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  1. #121
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    "V-Unit" wrote:
    My two cents.

    I've been on this board for about 17 months and think that is a long enough time to enter this conversation. I hope my complaints are helpful.

    1. TNT said it best, old posters need to be nicer in how they treat newcomers. I think that can be done in several ways including how people are treated when they create a duplicate thread and the stance you take when reading their posts in general.

    I hate that Bill Murray thing. For new posters it makes a very bad impression and is a very elitist thing. Some duplicate posters are flamers, but others simply don't know the rules yet. IMO its very offensive to open up your first new thread on this board, expecting a solid discussion on your topic, and instead get some dumb clock with people laughing at you.


    2. Even though I have HOF status, I have no idea what people on this board think of me. That is why I strongly reccomend a rating system that is frequently used by anybody who cares about the well being of this site IN A FAIR WAY. Good newcomers will feel much more welcome when they have high approval rating or they will respond to a bad rating by trying to create a more intelligent post. Those who whine about their bad rating are the ones we don't want on this board.

    3. I remember when I first opened the HOF Forums. I thought "Cool! A place when we can have intelligent conversation." Then I opened up the welcome thread, and didn't feel welcome at all because half of the people here were basically saying I didn't belong. That again reflects a poor attitude on what older posters care about. Many have been here for much longer than I, and I have been here for more than a year because I care about football and love to talk/argue about it. We shouldn't be focusing on being elitist and caring about # of posts.

    Then I started a strategy thread here, thinking it was going to be a hit, but in the end no one really wanted to talk about the subject. I was a bit miffed by that, because it scares me to think a HOFer would rather chase newbies away than have a good conversation here. I think the older posters are being bogged down by the task of making aggresive posters unwelcome and it is distracting us from the real purpose of this site. I take a passive attitude versus almost all trolls, yet I still realize that the site is less fun.

    To sum it up, good conversation will breed more good conversation. If mods are active enough trolls can be ignored by others and disposed of by mods, which IMO is the best way to handle it. Also, a rating system cannot hurt. If wew don't choose to go that path however we can still be nice and include newer posters in popular threads.
    WOW!
    That was more like TWO DOLLARS worth...BUT it was a GREAT POST!

    I apologize that you haven't been made to feel welcome by some of the "older" posters...I hope that I don't fall into that catagory but if I do, then accept my personal apology as well.
    I have personally tried in the time that I have been here (a little over two years) to welcome EVERY new poster that has posted an introductory thread, as well as others that I see post in ongoing threads.
    I am pretty easygoing when it comes to whomever joins...where they are from, what they do for a living, who they are...these things are all secondary to the fact that they are a VIKINGS fan, first and foremost.
    Now I am guilty of clowning around and not always being serious...and if that is perceived as not being the optimal fan then that is something that is just gonna have to be accepted.
    Make no mistake, I have and will always be a VIKINGS fan...and I know enough about my team and about football in general to hold my own in most every conversation on this board.
    Just remember, not everyone that comes here every day will ALWAYS want to talk about FOOTBALL...even though it is the reason that we are here.
    That is why we have different forums...and they serve their purpose.
    I am sorry to hear that your strategy thread didn't take off...sometimes things like that get posted at the wrong time to be optimally utilized.
    BUT the solution to that is to find a group within the group that is like-minded...and make sure that they know that you have posted something that is more serious and football-related in nature.
    PMs, IMs, and email are good ways to connect with those like-minded posters.

    I like what I have seen from you, V-Unit...and I look forward to more from you in the future.
    It is posters like you that are the future of PP.O...regardless of the initial reception that you experienced.
    Stick with it and you will see results!!
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  2. #122
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    "singersp" wrote:
    I kind of feel after 10 pages of posts I have to come in here and defend myself.

    First off, about the “This article or this topic has already been posted”. Prophet & I chatted several times yesterday as well. It by no means, either by myself or by Prophet is intended to bash or bitchslap any newbie or any other member because it was duplicated. It’s merely a reminder to say “Hey, please look for existing articles/topics before you start a new thread”. It also always then has a link to the original thread, where I hope they or anyone reading it, posts further comments to that topic before a mod either locks or merges it.

    For newbs I fully understand they haven’t found their way around the site yet & I have restricted myself to using it only when I know that member has been around long enough. But many of us don’t know how to use the tools to the best advantage either. Look at how hard of a time some of us old timers had finding our way around the new site.

    Perhaps there is a more tactful way of doing it or of pointing them in the right direction. I know when the pooh hit the fan the other day, I felt like hitting the “delete account” myself.

