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  1. #81
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    You got the jist of it but missed the whole point.....

    It wasn't up to the Chiller to go trade up or not.
    It was up to Foley.
    They targeted 3 QB's in that draft as developmental projects.....

    a.
    Cutler - Viable option as a starter right away, solid as a second year starter.
    b.
    Clemens - 2 year project.
    c.
    TJ - Long term project.

    The way I read the tea leaves, Foley wouldn't give up what was asked so he decided to go get Clemens.
    Problem with that was he waited to long and the Jets snagged him. I believe that is what caused the huge fallout (shouting match) during the draft between Foley, Studwell and the Chiller as any fool who watches the draft stuff knew that the Jets were high on the kid.

    End result, we then had to move up and get the only other viable option for the staff.

    Again, not on the Chiller but he has failed in his duties as head coach and that is to get the kid ready to play.
    This edition of Marrdro's Story Hour was brought to you via a grant from the Exxon corporation.

    And from generous support from:



    =Z=
    Funny how you always chime in on criticisms of Foley.
    I am beginning to believe you have a touch of CSA over him my friend.
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #82
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    1. I fully blame Childress for selecting TJ. Always have, always will.
    Still blaming the HC and the HC only huh?


    OK, lets just assume that the HC scouts the players, goes to all thier workouts, watches all the tape on each and every player that could fit the scheme and then, if he has any time left at all, actually runs the draft and makes the gol 'darnit picks thereby circumventing the whole FO, what QB should have the Chiller drafted that year?

    [s]QB 1
    Matt Leinart SR 6-5/217/- USC Santa Ana, CA[/s]
    [s]QB 2
    Vince Young JR 6-5/233/- Texas Houston, TX[/s]
    [s]QB 3
    Jay Cutler SR 6-4/225/- Vanderbilt Lincoln City, IN[/s]
    QB 4
    Brodie Croyle SR 6-2.5/206/- Alabama Rainbow City, AL
    QB 5
    Charlie Whitehurst SR 6-4/215/4.75 Clemson Alpharetta, GA
    [s]QB 6
    Kellen Clemens SR 6-2/218/- Oregon Burns, OR[/s]
    QB 7
    Omar Jacobs JR 6-4/210/- Bowling Green Delray Beach, FL
    QB 8
    Ingle Martin SR 6-3/219/- Furman Nashville, TN
    QB 9
    Darrell Hackney SR 6-1/230/- UAB Atlanta, GA
    QB 10
    Reggie McNeal SR 6-2/206/- Texas A&M Lufkin, TX
    QB 11
    Bruce Gradkowski SR 6-2/210/- Toledo Pittsburgh, PA
    QB 12
    D.J. Shockley SR 6-1/206/- Georgia College Park, GA
    QB 13
    Brett Basanez SR 6-2/210/- Northwestern Arlington Hts, IL
    QB 14
    Erik Meyer SR 6-2/210/- Eastern Washington La Mirada, CA
    QB 15
    Paul Pinegar SR 6-4/220/- Fresno State Woodland, CA
    QB 16
    Travaris Jackson SR -/-/- Alabama State
    QB 17
    Nobody


    Comeon my friend, the Chiller has done lots of bonehead things during his tenure, but to sit here and continue with the idea "The HC is tied to the QB" thing is simply crazy talk.

    I suppose you blame Fisher for Drafting VY that year as well?

    :

    I put in the guy who would have been the best one.
    ;D
    LOL, I love the discussions about how bad this staff sucks at getting talent at the QB position but they continue to ignore one fact.


    The state of the NFL and its QB's is simply atrocious the last 5 years or so.
    IMHO its gonna continue to get worse as the collegiate ranks continue to move towards the "Spread" offenses.
    Gonna make it tough on staffs to determine if a cat will make a successfull transition to the next level and make the FA pool even slimmer as no team in their right mind will let one of any quality go.
    I am not going to argue that premise, but on the other hand for our staff to trade up and take a guy in the second that was projected as a 6th and then insert him in the offense in year one and shield him by not even opening up the job to competition was a bit suspect you must admit. And the speed with which they kicked him to the curb for a lifelong backup just adds to my wondering if they really know what they are doing and whether they have any game plan at all for the position.

    If the talent pool was that bad you certainly don't trade up an a reach and invest those types of resources in them.

  3. #83
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    1. I fully blame Childress for selecting TJ. Always have, always will.
    Still blaming the HC and the HC only huh?



    OK, lets just assume that the HC scouts the players, goes to all thier workouts, watches all the tape on each and every player that could fit the scheme and then, if he has any time left at all, actually runs the draft and makes the gol 'darnit picks thereby circumventing the whole FO, what QB should have the Chiller drafted that year?

