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Thread: Winny released

  1. #101
    kevoncox's Avatar
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    Wow...
    Can I add that the quote of "he was released when he refused to restructure his contract" doesn't change anything about what happened and what was said to have happened. What was said about his released was that they (Vikings) asked his agent if he would consider lowering his contract. They (Winny and Co) said no. This happens all the time. The team then brings a number saying...take this contract or you won't make the team. The player and his side makes their decision. What people say was fucked up about this move was that no contract or no numbers were provided. It was just...would you or won't you.

    Lets get somethings clear.
    1) I don't hate Spielman for cutting Whinny. In no thread would you see me say it was a bad move. He's older (played damn good) but expensive. The things I fault Spielman for are things that you guys can't white wash. Letting our young talent hit the open market and then driving up our cap. Creating more holes than he fixes. Signing the likes of Carlson and Simpson and ruining a great season by surrounding Peterson with crap WRs and Qbs. It's been almost 7 years since we drafted the guy and we still can't figure out how to draft and hold on to a WR or QB with talent. Letting vets with retarded contracts sit on our roster and not renogotiate. Allen, still sitting here at 17 million. Williams still sitting here at 8 million.

    The good news is, I feel like he is getting the picture. As I have said, my move this offseason would have been to trade Harvin for a first(next year) and sign Jennings. He (GM) has gone on reccord and said that we may not draft a WR in the first, which I am cool with. However, if you don't draft one in the first, he needs to double up and draft 2 WRs to provide security that the WR that he selects, atleast 1 has the talent to play in this league.

    Grade so far for the offseason = C
    A for harvin trade, A for jennings signing
    D for Allen's contract, C for letting Brinkley go, D for Williams contract.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Wow...
    Can I add that the quote of "he was released when he refused to restructure his contract" doesn't change anything about what happened and what was said to have happened. What was said about his released was that they (Vikings) asked his agent if he would consider lowering his contract. They (Winny and Co) said no. This happens all the time. The team then brings a number saying...take this contract or you won't make the team. The player and his side makes their decision. What people say was fucked up about this move was that no contract or no numbers were provided. It was just...would you or won't you.

    Lets get somethings clear.
    1) I don't hate Spielman for cutting Whinny. In no thread would you see me say it was a bad move. He's older (played damn good) but expensive. The things I fault Spielman for are things that you guys can't white wash. Letting our young talent hit the open market and then driving up our cap. Creating more holes than he fixes. Signing the likes of Carlson and Simpson and ruining a great season by surrounding Peterson with crap WRs and Qbs. It's been almost 7 years since we drafted the guy and we still can't figure out how to draft and hold on to a WR or QB with talent. Letting vets with retarded contracts sit on our roster and not renogotiate. Allen, still sitting here at 17 million. Williams still sitting here at 8 million.

    The good news is, I feel like he is getting the picture. As I have said, my move this offseason would have been to trade Harvin for a first(next year) and sign Jennings. He (GM) has gone on reccord and said that we may not draft a WR in the first, which I am cool with. However, if you don't draft one in the first, he needs to double up and draft 2 WRs to provide security that the WR that he selects, atleast 1 has the talent to play in this league.

    Grade so far for the offseason = C
    A for harvin trade, A for jennings signing
    D for Allen's contract, C for letting Brinkley go, D for Williams contract.

    There are many things that can be discussed with this post, but I would like to focus on one as I haven't seen much discussion on it to date.

    JA's contract. It is true that this year, it gives us a cap hit of $17M. This is largely due to the fact that it was back end loaded, not because he is valued at $17M/yr. Here's how it was structured:

    YEAR BASE S. BONUS MISC. CAP HIT DEAD
    2008 750,000 2,583,344 - 3,333,344 -
    2009 11,950,000 2,583,344 - 14,533,344 -
    2010 6,380,000 2,583,344 4,000,000 12,963,344 -
    2011 8,979,438 2,583,344 200,000 11,762,782 -
    2012 11,619,850 2,583,344 - 14,203,194 -
    2013 14,280,612 2,583,344 200,000 17,063,956 2,583,344

    Over the life of the contract he averaged just over $12M per year (that includes the $17M owed him this year). With 2013 being the biggest hit at $17M. When this contract was signed he was inline with his value and I think we can agree that he has largely performed to expectations.

    To your point of restructuring it. In order to do that, you have to offer Jared something attractive which at his age will mean adding as many years as possible and as much guaranteed money as possible. Do you really want to enter into another long term deal with Jared at market value? Even if you can reduce the hit this year down to $12M or so, you will most likely have to add at least two more years at a similar price with a large chunk of it guaranteed making it hard to cut him down the road. Why would Jared sign up for anything less? He has leverage this year based on the amount owed him, and it will cost us to bring it down. The only other real option is to cut him.