    We also don’t know if anyone is PMing the newbs or showing them how to do it correctly especially when you see them repeating the same mistakes. Letting them know something has already been posted is just that. Hopefully, they start looking around after that. I know when I started and I was the recipient of a few Bill Murray’s or a nasty gram (LOL) from Ultra or Del, I started looking.

    The mods do a great job of catching most of them, but I’ve seen them slip thru the cracks or not be caught until after several pages have been posted. Is this also the best use of the mods time?

    There are also members who look at the top 10 & only the top 10 & if they don’t see it they start a new thread. Since the inception of the new site, many threads that you had to search for are among the top 10.

    A few months ago, & I saw it mentioned on an earlier page, I suggested two top 10 lists. One for football & Vikings related topics & one for everything else. It will keep the Vikings/football topics up in the top 10 & cut down on duplicate threads. I have read mention of members being able to customize a single top 10 it, but I don’t know if that’s the answer.

    At any given time there are usually, if not more, lurkers on line looking at the top 10 who aren’t looking at a top 10 list & others who won’t ever change theirs & those who post mostly in the clubhouse anyways.

    I would never get rid of the clubhouse or two beers forums as I feel those are necessary & helps make this a better place to be. We all need a little humor in our lives & just how much can we rehash the game & team from Sunday to Sunday.

    Another reason for two top 10’s is that the football related articles/topics get buried to quickly. I am on here at 5:00 AM most mornings & posting the latest that hasn’t been posted yet. Del is usually on here then always replying to them along with some other usual. But by the time some of the younger members get on, the non-football topics rise quickly to the top. On weekends, you can gol 'darnit near set your watch to it, come 11:00AM CST. By no means am I insinuating we don’t have great young posters out there, because we do. I’m just voicing my observations. Many of them know a hell of a lot more of the intracies of football than I do. But that doesn’t mean their opinion or mine is any less valuable to this site.

    2ndly, Cojo mentioned articles. Whole story or not? I’ve do it both ways. I have a pretty good feel, at least I think I do, so correct me if I’m wrong, for what can & what shouldn’t be posted in full. The major reason I post full articles is that there are some that require you to register & log in to read them & some people don’t want to go thru that trouble or give out their e-mail address. I have been asked on several occasions to post the entire article so they wouldn’t have to register. If I can, I oblige, if I can’t, I’ll let them know that also.

    3rdly, IMO the search & advanced search features should be more visible on the forum page. Perhaps separated out & in the upper left or right corner like a majority of websites have. You shouldn’t have to use 3 clicks to get to the Advanced Search feature. Without looking, how many of you HOF’s know an advanced search feature is there, where it is & how to use it?

    I believe Cajun has mentioned the “it only takes two clicks to get to the Viking forum” (or any other forum) to look for new topics. But then you have to search those pages for the new topics. They are listed in order by “the most recently posted in” & not “the most recent”, so a new thread to them may be found on page 3. Again, a lot of people don’t go thru that effort & look at the top 10.
    You don’t have to go thru any of that to find the new topics, they are just one click away. I showed the powerful feature last week to MNJamie, I believe & I rely on it more than the top 10 or any other of the search features or forums. It has to be set up in “Your Account”, but I feel it is so beneficial, it should be turned on by default.

    Below is a picture of what I’m talking about & I’m sure many people haven’t discovered it yet, but I have found it to be the most useful tool on here & I’m on here a hell of a lot.

    The top line to click, “Show unread posts since last visit” gives you a list of every new thread started that either you haven’t seen yet or haven’t posted in yet. Once you click on one of the threads there & read it & then click on “Show unread posts since last visit” again, it will no longer be there, until someone else posts a reply. Once I get down to the topics I’m not interested in I simply select “Mark all topics as read” & the remainder will be purged from the list.

    The 2nd line to click “Show new replies to your posts” works the same way as the first one, except the only threads listed there are threads you’ve posted in that have received a new reply.

    [img width=400 height=310]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/singersp82759/timeloggedin.jpg[/img]

    Some instructions or tutorials to these tools & how to use them would be beneficial to members new & old if they take the time to learn them instead of stumbling onto them like I have.

    That’s my dollar-two cents worth & I hope I haven't offended anyone for voicing my opinion or by giving them a notice to anyone about any duplicate threads. If I have, I apologize.
    Latest Talk is STILL the most recently posted in topics, not the newest.
    Maybe turning that list INTO the NEWEST TOPICS list might be a better option!