    [s]QB 1
    Matt Leinart SR 6-5/217/- USC Santa Ana, CA[/s]
    [s]QB 2
    Vince Young JR 6-5/233/- Texas Houston, TX[/s]
    [s]QB 3
    Jay Cutler SR 6-4/225/- Vanderbilt Lincoln City, IN[/s]
    QB 4
    Brodie Croyle SR 6-2.5/206/- Alabama Rainbow City, AL
    QB 5
    Charlie Whitehurst SR 6-4/215/4.75 Clemson Alpharetta, GA
    [s]QB 6
    Kellen Clemens SR 6-2/218/- Oregon Burns, OR[/s]
    QB 7
    Omar Jacobs JR 6-4/210/- Bowling Green Delray Beach, FL
    QB 8
    Ingle Martin SR 6-3/219/- Furman Nashville, TN
    QB 9
    Darrell Hackney SR 6-1/230/- UAB Atlanta, GA
    QB 10
    Reggie McNeal SR 6-2/206/- Texas A&M Lufkin, TX
    QB 11
    Bruce Gradkowski SR 6-2/210/- Toledo Pittsburgh, PA
    QB 12
    D.J. Shockley SR 6-1/206/- Georgia College Park, GA
    QB 13
    Brett Basanez SR 6-2/210/- Northwestern Arlington Hts, IL
    QB 14
    Erik Meyer SR 6-2/210/- Eastern Washington La Mirada, CA
    QB 15
    Paul Pinegar SR 6-4/220/- Fresno State Woodland, CA
    QB 16
    Travaris Jackson SR -/-/- Alabama State
    QB 17
    Nobody


    Comeon my friend, the Chiller has done lots of bonehead things during his tenure, but to sit here and continue with the idea "The HC is tied to the QB" thing is simply crazy talk.

    I suppose you blame Fisher for Drafting VY that year as well?

    :

    I put in the guy who would have been the best one.
    ;D
    LOL, I love the discussions about how bad this staff sucks at getting talent at the QB position but they continue to ignore one fact.


    The state of the NFL and its QB's is simply atrocious the last 5 years or so.
    IMHO its gonna continue to get worse as the collegiate ranks continue to move towards the "Spread" offenses.
    Gonna make it tough on staffs to determine if a cat will make a successfull transition to the next level and make the FA pool even slimmer as no team in their right mind will let one of any quality go.
    I am not going to argue that premise, but on the other hand for our staff to trade up and take a guy in the second that was projected as a 6th and then insert him in the offense in year one and shield him by not even opening up the job to competition was a bit suspect you must admit. And the speed with which they kicked him to the curb for a lifelong backup just adds to my wondering if they really know what they are doing and whether they have any game plan at all for the position.

    If the talent pool was that bad you certainly don't trade up an a reach and invest those types of resources in them.
    Hold on a minute big guy.
    Do you for one minute really believe this organization wanted to go with TJ?
    I know some on here are convinced of that but I believe you know a bit more than most yutzs.

    If one were to look back at not only the draft and how it unfolded but the roster as well, one would realize that at that point and time we still believed that BJ was gonna get us through a year or two as the kid developed.

    Now, we know BJ wasn't the answer, only Garcia and possibly Warner could have been viable options with Garcia jetting directly to the Bucs and I am still a bit unsure if we even looked at Warner (I know I wouldn't have) based on his play before he went to the Cards.

    Long story short, back to the state of the NFL and its QB's, times are tough for front offices to find a good veteran guy to hold you over while the youngster develops and for coaches to get the young ones ready.

    As to the reasoning behind kicking him to the curb.
    I still don't think he is kicked to the curb.
    At some point we need to really look at what was going on with respect to our lame duck WR's.
    BB and El Syd were not 100% and we sure didn't have anyone out there that was gonna get any kindof seperation off the line/from the defenders which TJ felt comfortable to throw to.

    Answer......Put the savy vet in who could/would throw to a marginally covered reciever as TJ sure the hell wasn't gonna do it and risk a turnover.

    Now that BB is better/getting open and Rice seems to be getting his game legs, I wouldn't at all be suprised to see TJ back on the field before this season is over especially if Ole Gussy boy lays another egg like he did the last 2 games.

    Truth be told, I half expected TJ to come running out on the field at the start of the 4th quarter.


    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #84
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=V link=topic=36629.msg864408#msg864408 date=1226470304]
    1. I fully blame Childress for selecting TJ. Always have, always will.
    Still blaming the HC and the HC only huh?



    OK, lets just assume that the HC scouts the players, goes to all thier workouts, watches all the tape on each and every player that could fit the scheme and then, if he has any time left at all, actually runs the draft and makes the gol 'darnit picks thereby circumventing the whole FO, what QB should have the Chiller drafted that year?

