Thread: lets face it

"bigbadragz" wrote:

good logic ultravike, why would i think the same players in teh same system with the same coach would at all reflect what kinda offense they could be.
my bad.
thanx for the news flash

The same players?
Sure...all of them?
I guess I should check.

Chilly has a year under his belt, I guess that is worth something.

"Prophet" wrote:

If I had to boil it down to only one point that we disagree on it will be Childress.
I am neutral, slightly toward negative on his coaching.
I cannot logically say he's good or bad at this point.
This is the first time i have seen the Vikings building a team from the ground up in a long time and I like it.
It appears to me that they are building for success and they are on their way.
They are not that far from making the transition.
Why?
optimism?
I say no.
It's because most teams I have seen in the history of the game that can stuff the run and control the TOP and have a successful ground game end up being contenders.
Those aspects of the team have already been accomplished.
Fill in some more holes and minimize penalities and they are on their way.
Sure, they could suck jiggly butt next year, but the things I see in the team and it's progress since the Green-Tice era in one year makes me excited.

yah i could see that.
at least the defense is relatively young so that if the offense does take time they will still be around.
i am probably being a bit harsh with childress after only one year, but he came off as stubborn with both sticking with johnson and not making any adjustments himself in game plans.
we came off as very easy to defend.
and my problem with the offense is the whole offense.
gameplan, talent, execution.
im mean when you're that bad you are doing everything wrong. our defense might get good enough this year to carry us alone, but obviously we need to get a wr who can get downfield.
and if we get that but we are still dumping balls off to moore on 3rd down then i'll really have cause to complain.
i just feel if we want t-jack to make real progress he's gonna need help.
or he might just turn into like a david carr.

you konw what i mean ultra, mostly the same players.
no additions that look impacting

"bigbadragz" wrote:

good logic ultravike, why would i think the same players in teh same system with the same coach would at all reflect what kinda offense they could be.
my bad.
thanx for the news flash

It's possible to discuss this rationally you know...

We won't have the same players next year.
That much should be obvious.
We have made major changes so far in FA on offense (release BJ, sign a decent TE, and a questionable WR), and the offseason is pretty young still.
We have both the draft and trades to continue to change out our personnel.

The coach is the same, but he is no longer a rookie.
He made mistakes last year, and I don't think anyone here will argue that point.
Next year is a better test for him.
See if he learns from his mistakes.
See if he can continue to improve in the areas he excelled at last year (and there were some - without rehashing some of the earlier posts, TOP is one of them, rushing is another).
There is no reason to think the the same coach will perform the same every year.

Same goes for the scheme.
If anything, the offense will get better because they are in the same scheme.
A new scheme isn't like putting on a different jersey.
It take a while to get used to.
The more complicated the new scheme, or the more differences between it and the old scheme, the longer it takes for players to get the hang of it.
The version of WCO that Childress is trying to install was a lot different than the run and gun scheme that Tice used.
And it is fairly complex.
This can only get better with time.

"bigbadragz" wrote:

"Prophet" wrote:

If I had to boil it down to only one point that we disagree on it will be Childress.
I am neutral, slightly toward negative on his coaching.
I cannot logically say he's good or bad at this point.
This is the first time i have seen the Vikings building a team from the ground up in a long time and I like it.
It appears to me that they are building for success and they are on their way.
They are not that far from making the transition.
Why?
optimism?
I say no.
It's because most teams I have seen in the history of the game that can stuff the run and control the TOP and have a successful ground game end up being contenders.
Those aspects of the team have already been accomplished.
Fill in some more holes and minimize penalities and they are on their way.
Sure, they could suck jiggly butt next year, but the things I see in the team and it's progress since the Green-Tice era in one year makes me excited.

yah i could see that.
at least the defense is relatively young so that if the offense does take time they will still be around.
i am probably being a bit harsh with childress after only one year, but he came off as stubborn with both sticking with johnson and not making any adjustments himself in game plans.
we came off as very easy to defend.
and my problem with the offense is the whole offense.
gameplan, talent, execution.
im mean when you're that bad you are doing everything wrong. our defense might get good enough this year to carry us alone, but obviously we need to get a wr who can get downfield.
and if we get that but we are still dumping balls off to moore on 3rd down then i'll really have cause to complain.
i just feel if we want t-jack to make real progress he's gonna need help.
or he might just turn into like a david carr.