    Great analysis, BTW Singer!
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  3. #123
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    "singersp" wrote:
    "WBLVikeBabe" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    .......That’s my dollar-two cents worth & I hope I have offended anyone for voicing my opinion or by giving them a notice to anyone about any duplicate threads. If I have, I apologize.
    Oh but you have offended me Singer.
    Thanks a lot I think i'm going to leave the site now.

    LOL, I corrected it. I type with one finger & I was typing for well over an hour. My finger was tired.


    Jing-Jing won't accept THAT excuse!
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  4. #124
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    "shockzilla" wrote:
    Wow. I guess I really didn't see this coming, but I haven't been on the site as much lately as I'd like.

    OK, here's my two cents worth.

    As far as new members go, I have been guilty of treating some poorly, but I feel that those have been few and far between. I have tried to welcome new members and treat them as I was treated when I was new - with respect and patience. This site has been growing by leaps and bounds, and there are no signs of it slowing down. I think a lot of what we have been experiencing have been growing pains, Things are bound to change as time marches on. We have been blessed with membership that, for the most part, treats everyone as well as can be expected. Like any site, we have some people that join that just don't get it - they'll post anything they want no matter how stupid or inane it might be.

    And again that's where the mods come in, myself included. I think we have been fair, and have for 98% of the time treated people well, and have flamed people when they deserve it. A lot of you have said the same things - with our growth we're bound to get duplicate threads more and more often - it's natural, I think. And as far as the lack or perceived lack of Vikings and football-related threads, I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to that - I think a good 85% of my posts fall into the Clubhouse forum.

    Anyway, I think this is a COMMUNITY, and people in the real world talk about every day life and other things that happen - not just Vikings football. But the GREAT thing about this place is, Vikings Football is the ONE thing that EVERYONE here has in common - no matter what race, no matter what religion, no matter what occupation, no matter what age. We are here for ONE thing: our love of the Vikings. Everything else we talk about falls into place around that. And I LOVE this place because of it. It allows me to talk about things OTHER than the Vikings if I want, no questions asked.

    I think it's good that these issues and questions have been raised - intelligent discussion has always been a hallmark of this place. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the great this is we can agree to disagree. Just let's not let things get out of hand and let's treat people, new AND old, with respect and dignity.

    That's all I got.
    DEAD ON, SHOCK!!!!
    YOU DA MAN!!! (and not a bad karaoke singer either!)
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  5. #125
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    "V-Unit" wrote:
    IMO duplicates and hijacked threads are the same argument.

    Having a large number of posters on any board leads to threads that stay on topic for a shorter period of time. I'll use the classic Brad Johnson thread as an example.

    Even if we assume the first post is solid, the topic will be swayed (probably within the first 3 pages) by a good post (ex. the receivers need to run deeper routes) or a bad post (ex. people who like BJ are idiots) Either way members who have something to say about BJ no longer want to post in this thread, because it really isn't about BJ anymore. It is now about receivers in the former case or a personal argument is the latter.

    Yes the right thing to do may be to try to steer the thread back on topic, but that rarely works. Most logical people would think the right thing to do would be to start a new topic on BJ, since this one is dead.

    So a duplicate is created, and that one is usually dead in 3 or 4 posts because an old timer has shown the link to the old thread and a mod has locked it within the first two pages (I am not trying to criticize, simply making an observation).

    So now we have one thread that really isn't about the QB anymore (dead) and one thread that is locked (dead). The person wanting to talk about BJ feels he has nowhere to post his opinions, and yet another duplicate is made.

    This happens all the time on all message boards. The solutions I can think of are:
    1.? Have dedicated members who post based on subject and not the last post. Personally I don't like this one, it breaks the convention of a normal discussion and is too rigid. All good discussions flow.
    2.? Actually lock the old thread when the second has started? I don't like this one either. Don't really think it would work and it would cause for fragmented conversations.
    3. Merging threads - Obviously the best solution, but sometimes a merge still creates a break in the flow of discussion.

    I'd like to reiterate that this happens on all message boards. I love the fact that we are actively seeking solutions.
    Not YOU again!!!!