    [s]QB 1
    Matt Leinart SR 6-5/217/- USC Santa Ana, CA[/s]
    [s]QB 2
    Vince Young JR 6-5/233/- Texas Houston, TX[/s]
    [s]QB 3
    Jay Cutler SR 6-4/225/- Vanderbilt Lincoln City, IN[/s]
    QB 4
    Brodie Croyle SR 6-2.5/206/- Alabama Rainbow City, AL
    QB 5
    Charlie Whitehurst SR 6-4/215/4.75 Clemson Alpharetta, GA
    [s]QB 6
    Kellen Clemens SR 6-2/218/- Oregon Burns, OR[/s]
    QB 7
    Omar Jacobs JR 6-4/210/- Bowling Green Delray Beach, FL
    QB 8
    Ingle Martin SR 6-3/219/- Furman Nashville, TN
    QB 9
    Darrell Hackney SR 6-1/230/- UAB Atlanta, GA
    QB 10
    Reggie McNeal SR 6-2/206/- Texas A&M Lufkin, TX
    QB 11
    Bruce Gradkowski SR 6-2/210/- Toledo Pittsburgh, PA
    QB 12
    D.J. Shockley SR 6-1/206/- Georgia College Park, GA
    QB 13
    Brett Basanez SR 6-2/210/- Northwestern Arlington Hts, IL
    QB 14
    Erik Meyer SR 6-2/210/- Eastern Washington La Mirada, CA
    QB 15
    Paul Pinegar SR 6-4/220/- Fresno State Woodland, CA
    QB 16
    Travaris Jackson SR -/-/- Alabama State
    QB 17
    Nobody


    Comeon my friend, the Chiller has done lots of bonehead things during his tenure, but to sit here and continue with the idea "The HC is tied to the QB" thing is simply crazy talk.

    I suppose you blame Fisher for Drafting VY that year as well?

    :

    I put in the guy who would have been the best one.
    ;D
    LOL, I love the discussions about how bad this staff sucks at getting talent at the QB position but they continue to ignore one fact.


    The state of the NFL and its QB's is simply atrocious the last 5 years or so.
    IMHO its gonna continue to get worse as the collegiate ranks continue to move towards the "Spread" offenses.
    Gonna make it tough on staffs to determine if a cat will make a successfull transition to the next level and make the FA pool even slimmer as no team in their right mind will let one of any quality go.
    I am not going to argue that premise, but on the other hand for our staff to trade up and take a guy in the second that was projected as a 6th and then insert him in the offense in year one and shield him by not even opening up the job to competition was a bit suspect you must admit. And the speed with which they kicked him to the curb for a lifelong backup just adds to my wondering if they really know what they are doing and whether they have any game plan at all for the position.

    If the talent pool was that bad you certainly don't trade up an a reach and invest those types of resources in them.
    Hold on a minute big guy.
    Do you for one minute really believe this organization wanted to go with TJ?
    I know some on here are convinced of that but I believe you know a bit more than most yutzs.

    If one were to look back at not only the draft and how it unfolded but the roster as well, one would realize that at that point and time we still believed that BJ was gonna get us through a year or two as the kid developed.

    Now, we know BJ wasn't the answer, only Garcia and possibly Warner could have been viable options with Garcia jetting directly to the Bucs and I am still a bit unsure if we even looked at Warner (I know I wouldn't have) based on his play before he went to the Cards.

    Long story short, back to the state of the NFL and its QB's, times are tough for front offices to find a good veteran guy to hold you over while the youngster develops and for coaches to get the young ones ready.

    As to the reasoning behind kicking him to the curb.
    I still don't think he is kicked to the curb.
    At some point we need to really look at what was going on with respect to our lame duck WR's.
    BB and El Syd were not 100% and we sure didn't have anyone out there that was gonna get any kindof seperation off the line/from the defenders which TJ felt comfortable to throw to.

    Answer......Put the savy vet in who could/would throw to a marginally covered reciever as TJ sure the hell wasn't gonna do it and risk a turnover.

    Now that BB is better/getting open and Rice seems to be getting his game legs, I wouldn't at all be suprised to see TJ back on the field before this season is over especially if Ole Gussy boy lays another egg like he did the last 2 games.
    Truth be told, I half expected TJ to come running out on the field at the start of the 4th quarter.




    [/quote]

    I would. TJ was not able to establish any kind of rapport with Berrian, and Chilly clearly said that he's not going to hop back and forth between QBs this season.

    If Gus' game against Houston was an egg, then TJ has chicks aplenty. Gus is an average QB, and I expect him to struggle against good defenses.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  5. #85
    ragz's Avatar
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "V" wrote:
    "ragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "ragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    [quote author=ragz link=topic=36629.msg863928#msg863928 date=1226383203]
    [quote author=V link=topic=36629.msg863497#msg863497 date=1226340749]
    [quote author=ragz link=topic=36629.msg863476#msg863476 date=1226337520]
    this kid is a gamer, but again, way too many quick triggers around here.
    lets settle down a bit.
    i will say this though for all the people who defend childress.
    you see what happens when you are a bad team and you have nothing to lose so you let your guy go out there and play?
    if i had to guess it probably is helpful in his development and in building confidence.
    something i haven't seen much of on this team.
    and as time goes on also, it weeds out the good players from the bad.
    protecting players or asking them to do nothing answer no questions and leave you with mediocre veteran qbs at the helm.
    Umm, that is exactly what we did with TJ. It resulted in slow development and loss of confidence.

