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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "V4L" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=V4L link=topic=48504.msg851680#msg851680 date=1223915561]
    Yes our zone blocking is bad

    Del Rio has said it I believe.. And he is the most knowlegable on here with line play

    From what I saw our guys are having a hard time getting a lid on someone

    It would be easier for them to take on guys one on one and try to move to the next level IMO, Birk and Hutch are great at it
    I never disagree with Del, however, I am not sure that is what he said.

    Regardless, it isn't the scheme that is being run but rather what the blocking assignements are based on the C/QB pre-snap read.

    If they are seeing blitz and audible out of thier play because of it then the team doesn't blitz, end result is a bad offensive play.

    Get that little issue straightened out and the blocking scheme, that is transparent to most fans, won't even be discussed.
    Yah, idk if it was him that said it.. But they got pretty in depth

    But when you fail to open holes in run plays.. And can't pick up a blitz or even a 4 man rush then there is a huge problem

    Idk what it is. I dont know much about line play... But it was very clear that there weren't many holes.. And we couldn't hold a pocket

    Idk if its the scheme or just the players.. But it was bad
    That is what I think too.
    Something is wrong.
    It is probably a combination of the scheme and the players.
    But either way it needs to be fixed.
    Get Ryan "The Revolving Door" Cook out of there for one.
    And stop adding finesse co-op blocks on passing plays.
    Save that crap for the running plays.
    There you are my friend....... ;D

    I wish I could get a microphone on both Birk and Gus so I could hear what they are saying, however, I am 100 percent convinced they are struggling reading what the D is showing.

    I often wonder what the hell the coaches are doing during the week related to watching tape and the tendancies of the upcoming team in an effort to help them with that.

    Again hard to tell but it looked to me that they audibled quite a few times (I have 7 in my notes) into passing plays when the D actually had a blitz dialed up.
    I saw that too a couple of times.
    From my vantage I didn't see 7, but I will watch it at home tonight.
    And that is a contribution to the problem as well.

    So if the center and QB can't read the defenses, what are your options.
    One option could be installing a simpler scheme that doesn't have complex blocking patterns... Just my thought.

    I have given Childress and his offensive scheme - every aspect of it - 2.5 years to get it right.
    I am now convinced that it is a failure.
    I am not against zone blocking in general.
    I am opposed to the way Childress has installed it.
    [/quote]
    I hear ya my friend.

    I think a few things have contributed to the issue, especially this year.

    a.
    QB, or atleast the change to QB. TJ's inexperience and remember Gus is still pretty new in the offense which we all agree is pretty complex, however, as I said, I see indicators that he is getting it.
    5th highest passer this weekend is a good indicator my friend.

    b.
    Center.
    I still say Birk should have put in the extra time watching film if not during the whole offseason at least starting with OTA's.
    That stance doesn't get alot of support by most on here but I am convinced his play isn't as good some think.

    c. Other teams Defense. Obviously they are seeing something on tape that has given the a trend or at least some insight into our OL play that allows them not to tip thier hand.

    Again, IMHO all three are something that can be coached out with maybe item "b" being the hardest of the 3. If Matt can't execute the scheme then it is time for him to go.

    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #22
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    Are we serious here? Yes Detroit has given up tons of rushing yardage, but they clearly made a point to stop it, and still gave up 135 yards on the ground.

    Thier gameplan was simple. Stop the run (they didn't do it), force them to pass (Gus was great when he had time).

    The problem with the OL was the pass blocking side of things, otherwise they played ok considereing the circumstances. Also, why are we ignoring that TOs killed us. Is that on the OL?

    When it comes to Zone vs. man blocking I don't really care as long as we are effective running the ball, and we were. Sooner or later we are going to have to realize that 100+ day for AD when teams are loading up in the box like that is still pretty impressive.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
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    Thanks Josdin!

  3. #23
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    What none of knows is who is really at the root of the problem. We do know through observation that something is wrong and has been wrong since Childress took over.

    At first the opinion was that it would take some games for the offense to Gel. Then when that didn't happen all of a sudden it was that we had no talent, then when we went out and got different talent it is that the defenses are keying on the offensive tendencies.

    personally I think the whole thing can be traced back to the system that was installed and the coaches refusal or inability to adjust to the changing personnel on the team.