    Just kidding...this is ANOTHER great analysis.
    I agree...the merge is the best route...ALTHOUGH we should be careful...sometimes the NEW thread is coming from a different angle.
    I had one the other day that Ultra called me on...but I stuck by my guns and defended the fact that I had started it because I was coming from a different perspective.
    I allowed that it could be merged if Ultra felt that he should...but he let it stand alone...which I felt was FAIR on his part...that he did look at it from my point of view and determine that my solution had as much merit as merging the two. The point being that the mods ARE fair in their assessments and don't just randomly merge threads and make unilateral decisions on a whim.
    Regarding the "hijacking" of threads, I have found that you can steer the conversation back if you make a post that goes a little more in depth about the original topic and gives the next posters something to hang their hats on and furthers the debate.
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

  6. #126
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    A very interesting debate, and thanks for soliciting our opinions Webby.
    I've read many, many valid points and must admit some of the sore spots (dup posts/hijackings) don't really bother me.
    What I tend to do is check the "Show new replies to your posts" and then scan each forum for interesting topics.
    Over time I've found topics started by (IMHO) knowledgable members catch my eye more than others.
    Del, Caine, Cajun, Webby, Shock, and some others always have well though out posts...
    some even a bit witty! (Except Benz cruising Barristers...
    :P)

    I guess what I see as a root cause to most of the complaints is the age, maturity, computer savy and civility of the posting member.
    And you all see how these points can be interrelated.
    Some "kids" (or adults) will never figure out the rules.
    But some will with gentle PMs from the Mods.

    Some kids (and old guys like me) can be influenced by one of you veterans when you don't flame him for an obviously innane statement, but gently point out why his logic doesn't make sense and explain your point of view.
    Sometimes what is obvious to some of us is over the head of the 14 year old who is tickled purple he is on a Viking board.
    Impart some wisdom on them.
    Some will benefit by the advice provided by the oldtimers and some won't.
    There is an "ignore" button option.
    Use it.

    If a person is posting personal attacks, the Mods should address the issue via PM.
    We all can lob barbs at each other in good taste and humor, but you also see some nasty comments.
    Again, perhaps some of our younger members don't understand some of the subtlties I see posted and respond inappropriately.
    They can be warned by the Mods, and perhaps Cajun's practice of smoothing feathers via PMs should be used by others.
    That too could be an education process for the youngsters. Of course, I do enjoy baiting and flaming chessediks, but I also acknowledge their few and far between good points.
    Civility.
    BTW, what ever happened to Inferior00BarFly?

    Webby's idea of the rating system is interesting, and I also like the warning system.
    I believe if there is a problem, report it to the Mod and let them do their job.

    The culture of the board will always change a bit due to the high volume of visits and new members.
    But it's Webby, the Mods and the veterans who post here that make this board what it is: The best Viking board on the net. This is quite a compliment to PPO.


    Well, it's Oark Thirty out here on the Left Coast so my ramblings probably don't make sense.
    At any rate, I'm glad to me a HOF member and appreciate all of your posts.
    SKOL!


    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    Edmund Burke

  7. #127
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    Ok time for me to put my two pennyworth in on this, though reading through a lot of what I would say has already been said.

    Given that the site is growing then the proportion of posters that want to come in and stir things up will also increase - that unfortunately will never change and so it is down to the Mods and regular members to identify and encourage them to modify their ways. If they don't or won't then they should get bounced but only after being given the opportunity to amend their ways. Going down that line means that all newbies should be given the benefit of the doubt and treated with respect until they show otherwise. That means that they should be posting more than one inflammatory or derogatory post before people start jumping on them

    I know that certain other sites try to say that PP.O is more of a teen site where members spend their time chatting about anything else apart from football. Of course we know different but maybe that aspect isn't coming through enough to weed out the posters that are more geared to non-football discussion. So I'd maybe say that the 'Latest Talk' only shows the last 10 topics in the 'Vikings and football talk' boards, the 'Free Beer' and also the 'Help' boards. That would cover the boards that people would expect for a site like this, from there posters could then look around the site to see what else there is. So it means that there is some emphasis on them to look around and see what the site has to offer.

    The boards are what the members that come here have made them but that does not mean that they should never change. As more people come in then they will bring subtle changes with them. When you look at boards from when they first started to the present then they are unrecognisable. So we need to allow the newbies time to develop and see what they can bring to the site as undoubtably some can offer things.

    The idea of thread rating is something I haven't come across before but I'm open to see if it could work here and maybe it would help knock off any threads that clearly are not what we'd expect for here. That way the person starting or trying to prolong it could see that they're not getting anyway with the membership and then either change the way they are posting or just ship out altogether.

    One other problem that we'll always come across on the board is that we have a group of members that are more 'senior' in terms of time on the board and obviously know each other well. With comes lots on in-jokes, banter etc between people but can lead to newer members getting confused, as they sometimes misinterpret what is meant with some posts. For example Cajun and myself will rag on each other regarding spelling - or his lack of :-) - but newer members might take offence at what is written and jump in. See what I'm getting at?
    so basically us more senior members have to be a little more careful as to what we post and allow for the fact that the others may not be used to our style or sense of humour

    In all though we have a great board and community here and I'm sure that it will continue that way, just allow for the odd hiccup along the way.
    Time spent annoying a Packer fan is never time wasted...