Doesn't that go back to the original discussion?
We are in the beginning of FA and there were very few FAs worth drooling over.
The ones that did get signed go paid exorbitant contracts that bordered on insanity.
The Vikings have a reasonable amount of coin to toss around and there will be cap-hit casualties before the cap deadline, trades, and of course the draft.
There is no way that a bunch of fans are thinking the receiving corps sucks ass and the boys at Winter Park don't realize this.
There is also no way that the boys don't realize that TJack is a greenhorn.
There are plans in place and they are in motion.
Sit back and enjoy the ride.
Nothing that you or I say has any bearing on what happens.

One thing that you will see on this board, not unlike and NFL board I have ever posted on, is there is a huge range of fans and opinions.
The main reason this board rises abve the rest is because we have a sort of peer-reviewed system in place.
Anyone that pulls stuff out of their ass and treats it as fact will more than likely get called on it.

I agree prophet...I am not going to pay if owned an NFL team large sums of money to 2nd tier vets!

"bigbadragz" wrote:

you konw what i mean ultra, mostly the same players.
no additions that look impacting

Oh geez, FA is not done, there are trades, and the draft.
Give it some time.

"ultravikingfan" wrote:

"bigbadragz" wrote:

you konw what i mean ultra, mostly the same players.
no additions that look impacting

Oh geez, FA is not done, there are trades, and the draft.
Give it some time.

But I want it now
>

"NodakPaul" wrote:

"bigbadragz" wrote:

good logic ultravike, why would i think the same players in teh same system with the same coach would at all reflect what kinda offense they could be.
my bad.
thanx for the news flash

It's possible to discuss this rationally you know...

We won't have the same players next year.
That much should be obvious.
We have made major changes so far in FA on offense (release BJ, sign a decent TE, and a questionable WR), and the offseason is pretty young still.
We have both the draft and trades to continue to change out our personnel.

The coach is the same, but he is no longer a rookie.
He made mistakes last year, and I don't think anyone here will argue that point.
Next year is a better test for him.
See if he learns from his mistakes.
See if he can continue to improve in the areas he excelled at last year (and there were some - without rehashing some of the earlier posts, TOP is one of them, rushing is another).
There is no reason to think the the same coach will perform the same every year.

Same goes for the scheme.
If anything, the offense will get better because they are in the same scheme.
A new scheme isn't like putting on a different jersey.
It take a while to get used to.
The more complicated the new scheme, or the more differences between it and the old scheme, the longer it takes for players to get the hang of it.
The version of WCO that Childress is trying to install was a lot different than the run and gun scheme that Tice used.
And it is fairly complex.
This can only get better with time.

The main reason this board rises abve the rest is because we have a sort of peer-reviewed system in place.
Anyone that pulls stuff out of their jiggly butt and treats it as fact will more than likely get called on it.

that's cool prophet, but obviously i'm gonna depend my jiggly butt if i believe it to be right.
and i think that scheme thing is over-rated too, so many players change teams now and coordinators, everyone deals with that and some are effective and win and some suck like we did last year.
i mean tomlin inherited a defense that was improving, ie; end of 2005, but look at all the praise he got.
sean payton last year, new scheme, number 1 offense.
so i think that's a bit decieving.
the cupboard looks bare right now with guys that can come in and help us.
the draft will fill holes, but like alld drafts it's a crap shoot.
i was just hoping for nfl impact players to be added.
there werent alot out there, but there were worthy guards, tackles, wr's, tight ends that coulda helped.
i mean this shiancoe guy we really dont know what we have cuz he hasn't played much, childress pretty much such wade is a slot reciever for us at best.
not exactly overhauling the offense.
i really think a guy like calvin johnson alone can change our offense but it seems unlikely we'll get him

"bigbadragz" wrote:

i was just hoping for nfl impact players to be added.
there werent alot out there, but there were worthy guards, tackles, wr's, tight ends that coulda helped.

And here is the crux of our disagreement. I really don't think there were any guards, tackles, WRs or TEs that could have made an impact...at least not for more than one year.
Sometimes it isn't about just improving for the next season.
It is about setting the team on a path to continuous improvement.
Overpaying an aging, mediocre WR now would only hurt us next FA, when there is more talent out there.
And then we would be stuck with an old WR with a moster contract who no longer produces.