  4. #24
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    Defenses definitely seem to have not only watched our tapes, but dialed in just what to do to crush our OL.
    AP has had to work extremely hard for nearly every yard all year.
    Basically, as pointed out in last weeks tirades, the zone blitz (8 or 9 in the box) effectively eliminates our short passing game (esp. screens) AND takes a lot of the ooomph our of our running game, leaving us with nothing but deep passes that are open to WRs who aren't getting all that open vs. man coverage (IMHO at least partially the fault of boring routes, and partrially ability/speed etc) and routinely drop balls even if they are open.

    As I recall, we run a hybrid zone/man blocking scheme...Zone for running plays and man for passing?
    Perhaps, as complex as our system is, it is exactly what ends up making our playcalling look so vanilla so often.
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

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  5. #25
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    "V" wrote:
    Are we serious here? Yes Detroit has given up tons of rushing yardage, but they clearly made a point to stop it, and still gave up 135 yards on the ground.

    Thier gameplan was simple. Stop the run (they didn't do it), force them to pass (Gus was great when he had time).

    The problem with the OL was the pass blocking side of things, otherwise they played ok considereing the circumstances. Also, why are we ignoring that TOs killed us. Is that on the OL?

    When it comes to Zone vs. man blocking I don't really care as long as we are effective running the ball, and we were. Sooner or later we are going to have to realize that 100+ day for AD when teams are loading up in the box like that is still pretty impressive.
    We may be spoiled but the fact that AD's longest was 13 yards is what we aren't expecting.
    We want to see the big one.
    Which we may see if the passing game continues to improve and 8 men in the box becomes an occasional play and not a regular play.

    If AD can get 100 verus the Bears, then I'll believe.
    But again the Bears might have enough confidence in their front 7 that they won't put the 8th in the box.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    "gagarr" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    Are we serious here? Yes Detroit has given up tons of rushing yardage, but they clearly made a point to stop it, and still gave up 135 yards on the ground.

    Thier gameplan was simple. Stop the run (they didn't do it), force them to pass (Gus was great when he had time).

    The problem with the OL was the pass blocking side of things, otherwise they played ok considereing the circumstances. Also, why are we ignoring that TOs killed us. Is that on the OL?

    When it comes to Zone vs. man blocking I don't really care as long as we are effective running the ball, and we were. Sooner or later we are going to have to realize that 100+ day for AD when teams are loading up in the box like that is still pretty impressive.
    We may be spoiled but the fact that AD's longest was 13 yards is what we aren't expecting.
    We want to see the big one.
    Which we may see if the passing game continues to improve and 8 men in the box becomes an occasional play and not a regular play.

    If AD can get 100 verus the Bears, then I'll believe.
    But again the Bears might have enough confidence in their front 7 that they won't put the 8th in the box.
    It seems to me that he had >200 on the ground last year when they played.
    Oh yeah, that doesn't count.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  7. #27
    Del Rio is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    Looking at the lineplay and the games its really simple and has been stated many times over. They stack the box. They say we are going to shut the run down period. End of story.

    I dont care if you zone block, if you man up, if you strafe, pull, double, chip....if you have more defense then you have offense your not going to be getting much running room.

    When the box is stacked you need clear definition of who has who, you need your WR's to actually block. Right now our WR's either try to draw them away by blazing up the field, or they go put a hand on the CB's back as they plow into our RB.

    First of all the CB's dont make a run pass read on the WR, they make it on a lineman, most likely the tackle. SO trying to fool them by blazing down the field doesnt do shit. Second they need to help block.

    Most importantly we need to get better and better at the passing attack to make these defenses play true. Even at the college level you can take something away if you want, you sacrafice other things but you can take away anything you want, right now teams are taking away the run. If the risk involved is less then the payoff of containing our run game then its a no brainer and right now that is obviously the case.
    If you promise to be smarter, I will promise to be nicer.

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  8. #28
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    "Del" wrote:
    Looking at the lineplay and the games its really simple and has been stated many times over. They stack the box. They say we are going to shut the run down period. End of story.

    I dont care if you zone block, if you man up, if you strafe, pull, double, chip....if you have more defense then you have offense your not going to be getting much running room.