  8. #128
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    "V-Unit" wrote:
    My two cents.

    I hate that Bill Murray thing. For new posters it makes a very bad impression and is a very elitist thing. Some duplicate posters are flamers, but others simply don't know the rules yet. IMO its very offensive to open up your first new thread on this board, expecting a solid discussion on your topic, and instead get some dumb clock with people laughing at you.


    2. Even though I have HOF status, I have no idea what people on this board think of me. That is why I strongly reccomend a rating system that is frequently used by anybody who cares about the well being of this site IN A FAIR WAY. Good newcomers will feel much more welcome when they have high approval rating or they will respond to a bad rating by trying to create a more intelligent post. Those who whine about their bad rating are the ones we don't want on this board.
    I don't think the Bill Murray clock or the mention of a duplicate thread is offensive. It's just a message letting them know it is all ready being discussed. Perhaps Prophets clock should have pointed them to the thread that already is being discussed like mine do, instead of the "Posting 101 film" & in many cases I believe he did add the link, but they also need to be educated on forum etique which the video shows..

    Are peoples egos that fragile?

    IMO, It's the follow up comments after that, that may make them feel a little insecure about posting.

    After reading your first paragraph, I'm surprised you agree with the rating system though.

    IMO, a person can probably feel more unwanted easier by receiving a ton of negative ratings if he does the same thing. Especially when he doesn't know who they are coming from or who to "Ignore".

    The rating system won't give a reason behind why the negative rating was given so the author is left wondering why he received it & it might deter him from posting again.

    The duplicate thread reminder, may deter them from starting a new thread or at least to start looking before they do so, but I don't think it will deter them from posting other comments.

    I feel a rating system will.


    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #129
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    i think we should make a high counvil of pp.p.o 'ers that vote on all the happenings going on. i know it will never happen but i think it would be cool to be call High Councilmen Woo
    woo out
    just two corn cobs shy of a bushel

  10. #130
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    Re: For Our Site Leaders

    "AngloVike" wrote:
    Ok time for me to put my two pennyworth in on this, though reading through a lot of what I would say has already been said.

    Given that the site is growing then the proportion of posters that want to come in and stir things up will also increase - that unfortunately will never change and so it is down to the Mods and regular members to identify and encourage them to modify their ways. If they don't or won't then they should get bounced but only after being given the opportunity to amend their ways. Going down that line means that all newbies should be given the benefit of the doubt and treated with respect until they show otherwise. That means that they should be posting more than one inflammatory or derogatory post before people start jumping on them

    I know that certain other sites try to say that PP.O is more of a teen site where members spend their time chatting about anything else apart from football. Of course we know different but maybe that aspect isn't coming through enough to weed out the posters that are more geared to non-football discussion. So I'd maybe say that the 'Latest Talk' only shows the last 10 topics in the 'Vikings and football talk' boards, the 'Free Beer' and also the 'Help' boards. That would cover the boards that people would expect for a site like this, from there posters could then look around the site to see what else there is. So it means that there is some emphasis on them to look around and see what the site has to offer.

    The boards are what the members that come here have made them but that does not mean that they should never change. As more people come in then they will bring subtle changes with them. When you look at boards from when they first started to the present then they are unrecognisable. So we need to allow the newbies time to develop and see what they can bring to the site as undoubtably some can offer things.

    The idea of thread rating is something I haven't come across before but I'm open to see if it could work here and maybe it would help knock off any threads that clearly are not what we'd expect for here. That way the person starting or trying to prolong it could see that they're not getting anyway with the membership and then either change the way they are posting or just ship out altogether.

    One other problem that we'll always come across on the board is that we have a group of members that are more 'senior' in terms of time on the board and obviously know each other well. With comes lots on in-jokes, banter etc between people but can lead to newer members getting confused, as they sometimes misinterpret what is meant with some posts. For example Cajun and myself will rag on each other regarding spelling - or his lack of :-) - but newer members might take offence at what is written and jump in. See what I'm getting at?
    so basically us more senior members have to be a little more careful as to what we post and allow for the fact that the others may not be used to our style or sense of humour

    In all though we have a great board and community here and I'm sure that it will continue that way, just allow for the odd hiccup along the way.
    I take offense at your lack of understanding of how offense is spelled HERE!!!


    You could at least humor us when you are HERE by spelling the words "USA correct"!!!
    BANNED OR DEAD...I'LL TAKE EITHER ONE

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