    Also, we are not a bad team.
    i'm sorry, we're you watching the same games i was?
    i didn't see him play.
    i saw him asked to handoff and dump balls to tes and rbs.
    i didnt see him drop back and throw the ball 30-40 times, unless we were losing by 2-3 scores in the 4th quarter.
    much different than what i was talking about.
    and you know what thigpen did in his first start, threw a bunch of picks for tds and was horrendous.
    thats what you have to live with sometimes to get the games like he had yesterday.
    its called development.
    not hiding your qb within an offense as if that is at all possible.
    you dont learn much about him, and he dont learn much about anything either.
    the point is, much different approaches to how they are being used.

    but we werent a bad team so childress felt like he had to make sure he didnt kill us.
    that worked out well.
    First of all, I wasn't talking about this year, I was talking about when we first put TJ in during the 2006 season. 16 starts later and he still wasn't worth a poo. You can barely compare that to Thigpen, who was putting together solid games in his fifth start.

    Secondly, it did work out well. 5-2 since TJ got benched.

    We have lost every game in which TJ attempted more than 30 passes. We hid him because he needed to be hidden.
    we lost all the games he threw 30 passes cuz he didn't throw the ball until we were down by 2 scores in the 2nd half.
    and how many times was it he threw 30 or more passes, i think 4 times.
    and im pretty sure it was all games we were down by 2 or more scores late in the game.
    not exactly a formula for success.
    but i'm sure the expectation was that he should have lead us back in all those games, which he did in a few, even though you dont wanna let him participate in any other scenarios to much of an extent.
    and your right, jackson had no solid games ever.
    amazing how little people chose to remember as long as it proves their point.
    he had his share of solid games and with very little chance to throw more than 25 passes a game.
    he was doing what they were asking him to do, not having him go out and sling it around like thigpen was able to do this week.
    but i guess thats jacksons fault too.


    this is how i would coach a qb.
    have him barely throw in most games, especially in the first half of games, and then when the game is slipping away heading into 4th quarters tell him to go out there and win it for us.
    great coaching.
    1. If Jackson was any good at all, maybe we would not have been down by two scores in the first place.
    2. TJ has won us one game in which we were down by two scores. His stats: 18/29, 249 yards, 0 TDs, 3 INTs. The logic is simple. He can't throw, so the coaches don't make him, until of course they are forced to, which as you say, never works. If we were to use your logic, he would throw us the game away, a la the 20-17 loss to Detroit last year.
    3. KC's running game is nothing like ours. Our offense relies on our strengths. Duh.
    4. Look at how Thigpen starts the game when they asked him to throw. He came out on FIRE and he earned the right to throw more. TJ came out FLAT time after time after time.

    Thigpen simply grew into a QB very rapidly, while TJ has shown very little progress. We tried to work TJ into the game easily, just as the Chiefs did with Thigpen, but the light never turned on in TJ's head.
    [/quote]
    1.if you are down by two scores and have been asked to throw very few passes cuz you are trying to win with defense and the running game thats hardly a qbs fault, but a philosphys fault.
    and the coaches put in a qb and named him their starter for 2 years cuz he couldnt throw, and thats why they didnt call pass plays cuz of that.
    well if thats the case your buddy childress is a genius.


    2.and that detroit game was his 4th start and
    even with his picks which were in no way as detrimental to our team as ferrottes, he had us with a chance to win until bollinger came in and ran a handful of plays and fumbled the game away.
    and the denver game chester taylor fumbled the ball out of the back of the endzone in the first half, and williamson dropped a perfectly thrown ball for a 60 yard td.
    but thats jackson fault too.


    3.thats not the point, good running game or not, terrible qb or not, throwing 7 passes in a half of several games is just not good playcalling and explains why you go into halves behind.


    4.and your right, he never came out and threw a 60 yard bomb to sidney rice on the opening play of the giant game, or had any games within the 8 games he won, including a 5 game win streak where he was efficient and wasn't throwing 3 picks.
    when thigpen came out and threw picks all over the place against the falcons and larry johnson was playing, you think they called 7 pass plays for him, or did they run their offense and hoped he was well prepared.
    again, you are being selective.
    everyone knows jackson had bad games, hes a young player, but you wanna ignore anytime he played well, and the fact that they weren't asking him to do what thigpen did this past week.
    but if you wanna crown, crown em.


