of a Police Officer being where YOU need him to be at any given moment is astronomically LOW.
    And while you're waiting on one to arrive, you're already being shot.
    If you're heeled, you can fight back until help arrives.

    3:
    There is, unfortunately, no way to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys.
    So why create laws that only restrict GOOD guys?
    Banning conceealed carry doesn't stop criminals from doing it, it just stops law abiding citizens.

    Example:
    I am a former Marine, a Police Academy graduate, and used to work Executice Protection - i.e. I have LOADS of firearm training and understand the laws pertaining to it - but I am not allowed to carry concealed because I live in Wisconsin.
    So, I don't.
    If the shiite hit the fan, wouldn't it be better for me to be heeled rather than sitting on my hands hoping the Police arrive before everyone is shot?


    I'm not saying a blanket "Everyone gets a gun" law is a good idea.
    But I DO strongly advocate a law that allows individuals who have to proper training to carry concealed with a license.
    I'd have one in a heartbeat.

    Caine

  2. #22
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
    Mr Anderson is offline Jersey Retired
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    Dec 1969
    Posts
    7,692

    Re: Hate messages found in museum suspect's car

    "Caine" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    No need to debate it. It was already debated by our founding fathers.


    No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

    "...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

    "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights,

    there are many more quotes.
    Almost 250 years ago, the world has changed greatly.

    They wanted weapons to protect themselves from an oppressive power.

    While I don't believe in total disarmament of civilians, I think that the founding fathers argument is dated.

    And they didn't have handguns back then. I think everyone should be able to own long guns, but the purpose of handguns is the ability to conceal. What's the purpose of a citizen concealing a handgun? Yes, I'm aware this man used a rifle. I'm just putting my 2 cents out there about gun control.

    yeah, we may as well throw out that old outdated Bill Of Rights. I'm sure todays politicians could write a much better one.
    Well yeah, that's what I was talking about, those guys were obviously inferior to the brainiacs we have in charge now
    :. Obviously the founding fathers lived in uneducated, densely populated, poor, urban environments, plagued with drugs and the crime their prohibition creates, riddled with handgun crime.

    If they came back to America today, they'd be singing a different tune.

    I have no problem with people owning long guns(again, all the founding fathers knew of) I plan to own several if I don't go into law enforcement(where I will still own several, as well as my mandated sidearm), but the purpose of handguns is to conceal, and the only reason you need to conceal is so you can use it against someone unexpectedly. There's no need for civilians to own them, and they've caused more problems than they've solved. If there were ways to keep them only in the hands of law-abiding citizens, that would be great. But you sell them to the good people, and they still get into the hands of the bad, through robbery, illegal sales, etc.
    Actually, there is absolutely NO evidence to support what you're saying, and in fact quite a bit to support the opposite point of view.


    1:
    The purpose of carrying concealed is to reduce the reaction of other people to the fact that a firearm is present.
    People get fixated on guns.
    So, conceal it, and people don't even think about it.

    2:
    In almost every state with concealed carry, the incidents of violent crime are LOWER than in states without...because the criminals know that the populace is armed, and they don't want to get shot.
    Therefore, putting them into the hands of "civilians" can actually SOLVE problems.

    Further, with Police population ratios, the chances of a Police Officer being where YOU need him to be at any given moment is astronomically LOW.
    And while you're waiting on one to arrive, you're already being shot.
    If you're heeled, you can fight back until help arrives.

    3:
    There is, unfortunately, no way to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys.
    So why create laws that only restrict GOOD guys?
    Banning conceealed carry doesn't stop criminals from doing it, it just stops law abiding citizens.

    Example:
    I am a former Marine, a Police Academy graduate, and used to work Executice Protection - i.e. I have LOADS of firearm training and understand the laws pertaining to it - but I am not allowed to carry concealed because I live in Wisconsin.
    So, I don't.
    If the shiite hit the fan, wouldn't it be better for me to be heeled rather than sitting on my hands hoping the Police arrive before everyone is shot?


    I'm not saying a blanket "Everyone gets a gun" law is a good idea.
    But I DO strongly advocate a law that allows individuals who have to proper training to carry concealed with a license.
    I'd have one in a heartbeat.

    Caine
    I've heard everything you've said before, and you are correct. I'm just voicing my opinion on how I think it should be. I just think that handguns are a problem. There's no need for them. You're correct in terms of practicality. And I'm talking ideals, which is not usually how I operate, it's just one part of history that really annoys me. I feel that handguns should have been much more controlled from the beginning.

    I only disagree with the first point you made. The only reason people fixate on guns when they see them is because it's unusual, sort of a taboo to see a private citizen with a firearm. But if everyone saw it regularly, people wouldn't fixate on the weapon.

    I think everyone should own a long gun, but all handguns have done in civilian hands has had to do with crime. Whether it's committing them, or protecting yourself and others from them.