    I can understand the decision of taking the hit this year on the final year of the contract and making a decision going into next year of resigning him to better terms when leverage is more equalized.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Wow...
    Can I add that the quote of "he was released when he refused to restructure his contract" doesn't change anything about what happened and what was said to have happened. What was said about his released was that they (Vikings) asked his agent if he would consider lowering his contract. They (Winny and Co) said no. This happens all the time. The team then brings a number saying...take this contract or you won't make the team. The player and his side makes their decision. What people say was fucked up about this move was that no contract or no numbers were provided. It was just...would you or won't you.

    Lets get somethings clear.
    1) I don't hate Spielman for cutting Whinny. In no thread would you see me say it was a bad move. He's older (played damn good) but expensive. The things I fault Spielman for are things that you guys can't white wash. Letting our young talent hit the open market and then driving up our cap. Creating more holes than he fixes. Signing the likes of Carlson and Simpson and ruining a great season by surrounding Peterson with crap WRs and Qbs. It's been almost 7 years since we drafted the guy and we still can't figure out how to draft and hold on to a WR or QB with talent. Letting vets with retarded contracts sit on our roster and not renogotiate. Allen, still sitting here at 17 million. Williams still sitting here at 8 million.

    The good news is, I feel like he is getting the picture. As I have said, my move this offseason would have been to trade Harvin for a first(next year) and sign Jennings. He (GM) has gone on reccord and said that we may not draft a WR in the first, which I am cool with. However, if you don't draft one in the first, he needs to double up and draft 2 WRs to provide security that the WR that he selects, atleast 1 has the talent to play in this league.

    Grade so far for the offseason = C
    A for harvin trade, A for jennings signing
    D for Allen's contract, C for letting Brinkley go, D for Williams contract.
    I think with everything you've stated is correct but the one thing that is missing is the players(and agents) intent, did Loadholt expect more money on the open market and was that the direction his agent was steering him.

    As for Allen at 17 mill what do the Vikings do, option restructure or cut him, the franchise tag for an end is just over 10 mill which is what we could end up paying him next year (now he gets 28 mill in 2 years) but that 17 mill is so out their it does make it harder to try and work something out long term to spread it around and I bet for the most part Jared wants his 17 mill, it might make it easier to do when the market value for Freeney and maybe Abraham comes in. I think this is part of the cap and the newer cba agreement with the rollback the high end players still want their cash and the first 2 years where teams could carry over some of that money is done now teams like the steeler, ravens and cowboys are having to let guys go that they would like to keep but they have cap issues.

    Williams contract might be easier 7 and 7 with some bonuses over 2 years but how long do we give him 3-5 years as he will be 33 in August, my guess is if something doesn't get done with him this year he might get the Winfield treatment next March.

  4. #104
    Flair Hay is offline Rookie
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    Maybe I'm alone on this one, but could it not be that Spielman WANTS to bite the bullet on Allen and Williams' contracts this year and then have them at a lower cap number for 2014 than it would be if we restructured this off-season? That's when we could realistically move up to legitimate contender status as our recent/this year's draft picks get better.

    Maybe $17M/8/8would be better for the team's SB chances than 11/11/11 for instance. I'm no CBA junkie though so maybe I'm misinterpreting the rules.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevoncox View Post
    Wow...
    The things I fault Spielman for are things that you guys can't white wash. Letting our young talent hit the open market and then driving up our cap.
    Have you ever considered for one second that it takes 2 to tango and that it is more than likely in the agent's best interest to hold out until the end in order to establish their players market value in real time rather than on what projections are for a player a year or more into the future? On one hand, I can see that if you had a good year and if you want to be insured against the potential of a career ending then maybe an early restructure with an emphasis on guaranteed money Vs. backloaded dollars may make sense. But my guess is that more often than not the agent is going to be telling the player they are bulletproof and that they will get a bigger contract if they wait until the FA period hits and they can play the taking their talents to south beach angle. Not much a GM can do in that situation but wait and see.

    You also have to know that 2 years ago we were in a hell of a cap situation and had no free dollars to work with. We lost players that year and last year I believe we were also thin on room to redo any deals with. Correct me if I am wrong.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    There are many things that can be discussed with this post, but I would like to focus on one as I haven't seen much discussion on it to date.

    JA's contract. It is true that this year, it gives us a cap hit of $17M. This is largely due to the fact that it was back end loaded, not because he is valued at $17M/yr. Here's how it was structured:

    YEAR BASE S. BONUS MISC. CAP HIT DEAD
    2008 750,000 2,583,344 - 3,333,344 -
    2009 11,950,000 2,583,344 - 14,533,344 -
    2010 6,380,000 2,583,344 4,000,000 12,963,344 -
    2011 8,979,438 2,583,344 200,000 11,762,782 -
    2012 11,619,850 2,583,344 - 14,203,194 -
    2013 14,280,612 2,583,344 200,000 17,063,956 2,583,344

    Over the life of the contract he averaged just over $12M per year (that includes the $17M owed him this year). With 2013 being the biggest hit at $17M. When this contract was signed he was inline with his value and I think we can agree that he has largely performed to expectations.