    When the box is stacked you need clear definition of who has who, you need your WR's to actually block. Right now our WR's either try to draw them away by blazing up the field, or they go put a hand on the CB's back as they plow into our RB.

    First of all the CB's dont make a run pass read on the WR, they make it on a lineman, most likely the tackle. SO trying to fool them by blazing down the field doesnt do shit. Second they need to help block.

    Most importantly we need to get better and better at the passing attack to make these defenses play true. Even at the college level you can take something away if you want, you sacrafice other things but you can take away anything you want, right now teams are taking away the run. If the risk involved is less then the payoff of containing our run game then its a no brainer and right now that is obviously the case.

    I've watched a few of the recent games again, and our O line is not coming off the ball. They look tentative, read indecision. Knowing who to block is key...and I haven't seen a single trap play run lately. I also see very little misdirection. If we're not blowing them off the line, then try some misdirection.

    IMO, in yesterday's game, Hutch looked good (and Birk to an extent), but McK, Herr and Cook...unreal, they didn't even show up.
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  9. #29
    V-Unit's Avatar
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    "VikingMike" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    Looking at the lineplay and the games its really simple and has been stated many times over. They stack the box. They say we are going to shut the run down period. End of story.

    I dont care if you zone block, if you man up, if you strafe, pull, double, chip....if you have more defense then you have offense your not going to be getting much running room.

    When the box is stacked you need clear definition of who has who, you need your WR's to actually block. Right now our WR's either try to draw them away by blazing up the field, or they go put a hand on the CB's back as they plow into our RB.

    First of all the CB's dont make a run pass read on the WR, they make it on a lineman, most likely the tackle. SO trying to fool them by blazing down the field doesnt do shit. Second they need to help block.

    Most importantly we need to get better and better at the passing attack to make these defenses play true. Even at the college level you can take something away if you want, you sacrafice other things but you can take away anything you want, right now teams are taking away the run. If the risk involved is less then the payoff of containing our run game then its a no brainer and right now that is obviously the case.

    I've watched a few of the recent games again, and our O line is not coming off the ball. They look tentative, read indecision. Knowing who to block is key...and I haven't seen a single trap play run lately. I also see very little misdirection. If we're not blowing them off the line, then try some misdirection.

    IMO, in yesterday's game, Hutch looked good (and Birk to an extent), but McK, Herr and Cook...unreal, they didn't even show up.
    We definitely are not getting linemen into the second level like we used to.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
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    Thanks Josdin!

  10. #30
    Del Rio is offline Coordinator
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    Re: Zone blocking? Square peg round hole?

    "VikingMike" wrote:
    "Del" wrote:
    Looking at the lineplay and the games its really simple and has been stated many times over. They stack the box. They say we are going to shut the run down period. End of story.

    I dont care if you zone block, if you man up, if you strafe, pull, double, chip....if you have more defense then you have offense your not going to be getting much running room.

    When the box is stacked you need clear definition of who has who, you need your WR's to actually block. Right now our WR's either try to draw them away by blazing up the field, or they go put a hand on the CB's back as they plow into our RB.

    First of all the CB's dont make a run pass read on the WR, they make it on a lineman, most likely the tackle. SO trying to fool them by blazing down the field doesnt do shit. Second they need to help block.

    Most importantly we need to get better and better at the passing attack to make these defenses play true. Even at the college level you can take something away if you want, you sacrafice other things but you can take away anything you want, right now teams are taking away the run. If the risk involved is less then the payoff of containing our run game then its a no brainer and right now that is obviously the case.

    I've watched a few of the recent games again, and our O line is not coming off the ball. They look tentative, read indecision. Knowing who to block is key...and I haven't seen a single trap play run lately. I also see very little misdirection. If we're not blowing them off the line, then try some misdirection.

    IMO, in yesterday's game, Hutch looked good (and Birk to an extent), but McK, Herr and Cook...unreal, they didn't even show up.
    Schemes can be complicated for sure someone has to understand and help in any situation. It used to be Birk, maybe they all get paid so much he doesnt feel like he needs to point fingers. Every O line I have played against or Coached has had a captain who directs scheme on the line and in the heat of battle, maybe the communication is not there.
    If you promise to be smarter, I will promise to be nicer.

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