  3. #23
    BadlandsVikings's Avatar
    BadlandsVikings is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    26,572

    Re: Hate messages found in museum suspect's car

    "Mr" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    [quote author=marshallvike link=topic=52125.msg957383#msg957383 date=1244758681]
    No need to debate it. It was already debated by our founding fathers.


    No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

    "...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

    "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights,

    there are many more quotes.
    Almost 250 years ago, the world has changed greatly.

    They wanted weapons to protect themselves from an oppressive power.

    While I don't believe in total disarmament of civilians, I think that the founding fathers argument is dated.

    And they didn't have handguns back then. I think everyone should be able to own long guns, but the purpose of handguns is the ability to conceal. What's the purpose of a citizen concealing a handgun? Yes, I'm aware this man used a rifle. I'm just putting my 2 cents out there about gun control.

    yeah, we may as well throw out that old outdated Bill Of Rights. I'm sure todays politicians could write a much better one.
    Well yeah, that's what I was talking about, those guys were obviously inferior to the brainiacs we have in charge now
    :. Obviously the founding fathers lived in uneducated, densely populated, poor, urban environments, plagued with drugs and the crime their prohibition creates, riddled with handgun crime.

    If they came back to America today, they'd be singing a different tune.

    I have no problem with people owning long guns(again, all the founding fathers knew of) I plan to own several if I don't go into law enforcement(where I will still own several, as well as my mandated sidearm), but the purpose of handguns is to conceal, and the only reason you need to conceal is so you can use it against someone unexpectedly. There's no need for civilians to own them, and they've caused more problems than they've solved. If there were ways to keep them only in the hands of law-abiding citizens, that would be great. But you sell them to the good people, and they still get into the hands of the bad, through robbery, illegal sales, etc.
    Actually, there is absolutely NO evidence to support what you're saying, and in fact quite a bit to support the opposite point of view.


    1:
    The purpose of carrying concealed is to reduce the reaction of other people to the fact that a firearm is present.
    People get fixated on guns.
    So, conceal it, and people don't even think about it.

    2:
    In almost every state with concealed carry, the incidents of violent crime are LOWER than in states without...because the criminals know that the populace is armed, and they don't want to get shot.
    Therefore, putting them into the hands of "civilians" can actually SOLVE problems.

    Further, with Police population ratios, the chances of a Police Officer being where YOU need him to be at any given moment is astronomically LOW.
    And while you're waiting on one to arrive, you're already being shot.
    If you're heeled, you can fight back until help arrives.

    3:
    There is, unfortunately, no way to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys.
    So why create laws that only restrict GOOD guys?
    Banning conceealed carry doesn't stop criminals from doing it, it just stops law abiding citizens.

    Example:
    I am a former Marine, a Police Academy graduate, and used to work Executice Protection - i.e. I have LOADS of firearm training and understand the laws pertaining to it - but I am not allowed to carry concealed because I live in Wisconsin.
    So, I don't.
    If the shiite hit the fan, wouldn't it be better for me to be heeled rather than sitting on my hands hoping the Police arrive before everyone is shot?


    I'm not saying a blanket "Everyone gets a gun" law is a good idea.
    But I DO strongly advocate a law that allows individuals who have to proper training to carry concealed with a license.
    I'd have one in a heartbeat.

    Caine
    I've heard everything you've said before, and you are correct. I'm just voicing my opinion on how I think it should be. I just think that handguns are a problem. There's no need for them. You're correct in terms of practicality. And I'm talking ideals, which is not usually how I operate, it's just one part of history that really annoys me. I feel that handguns should have been much more controlled from the beginning.

    I only disagree with the first point you made. The only reason people fixate on guns when they see them is because it's unusual, sort of a taboo to see a private citizen with a firearm. But if everyone saw it regularly, people wouldn't fixate on the weapon.

    I think everyone should own a long gun, but all handguns have done in civilian hands has had to do with crime. Whether it's committing them, or protecting yourself and others from them.
    [/quote]

    What's wrong with using them for protection?, It's easier to whip out a handgun to protect yourself than it is a deer rifle

  4. #24
    Mr Anderson's Avatar
    Mr Anderson is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    7,692

    Re: Hate messages found in museum suspect's car

    "BadlandsViking" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    [quote author=Mr Anderson link=topic=52125.msg957397#msg957397 date=1244759629]
    [quote author=marshallvike link=topic=52125.msg957383#msg957383 date=1244758681]
    No need to debate it. It was already debated by our founding fathers.


    No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

    "...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

    "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights,

    there are many more quotes.
    Almost 250 years ago, the world has changed greatly.

    They wanted weapons to protect themselves from an oppressive power.

    While I don't believe in total disarmament of civilians, I think that the founding fathers argument is dated.

