Thread: Winfield and the New Math

"Mike" wrote:

Interesting points on Griff & Win. To clarify, I never thought Griffin wasn't good, I just think Win is the better of the two, all things considered.

"tastywaves" wrote:

I think this was the biggest dropoff we had when Paymah came in for AW.
His run support was no where near Aw's or Ced's, leading to a lot of YAC and big plays.

From what I see of Paymah, his two issues are 1) not knowing where to be at all times and 2) poor tackling. I actually have far higher hopes for Asher Allen than I do for Paymah. Allen seems to have better instincts, he closes on the ball quicker and I've not once seen him fail to look for the ball when it was obvious the receiver was doing just that. Granted, I'm not an authority on the subject, just a guy with a passion for the position.

What do you think of Allen so far?

I have high hopes for Allen, hard to judge him with the limited time, but he does appear to have a nose for making plays.
Neither Sapp or Paymah excites me too much, although Sapp has improved greatly from last year and he's done a decent job as the nickel.
Since this is the spot that Allen will most likely be competing for next year, this is where I would like to see more of Allen.

I doubt Paymah was ever considered more than an emergency filler for outside corner if AW or Ced were to get hurt.
If AW's injury was considered more serious, I would have expected the FO to rush out and find a guy to fill his spot.

"tastywaves" wrote:

"Mike" wrote:

You might be right, I'm just going from what I remember seeing last season. He's certainly not Nnamdi Asomugha or Champ Bailey when it comes to scarring off QBs, but from what I recall, Griff gets picked on a lot more. However, coming off an injury might change that.

I think that is the perception a lot of people had/have in concern with Griffin.
Last year when all the announcers and this forum was constantly making this claim, a few of us rewatched the games and went through the logs and looked to see if this was really the case.
It wasn't, it was actually fairly equal the passes/completions thrown and to either side.

What AW did a really good job of last year was make a couple big impact, game changing plays.
AW is also a complete stud in run support, which is usually where his highlights come from.
This is not to slight AW in any way, he is exactly what this defense calls for...however,
I agree with Marrdro, that AW's cover abilities are pretty much on par with Griffin's.
You'll also notice that quite often Griffin is lined up against the other team's #1.


I know you know this, but with our defense, it's imperative that the corners are aggressive run support guys with adequate coverage skills.
This is why you'll see our cb's consistently on the top of the charts in tackles and no so much on the INT list.

I think this was the biggest dropoff we had when Paymah came in for AW.
His run support was no where near Aw's or Ced's, leading to a lot of YAC and big plays.

Most excellent post tasty.
It highlites the importance of the cornerbacks in this system. There performance is crucial in run and pass defense.
My thought is that Griffin, and Winfield to some degree, were allowed to play more press coverage after Allen was brought in.
The defensive front was applying more pressure and Frazier made the adjustment somewhere around midseason last year.
Our system doesn't require 'shutdown' corners. But some very good receivers have been held to very little at times.

With Winfield back, I would expect the runs through the C gap and outside to be defended better. The linebacker with C gap responsibility needs to stop gettingout of position as well.

This defense has room for improvement.
I think it will.

This team is scary good now.

Just imagine how good they will be when they improve!

This is turning into a damn fine thread.

"Marrdro" wrote:

This is turning into a damn fine thread.

Well then, let me grace it with a visit from me then... ;D

"jargomcfargo" wrote:

"tastywaves" wrote:

"Mike" wrote:

You might be right, I'm just going from what I remember seeing last season. He's certainly not Nnamdi Asomugha or Champ Bailey when it comes to scarring off QBs, but from what I recall, Griff gets picked on a lot more. However, coming off an injury might change that.

I think that is the perception a lot of people had/have in concern with Griffin.
Last year when all the announcers and this forum was constantly making this claim, a few of us rewatched the games and went through the logs and looked to see if this was really the case.
It wasn't, it was actually fairly equal the passes/completions thrown and to either side.

What AW did a really good job of last year was make a couple big impact, game changing plays.
AW is also a complete stud in run support, which is usually where his highlights come from.
This is not to slight AW in any way, he is exactly what this defense calls for...however,
I agree with Marrdro, that AW's cover abilities are pretty much on par with Griffin's.
You'll also notice that quite often Griffin is lined up against the other team's #1.


I know you know this, but with our defense, it's imperative that the corners are aggressive run support guys with adequate coverage skills.
This is why you'll see our cb's consistently on the top of the charts in tackles and no so much on the INT list.

I think this was the biggest dropoff we had when Paymah came in for AW.
His run support was no where near Aw's or Ced's, leading to a lot of YAC and big plays.

Most excellent post tasty.
It highlites the importance of the cornerbacks in this system. There performance is crucial in run and pass defense.
My thought is that Griffin, and Winfield to some degree, were allowed to play more press coverage after Allen was brought in.
The defensive front was applying more pressure and Frazier made the adjustment somewhere around midseason last year.
Our system doesn't require 'shutdown' corners. But some very good receivers have been held to very little at times.

With Winfield back, I would expect the runs through the C gap and outside to be defended better. The linebacker with C gap responsibility needs to stop gettingout of position as well.