    To your point of restructuring it. In order to do that, you have to offer Jared something attractive which at his age will mean adding as many years as possible and as much guaranteed money as possible. Do you really want to enter into another long term deal with Jared at market value? Even if you can reduce the hit this year down to $12M or so, you will most likely have to add at least two more years at a similar price with a large chunk of it guaranteed making it hard to cut him down the road. Why would Jared sign up for anything less? He has leverage this year based on the amount owed him, and it will cost us to bring it down. The only other real option is to cut him.

    I can understand the decision of taking the hit this year on the final year of the contract and making a decision going into next year of resigning him to better terms when leverage is more equalized.
    I would extend for 2-3 more years and give him a higher guareentee amount.
    To answer your question. He 30. Will he no longer be an effective pass rusher at 34?
    You don't really think he will suffer a huge drop in talent in 4 years do you barring injury?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
    Maybe I'm alone on this one, but could it not be that Spielman WANTS to bite the bullet on Allen and Williams' contracts this year and then have them at a lower cap number for 2014 than it would be if we restructured this off-season? That's when we could realistically move up to legitimate contender status as our recent/this year's draft picks get better. Maybe $17M/8/8would be better for the team's SB chances than 11/11/11 for instance. I'm no CBA junkie though so maybe I'm misinterpreting the rules.
    Why would he go from making 11 to making 8? Elite players are still getting paid well. Its the middle guys getting screwed. Feast or Famine.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Have you ever considered for one second that it takes 2 to tango and that it is more than likely in the agent's best interest to hold out until the end in order to establish their players market value in real time rather than on what projections are for a player a year or more into the future? On one hand, I can see that if you had a good year and if you want to be insured against the potential of a career ending then maybe an early restructure with an emphasis on guaranteed money Vs. backloaded dollars may make sense. But my guess is that more often than not the agent is going to be telling the player they are bulletproof and that they will get a bigger contract if they wait until the FA period hits and they can play the taking their talents to south beach angle. Not much a GM can do in that situation but wait and see.

    You also have to know that 2 years ago we were in a hell of a cap situation and had no free dollars to work with. We lost players that year and last year I believe we were also thin on room to redo any deals with. Correct me if I am wrong.
    A couple of things.
    1. I mentioned that we didn't resign any of our starters. You can't tell me all the agents were rolling that dice.

    2. I can't remember. We rolled over money last season to this year's cap...So I would say no. We weren't cap strap. I think we resigned Peterson which created ample cap room.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    Very grown up of you! Not much fun though.

    Let's how this new PF reacts when we draft Chance Warmack in the first round.
    Or when they want to put a retractable roof on the dome.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    All of those quotes are not attributed to you - I purposely left the names off because I wanted it to be a tongue-in-cheek post. However, every single one of those quotes were pulled from earlier pages in this thread.

    My point is that a lot of people were quick to overreact and condemn Spielman - mostly because they want to be pissed off at Spielman, even though it is getting harder and harder as the offseason goes on. We see the same thing happening in other threads, often with the same people.

    Of the flip side, in the past there have been people who overreact in the other direction, declaring the Vikings super bowl contenders at every turn of the offseason. I make sarcastic statements about them when it happens to...
    Don't forget those that overreact & get all bent out of shape at the fans that don't like some of the moves Spielman makes, especially in FA. To them Spielman hardly ever does wrong & any one who thinks Spielman made a bad move is just being negative.

    We see the same thing happening in other threads, often with the same people.

    Personally I like some of the moves he's made & have seen plenty of others I didn't like. He's had 4 in the last 2 years that I liked. Signing Felton, resigning Felton, Signing Jennings & cutting Jenkins.

    So that's really only 2 new people he brought in 2 years that I'm happy with. That's not a lot considering who we lost. That does not make for a great GM.

    Like Caine I'm not happy with the Loadholt resigning & think we could have done better. Now was the time to make the change, not 2 to 3 more years down the road. Not when we are trying to maintain an OL that can protect Ponder & give him ample time to throw.

    I'm also not happy with the resign of Simpson. Contrary to what you believe, I do think there are better WR's available out there that we could have signed.

    The Cassel signing I'm OK with. He could have done worse & I think it doesn't hurt him if Cassel does prove to be no better than the back up he was signed up to be. If he does play better than Ponder, like he did in NE, Spielman will look better for the pick up. There's definitely going to be a QB controversy, it's just a matter of when.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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