    [/quote]

    1. I fully blame Childress for selecting TJ. Always have, always will. The difference is you blame Chilly for selecting TJ blame him again for not using him "correctly." TJ sucks. He had plenty of chances, and throwing more is not going to make him better. There is no way to use TJ "correctly". I give Chilly credit for trying to right a previous wrong. If that makes him my buddy, so be it.

    2. His picks were certainly just as detrimental as Gus. To suggest otherwise truly shows how biased you are. We lost the Detroit game because of Jackson's horrible play. Chilldress did exactly what you call for that game. He opened up the offense and let TJ throw it. He sucked it was the result, yet you ask for that to happen again. Denver is not TJ's fault, but it certainly helps the argument that TJ is not able to lead an offense, especially when it needs to score.

    3. If TJ was able to convert his throws, he certainly would have had more than 7 passes. I think we had 7 passes and 15 runs that half, which is very close to what we are still doing. Also, we were leading at the half...

    4. My point exactly! TJ was the best when he was barely used. 10/12, 129 yards, 1 TD. That is a good day by TJ standards. That was how we tried to use him this year, but he stunk it up. And with Thigpen and the Atlanta game, you are contradicting yourself. Only reason KC kept on throwing because they got themselves behind by two scores early, which is when we let TJ throw, remember?

    TJ and Thigpen, are just two totally different QBs. Saying TJ would be as good as Thigpen if used in the same way is nothing mroe than a guess. Thigpen needed a year in the league and he has proved worthy of a starting stint. TJ looks like he needed years on the bench before worthy of the same.

    This started with you saying we should have used the "sink or swim" approach with TJ. We did! He sunk! Get Over It!
    [/quote]
    1. plenty of chances?
    is that a joke?
    you would be a great developer of talent.
    and yah that makes so much sense not throwing the ball in game situations.
    why would throwing the ball help a qb?
    you got me again.
    and another bold statement after 16 starts, there is no way to use jackson correctly.
    yah i'm the biased one.
    i say i think he has potential, and you say for sure he is worth nothing.
    okay then.

    2.
    wrong, wrong, wrong.
    you see there are different kinds of turnovers V.
    the ones that are so bad it leads directly to other teams scoring, and sometimes there are balls you throw up and get picked that turn out kidna like punts.
    quite a difference in how it hurts your team.
    and it was his 4th career start.
    what's ferrottes excuse for 7 within a 2 game period?
    and that statement about the denver game makes no sense, he can't lead a team to score?
    he basically scored all 16 of our points to tie the game in the 4th quarter and send it to overtime.
    almost did the same thing in the green bay game, almost 3 scores, again with not a whole lot help from special teams or the defense.
    but as usual cuz of my bias, hes getting all the blame.

    3.
    yah i believe he completed 4 and 3 in the most previous games he threw 7 passes in the first half.
    i guess he has to go 100 percent for him to get more chances.
    another sweet argument.
    and show me a game where ferrotte had 7 first half attempts.
    some of ferrottes halves attempts were around jacksons whole game attempts.
    but i'm sure its his fault cuz he blows.


    4.
    ha ha ha ha.
    the reason why kc was down by 2 scores to atlanta was becuz thigpen came out turning the ball over like crazy so your theory is wrong.
    and no qb is best when they are barely used, cuz its just a matter of time before your offense is too easy to defend.

    actually thigpen and jackson are not that different, but they are being used different.
    thigpen has had deeper drops, more time to survey the field and extend plays with his legs.
    most of jacksons throws were of the quick nature, many time three step drops.
    to me not exactly using him to his strenght, not to mention the big arm and long delivery that is probably not very condusive to throws under 10 yards.
    in the end you are the one that wants to jump all over things good or bad in a heart beat.
    thigpen is phenominal and gonna be a great nfl qb after a handful of starts.
    jackson has a handful more starts and hes terrible and will never amount to anything.
    its just kinda ridiculous.
    "self improvement's masturbation.
    now self destruction" that's enlightenment

  6. #86
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    Haven't read much of this thread... seeing Thigpen succeed makes me have a somewhat ill feeling inside.

    I'm glad we went with Jackson...

    eh...
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  7. #87
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "ragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "ragz" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "ragz" wrote:
    [quote author=V link=topic=36629.msg864329#msg864329 date=1226455425]
    [quote author=ragz link=topic=36629.msg863928#msg863928 date=1226383203]
    [quote author=V link=topic=36629.msg863497#msg863497 date=1226340749]
    [quote author=ragz link=topic=36629.msg863476#msg863476 date=1226337520]
    this kid is a gamer, but again, way too many quick triggers around here.
    lets settle down a bit.
    i will say this though for all the people who defend childress.
    you see what happens when you are a bad team and you have nothing to lose so you let your guy go out there and play?
    if i had to guess it probably is helpful in his development and in building confidence.
    something i haven't seen much of on this team.
    and as time goes on also, it weeds out the good players from the bad.
    protecting players or asking them to do nothing answer no questions and leave you with mediocre veteran qbs at the helm.
    Umm, that is exactly what we did with TJ. It resulted in slow development and loss of confidence.