This defense has room for improvement.
I think it will.

This team is scary good now.

Just imagine how good they will be when they improve!

Agreed, the return of Winfield has a lot more impact to how our defense plays then simply how well he covers a receiver.


I think the biggest area of improvement left in the defense is in the middle of the field pass coverage and continued focus on making tackles.
If EJ doesn't pick up his range, the safeties are going to have to continue to cheat his way leaving the outside more exposed.
Wonder if we will see Greenway or Leber trying to fill this role more in obvious passing situations.

"tastywaves" wrote:

"jargomcfargo" wrote:

"tastywaves" wrote:

"Mike" wrote:

You might be right, I'm just going from what I remember seeing last season. He's certainly not Nnamdi Asomugha or Champ Bailey when it comes to scarring off QBs, but from what I recall, Griff gets picked on a lot more. However, coming off an injury might change that.

I think that is the perception a lot of people had/have in concern with Griffin.
Last year when all the announcers and this forum was constantly making this claim, a few of us rewatched the games and went through the logs and looked to see if this was really the case.
It wasn't, it was actually fairly equal the passes/completions thrown and to either side.

What AW did a really good job of last year was make a couple big impact, game changing plays.
AW is also a complete stud in run support, which is usually where his highlights come from.
This is not to slight AW in any way, he is exactly what this defense calls for...however,
I agree with Marrdro, that AW's cover abilities are pretty much on par with Griffin's.
You'll also notice that quite often Griffin is lined up against the other team's #1.


I know you know this, but with our defense, it's imperative that the corners are aggressive run support guys with adequate coverage skills.
This is why you'll see our cb's consistently on the top of the charts in tackles and no so much on the INT list.

I think this was the biggest dropoff we had when Paymah came in for AW.
His run support was no where near Aw's or Ced's, leading to a lot of YAC and big plays.

Most excellent post tasty.
It highlites the importance of the cornerbacks in this system. There performance is crucial in run and pass defense.
My thought is that Griffin, and Winfield to some degree, were allowed to play more press coverage after Allen was brought in.
The defensive front was applying more pressure and Frazier made the adjustment somewhere around midseason last year.
Our system doesn't require 'shutdown' corners. But some very good receivers have been held to very little at times.

With Winfield back, I would expect the runs through the C gap and outside to be defended better. The linebacker with C gap responsibility needs to stop gettingout of position as well.

This defense has room for improvement.
I think it will.

This team is scary good now.

Just imagine how good they will be when they improve!

Agreed, the return of Winfield has a lot more impact to how our defense plays then simply how well he covers a receiver.


I think the biggest area of improvement left in the defense is in the middle of the field pass coverage and continued focus on making tackles.
[size=10pt]If EJ doesn't pick up his range, the safeties are going to have to continue to cheat his way leaving the outside more exposed.[/size]
Wonder if we will see Greenway or Leber trying to fill this role more in obvious passing situations.

Thats a fine point.

We did see a bit of Greenway in the middle (Two LB's) with Ben on the field and EJ off in the Lions game. I wonder if that equated to improved S play.
Or atleast the perception that the S's played better.

Sure wish we could see the back half on the tube.
:

"tastywaves" wrote:

"jargomcfargo" wrote:

"tastywaves" wrote:

"Mike" wrote:

You might be right, I'm just going from what I remember seeing last season. He's certainly not Nnamdi Asomugha or Champ Bailey when it comes to scarring off QBs, but from what I recall, Griff gets picked on a lot more. However, coming off an injury might change that.

I think that is the perception a lot of people had/have in concern with Griffin.
Last year when all the announcers and this forum was constantly making this claim, a few of us rewatched the games and went through the logs and looked to see if this was really the case.
It wasn't, it was actually fairly equal the passes/completions thrown and to either side.

What AW did a really good job of last year was make a couple big impact, game changing plays.
AW is also a complete stud in run support, which is usually where his highlights come from.
This is not to slight AW in any way, he is exactly what this defense calls for...however,
I agree with Marrdro, that AW's cover abilities are pretty much on par with Griffin's.
You'll also notice that quite often Griffin is lined up against the other team's #1.


I know you know this, but with our defense, it's imperative that the corners are aggressive run support guys with adequate coverage skills.
This is why you'll see our cb's consistently on the top of the charts in tackles and no so much on the INT list.

I think this was the biggest dropoff we had when Paymah came in for AW.
His run support was no where near Aw's or Ced's, leading to a lot of YAC and big plays.

Most excellent post tasty.
It highlites the importance of the cornerbacks in this system. There performance is crucial in run and pass defense.
My thought is that Griffin, and Winfield to some degree, were allowed to play more press coverage after Allen was brought in.
The defensive front was applying more pressure and Frazier made the adjustment somewhere around midseason last year.
Our system doesn't require 'shutdown' corners. But some very good receivers have been held to very little at times.

With Winfield back, I would expect the runs through the C gap and outside to be defended better. The linebacker with C gap responsibility needs to stop gettingout of position as well.

This defense has room for improvement.
I think it will.

This team is scary good now.

Just imagine how good they will be when they improve!