    And they didn't have handguns back then. I think everyone should be able to own long guns, but the purpose of handguns is the ability to conceal. What's the purpose of a citizen concealing a handgun? Yes, I'm aware this man used a rifle. I'm just putting my 2 cents out there about gun control.

    yeah, we may as well throw out that old outdated Bill Of Rights. I'm sure todays politicians could write a much better one.
    Well yeah, that's what I was talking about, those guys were obviously inferior to the brainiacs we have in charge now
    :. Obviously the founding fathers lived in uneducated, densely populated, poor, urban environments, plagued with drugs and the crime their prohibition creates, riddled with handgun crime.

    If they came back to America today, they'd be singing a different tune.

    I have no problem with people owning long guns(again, all the founding fathers knew of) I plan to own several if I don't go into law enforcement(where I will still own several, as well as my mandated sidearm), but the purpose of handguns is to conceal, and the only reason you need to conceal is so you can use it against someone unexpectedly. There's no need for civilians to own them, and they've caused more problems than they've solved. If there were ways to keep them only in the hands of law-abiding citizens, that would be great. But you sell them to the good people, and they still get into the hands of the bad, through robbery, illegal sales, etc.
    Actually, there is absolutely NO evidence to support what you're saying, and in fact quite a bit to support the opposite point of view.


    1:
    The purpose of carrying concealed is to reduce the reaction of other people to the fact that a firearm is present.
    People get fixated on guns.
    So, conceal it, and people don't even think about it.

    2:
    In almost every state with concealed carry, the incidents of violent crime are LOWER than in states without...because the criminals know that the populace is armed, and they don't want to get shot.
    Therefore, putting them into the hands of "civilians" can actually SOLVE problems.

    Further, with Police population ratios, the chances of a Police Officer being where YOU need him to be at any given moment is astronomically LOW.
    And while you're waiting on one to arrive, you're already being shot.
    If you're heeled, you can fight back until help arrives.

    3:
    There is, unfortunately, no way to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys.
    So why create laws that only restrict GOOD guys?
    Banning conceealed carry doesn't stop criminals from doing it, it just stops law abiding citizens.

    Example:
    I am a former Marine, a Police Academy graduate, and used to work Executice Protection - i.e. I have LOADS of firearm training and understand the laws pertaining to it - but I am not allowed to carry concealed because I live in Wisconsin.
    So, I don't.
    If the shiite hit the fan, wouldn't it be better for me to be heeled rather than sitting on my hands hoping the Police arrive before everyone is shot?


    I'm not saying a blanket "Everyone gets a gun" law is a good idea.
    But I DO strongly advocate a law that allows individuals who have to proper training to carry concealed with a license.
    I'd have one in a heartbeat.

    Caine
    I've heard everything you've said before, and you are correct. I'm just voicing my opinion on how I think it should be. I just think that handguns are a problem. There's no need for them. You're correct in terms of practicality. And I'm talking ideals, which is not usually how I operate, it's just one part of history that really annoys me. I feel that handguns should have been much more controlled from the beginning.

    I only disagree with the first point you made. The only reason people fixate on guns when they see them is because it's unusual, sort of a taboo to see a private citizen with a firearm. But if everyone saw it regularly, people wouldn't fixate on the weapon.

    I think everyone should own a long gun, but all handguns have done in civilian hands has had to do with crime. Whether it's committing them, or protecting yourself and others from them.
    [/quote]

    What's wrong with using them for protection?, It's easier to whip out a handgun to protect yourself than it is a deer rifle
    [/quote]
    Because you don't need to be able to quickly draw a weapon if your attacker isn't concealing one. Cops and active military should be able to own and carry. Anyone else should be limited to long guns. I know it's pointless now, since the guns are already in the hands of the people who shouldn't have them, but that how I think it should have been from the beginning, there would be a hell of a lot less firearm homicides, and accidental deaths.

    Caine's stance is correct practically. Like I said before, I'm talking ideals right now, so I'm done here.

  5. #25
    VikingsTw is offline Jersey Retired
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    6,144

    Re: Hate messages found in museum suspect's car

    "BadlandsViking" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    "Mr" wrote:
    "marshallvike" wrote:
    No need to debate it. It was already debated by our founding fathers.


    No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

    "...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

    "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights,

    there are many more quotes.
    Almost 250 years ago, the world has changed greatly.

    They wanted weapons to protect themselves from an oppressive power.

    While I don't believe in total disarmament of civilians, I think that the founding fathers argument is dated.

    And they didn't have handguns back then. I think everyone should be able to own long guns, but the purpose of handguns is the ability to conceal. What's the purpose of a citizen concealing a handgun? Yes, I'm aware this man used a rifle. I'm just putting my 2 cents out there about gun control.

    yeah, we may as well throw out that old outdated Bill Of Rights. I'm sure todays politicians could write a much better one.
    Communism would be awesome
    Meritocracy by a Long Shot...

    "this social system ultimately leads to a social revolution in which the masses overthrow the elite, who have become arrogant and disconnected from the feelings of the public."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

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