    Also, we are not a bad team.
    i'm sorry, we're you watching the same games i was?
    i didn't see him play.
    i saw him asked to handoff and dump balls to tes and rbs.
    i didnt see him drop back and throw the ball 30-40 times, unless we were losing by 2-3 scores in the 4th quarter.
    much different than what i was talking about.
    and you know what thigpen did in his first start, threw a bunch of picks for tds and was horrendous.
    thats what you have to live with sometimes to get the games like he had yesterday.
    its called development.
    not hiding your qb within an offense as if that is at all possible.
    you dont learn much about him, and he dont learn much about anything either.
    the point is, much different approaches to how they are being used.

    but we werent a bad team so childress felt like he had to make sure he didnt kill us.
    that worked out well.
    First of all, I wasn't talking about this year, I was talking about when we first put TJ in during the 2006 season. 16 starts later and he still wasn't worth a poo. You can barely compare that to Thigpen, who was putting together solid games in his fifth start.

    Secondly, it did work out well. 5-2 since TJ got benched.

    We have lost every game in which TJ attempted more than 30 passes. We hid him because he needed to be hidden.
    we lost all the games he threw 30 passes cuz he didn't throw the ball until we were down by 2 scores in the 2nd half.
    and how many times was it he threw 30 or more passes, i think 4 times.
    and im pretty sure it was all games we were down by 2 or more scores late in the game.
    not exactly a formula for success.
    but i'm sure the expectation was that he should have lead us back in all those games, which he did in a few, even though you dont wanna let him participate in any other scenarios to much of an extent.
    and your right, jackson had no solid games ever.
    amazing how little people chose to remember as long as it proves their point.
    he had his share of solid games and with very little chance to throw more than 25 passes a game.
    he was doing what they were asking him to do, not having him go out and sling it around like thigpen was able to do this week.
    but i guess thats jacksons fault too.


    this is how i would coach a qb.
    have him barely throw in most games, especially in the first half of games, and then when the game is slipping away heading into 4th quarters tell him to go out there and win it for us.
    great coaching.
    1. If Jackson was any good at all, maybe we would not have been down by two scores in the first place.
    2. TJ has won us one game in which we were down by two scores. His stats: 18/29, 249 yards, 0 TDs, 3 INTs. The logic is simple. He can't throw, so the coaches don't make him, until of course they are forced to, which as you say, never works. If we were to use your logic, he would throw us the game away, a la the 20-17 loss to Detroit last year.
    3. KC's running game is nothing like ours. Our offense relies on our strengths. Duh.
    4. Look at how Thigpen starts the game when they asked him to throw. He came out on FIRE and he earned the right to throw more. TJ came out FLAT time after time after time.

    Thigpen simply grew into a QB very rapidly, while TJ has shown very little progress. We tried to work TJ into the game easily, just as the Chiefs did with Thigpen, but the light never turned on in TJ's head.
    [/quote]
    1.if you are down by two scores and have been asked to throw very few passes cuz you are trying to win with defense and the running game thats hardly a qbs fault, but a philosphys fault.
    and the coaches put in a qb and named him their starter for 2 years cuz he couldnt throw, and thats why they didnt call pass plays cuz of that.
    well if thats the case your buddy childress is a genius.


    2.and that detroit game was his 4th start and
    even with his picks which were in no way as detrimental to our team as ferrottes, he had us with a chance to win until bollinger came in and ran a handful of plays and fumbled the game away.
    and the denver game chester taylor fumbled the ball out of the back of the endzone in the first half, and williamson dropped a perfectly thrown ball for a 60 yard td.
    but thats jackson fault too.


    3.thats not the point, good running game or not, terrible qb or not, throwing 7 passes in a half of several games is just not good playcalling and explains why you go into halves behind.


    4.and your right, he never came out and threw a 60 yard bomb to sidney rice on the opening play of the giant game, or had any games within the 8 games he won, including a 5 game win streak where he was efficient and wasn't throwing 3 picks.
    when thigpen came out and threw picks all over the place against the falcons and larry johnson was playing, you think they called 7 pass plays for him, or did they run their offense and hoped he was well prepared.
    again, you are being selective.
    everyone knows jackson had bad games, hes a young player, but you wanna ignore anytime he played well, and the fact that they weren't asking him to do what thigpen did this past week.
    but if you wanna crown, crown em.


    [/quote]

    1. I fully blame Childress for selecting TJ. Always have, always will. The difference is you blame Chilly for selecting TJ blame him again for not using him "correctly." TJ sucks. He had plenty of chances, and throwing more is not going to make him better. There is no way to use TJ "correctly". I give Chilly credit for trying to right a previous wrong. If that makes him my buddy, so be it.

    2. His picks were certainly just as detrimental as Gus. To suggest otherwise truly shows how biased you are. We lost the Detroit game because of Jackson's horrible play. Chilldress did exactly what you call for that game. He opened up the offense and let TJ throw it. He sucked it was the result, yet you ask for that to happen again. Denver is not TJ's fault, but it certainly helps the argument that TJ is not able to lead an offense, especially when it needs to score.

    3. If TJ was able to convert his throws, he certainly would have had more than 7 passes. I think we had 7 passes and 15 runs that half, which is very close to what we are still doing. Also, we were leading at the half...

    4. My point exactly! TJ was the best when he was barely used. 10/12, 129 yards, 1 TD. That is a good day by TJ standards. That was how we tried to use him this year, but he stunk it up. And with Thigpen and the Atlanta game, you are contradicting yourself. Only reason KC kept on throwing because they got themselves behind by two scores early, which is when we let TJ throw, remember?

    TJ and Thigpen, are just two totally different QBs. Saying TJ would be as good as Thigpen if used in the same way is nothing mroe than a guess. Thigpen needed a year in the league and he has proved worthy of a starting stint. TJ looks like he needed years on the bench before worthy of the same.

    This started with you saying we should have used the "sink or swim" approach with TJ. We did! He sunk! Get Over It!
    [/quote]
    1. plenty of chances?
    is that a joke?
    you would be a great developer of talent.
    and yah that makes so much sense not throwing the ball in game situations.
    why would throwing the ball help a qb?
    you got me again.
    and another bold statement after 16 starts, there is no way to use jackson correctly.
    yah i'm the biased one.
    i say i think he has potential, and you say for sure he is worth nothing.
    okay then.

    2.
    wrong, wrong, wrong.
    you see there are different kinds of turnovers V.
    the ones that are so bad it leads directly to other teams scoring, and sometimes there are balls you throw up and get picked that turn out kidna like punts.
    quite a difference in how it hurts your team.
    and it was his 4th career start.
    what's ferrottes excuse for 7 within a 2 game period?
    and that statement about the denver game makes no sense, he can't lead a team to score?
    he basically scored all 16 of our points to tie the game in the 4th quarter and send it to overtime.
    almost did the same thing in the green bay game, almost 3 scores, again with not a whole lot help from special teams or the defense.
    but as usual cuz of my bias, hes getting all the blame.

    3.
    yah i believe he completed 4 and 3 in the most previous games he threw 7 passes in the first half.
    i guess he has to go 100 percent for him to get more chances.
    another sweet argument.
    and show me a game where ferrotte had 7 first half attempts.
    some of ferrottes halves attempts were around jacksons whole game attempts.
    but i'm sure its his fault cuz he blows.


    4.
    ha ha ha ha.
    the reason why kc was down by 2 scores to atlanta was becuz thigpen came out turning the ball over like crazy so your theory is wrong.
    and no qb is best when they are barely used, cuz its just a matter of time before your offense is too easy to defend.

    actually thigpen and jackson are not that different, but they are being used different.
    thigpen has had deeper drops, more time to survey the field and extend plays with his legs.
    most of jacksons throws were of the quick nature, many time three step drops.
    to me not exactly using him to his strenght, not to mention the big arm and long delivery that is probably not very condusive to throws under 10 yards.
    in the end you are the one that wants to jump all over things good or bad in a heart beat.
    thigpen is phenominal and gonna be a great nfl qb after a handful of starts.
    jackson has a handful more starts and hes terrible and will never amount to anything.
    its just kinda ridiculous.

    [/quote]

    1. 16 starts. 2 full offseasons as the starter. How is that not plenty of chances? There have been QBs with much shorter leashes than TJ's. I simply think he would start showing some of his potential in his third year. If you want to wait till year 4, congrats, you get to.

    2. I'm pretty sure we are comparing Jackson to Thigpen in this thread. It was his sixth career start, and a pick is a pick is a pick. The biggest crime of an int is that it takes your offense off of the field, and all INTs have that trait. Thigpen threw 3 picks in his first career start and hasn't thrown a pick since. That is a far cry from TJ's performance.

    3. I'm pretty sure we are comparing Jackson to Thigpen here, not Frerotte. As I said before they warmed their QB up before letting him loose,just as we did with TJ, who never warmed up. Thigpen is going 6-7 with a TD pass in his first 7 attempts, TJ was throwing five-yard outs at the receiver's feet. The difference is crystal clear.

    4. I'm pretty sure if you asked the KC coaches about how they approached the Atlanta game, they would have said we shouldn't have put so much on our young QB. Thier pass pass pass early strategy failed. Chilly tried to employ a working strategy, but it failed because TJ wasn't up to the task.

    TJ and Thigpen are completely different. They are being used differently because they are different. As you said, their growth has been completely different. I'm not ready to crown Thigpen, or completely bury TJ (his head is still above, everything else below) but there is no reason to believe that using the TJ the way KC has used Thigpen would garner similar results. If anything, the sink or swim mentality produced different results. TJ played best when he was sparingly used.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  8. #88
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "Marrdro" wrote:

    Hold on a minute big guy.
    Do you for one minute really believe this organization wanted to go with TJ?
    I know some on here are convinced of that but I believe you know a bit more than most yutzs.

    If one were to look back at not only the draft and how it unfolded but the roster as well, one would realize that at that point and time we still believed that BJ was gonna get us through a year or two as the kid developed.

    Now, we know BJ wasn't the answer, only Garcia and possibly Warner could have been viable options with Garcia jetting directly to the Bucs and I am still a bit unsure if we even looked at Warner (I know I wouldn't have) based on his play before he went to the Cards.

    Long story short, back to the state of the NFL and its QB's, times are tough for front offices to find a good veteran guy to hold you over while the youngster develops and for coaches to get the young ones ready.

    As to the reasoning behind kicking him to the curb.
    I still don't think he is kicked to the curb.
    At some point we need to really look at what was going on with respect to our lame duck WR's.
    BB and El Syd were not 100% and we sure didn't have anyone out there that was gonna get any kindof seperation off the line/from the defenders which TJ felt comfortable to throw to.

    Answer......Put the savy vet in who could/would throw to a marginally covered reciever as TJ sure the hell wasn't gonna do it and risk a turnover.

    Now that BB is better/getting open and Rice seems to be getting his game legs, I wouldn't at all be suprised to see TJ back on the field before this season is over especially if Ole Gussy boy lays another egg like he did the last 2 games.

    Truth be told, I half expected TJ to come running out on the field at the start of the 4th quarter.


    Truth be told I am not sure this staff would recognize a quality QB if he bitch slapped them up side the head.

    Furthermore if they did get lucky and get one by accident I am not convinced that they could bring him up to speed without ruining him.

    Whether they wanted to start him or not and whether they were counting on Johnson to last for 2 years does not diminish the fact that they traded up to get a QB who was not worth the pick then or now and they also committed to him to the point of not going after other QB's that would have been better for the team at this time.

  9. #89
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:

    Hold on a minute big guy.
    Do you for one minute really believe this organization wanted to go with TJ?
    I know some on here are convinced of that but I believe you know a bit more than most yutzs.

    If one were to look back at not only the draft and how it unfolded but the roster as well, one would realize that at that point and time we still believed that BJ was gonna get us through a year or two as the kid developed.

    Now, we know BJ wasn't the answer, only Garcia and possibly Warner could have been viable options with Garcia jetting directly to the Bucs and I am still a bit unsure if we even looked at Warner (I know I wouldn't have) based on his play before he went to the Cards.

    Long story short, back to the state of the NFL and its QB's, times are tough for front offices to find a good veteran guy to hold you over while the youngster develops and for coaches to get the young ones ready.

    As to the reasoning behind kicking him to the curb.
    I still don't think he is kicked to the curb.
    At some point we need to really look at what was going on with respect to our lame duck WR's.
    BB and El Syd were not 100% and we sure didn't have anyone out there that was gonna get any kindof seperation off the line/from the defenders which TJ felt comfortable to throw to.

    Answer......Put the savy vet in who could/would throw to a marginally covered reciever as TJ sure the hell wasn't gonna do it and risk a turnover.

    Now that BB is better/getting open and Rice seems to be getting his game legs, I wouldn't at all be suprised to see TJ back on the field before this season is over especially if Ole Gussy boy lays another egg like he did the last 2 games.

    Truth be told, I half expected TJ to come running out on the field at the start of the 4th quarter.



    Truth be told I am not sure this staff would recognize a quality QB if he bitch slapped them up side the head.

    Furthermore if they did get lucky and get one by accident I am not convinced that they could bring him up to speed without ruining him.

    Whether they wanted to start him or not and whether they were counting on Johnson to last for 2 years does not diminish the fact that they traded up to get a QB who was not worth the pick then or now and they also committed to him to the point of not going after other QB's that would have been better for the team at this time.
    Now that post I can agree with.
    I know I stick up for Childress fro now but I totally agree with this.
    Trading up to take TJ was a stretch and they did committ to him way too early.

  10. #90
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    Re: Tyler Thigpen - A steal as a 7th round pick?

    I still say that even that even though the staff is developmentally challenged, they still fucked up when they kept Bollinger and holcolm on the roster and exposed him to the rest of the league. He looks better than anything we have had on the roster in the last 3 years right now.

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