Agreed, the return of Winfield has a lot more impact to how our defense plays then simply how well he covers a receiver.


I think the biggest area of improvement left in the defense is in the middle of the field pass coverage and continued focus on making tackles.
If EJ doesn't pick up his range, the safeties are going to have to continue to cheat his way leaving the outside more exposed.
Wonder if we will see Greenway or Leber trying to fill this role more in obvious passing situations.

That center of the field area in this scheme requires a MLB with great range. It is the biggest weakness in the scheme.
It is also easier for the QB because the pass is shorter.

I remember when Earlicker got a little slower and couldn't cover the deep center of the field as well. It really hurt their defense.

I have been wondering if EJ hasn't been a little slower after his injury. I know he has guessed wrong and been out of position a little more.

The safeties have a lot of field to cover, it's going to be hard for them to compensate.

Main thing, like you say, they have to make their tackles and stop the YAC.

"Marrdro" wrote:

"tastywaves" wrote:

"jargomcfargo" wrote:

"tastywaves" wrote:

"Mike" wrote:

You might be right, I'm just going from what I remember seeing last season. He's certainly not Nnamdi Asomugha or Champ Bailey when it comes to scarring off QBs, but from what I recall, Griff gets picked on a lot more. However, coming off an injury might change that.

I think that is the perception a lot of people had/have in concern with Griffin.
Last year when all the announcers and this forum was constantly making this claim, a few of us rewatched the games and went through the logs and looked to see if this was really the case.
It wasn't, it was actually fairly equal the passes/completions thrown and to either side.

What AW did a really good job of last year was make a couple big impact, game changing plays.
AW is also a complete stud in run support, which is usually where his highlights come from.
This is not to slight AW in any way, he is exactly what this defense calls for...however,
I agree with Marrdro, that AW's cover abilities are pretty much on par with Griffin's.
You'll also notice that quite often Griffin is lined up against the other team's #1.


I know you know this, but with our defense, it's imperative that the corners are aggressive run support guys with adequate coverage skills.
This is why you'll see our cb's consistently on the top of the charts in tackles and no so much on the INT list.

I think this was the biggest dropoff we had when Paymah came in for AW.
His run support was no where near Aw's or Ced's, leading to a lot of YAC and big plays.

Most excellent post tasty.
It highlites the importance of the cornerbacks in this system. There performance is crucial in run and pass defense.
My thought is that Griffin, and Winfield to some degree, were allowed to play more press coverage after Allen was brought in.
The defensive front was applying more pressure and Frazier made the adjustment somewhere around midseason last year.
Our system doesn't require 'shutdown' corners. But some very good receivers have been held to very little at times.

With Winfield back, I would expect the runs through the C gap and outside to be defended better. The linebacker with C gap responsibility needs to stop gettingout of position as well.

This defense has room for improvement.
I think it will.

This team is scary good now.

Just imagine how good they will be when they improve!

Agreed, the return of Winfield has a lot more impact to how our defense plays then simply how well he covers a receiver.


I think the biggest area of improvement left in the defense is in the middle of the field pass coverage and continued focus on making tackles.
[size=10pt]If EJ doesn't pick up his range, the safeties are going to have to continue to cheat his way leaving the outside more exposed.[/size]
Wonder if we will see Greenway or Leber trying to fill this role more in obvious passing situations.

Thats a fine point.

We did see a bit of Greenway in the middle (Two LB's) with Ben on the field and EJ off in the Lions game. I wonder if that equated to improved S play.
Or atleast the perception that the S's played better.

Sure wish we could see the back half on the tube.

:

I believe like in the first half of the Green Bay game, and most all of the Lions game, our back half played rather good, with solid tight coverage of recievers....ALA,
mostly short passes, and in Rogers case, lots of sacks/knockdowns/and bad throws, and lots of short passes.
That tells me the back side was doing a good job.

"NordicNed" wrote:

"Marrdro" wrote:

"tastywaves" wrote:

"jargomcfargo" wrote:

"tastywaves" wrote:

[quote author=Mike Bullock link=topic=54308.msg1019376#msg1019376 date=1258728963]
You might be right, I'm just going from what I remember seeing last season. He's certainly not Nnamdi Asomugha or Champ Bailey when it comes to scarring off QBs, but from what I recall, Griff gets picked on a lot more. However, coming off an injury might change that.

I think that is the perception a lot of people had/have in concern with Griffin.
Last year when all the announcers and this forum was constantly making this claim, a few of us rewatched the games and went through the logs and looked to see if this was really the case.
It wasn't, it was actually fairly equal the passes/completions thrown and to either side.

What AW did a really good job of last year was make a couple big impact, game changing plays.
AW is also a complete stud in run support, which is usually where his highlights come from.
This is not to slight AW in any way, he is exactly what this defense calls for...however,
I agree with Marrdro, that AW's cover abilities are pretty much on par with Griffin's.
You'll also notice that quite often Griffin is lined up against the other team's #1.


I know you know this, but with our defense, it's imperative that the corners are aggressive run support guys with adequate coverage skills.
This is why you'll see our cb's consistently on the top of the charts in tackles and no so much on the INT list.

I think this was the biggest dropoff we had when Paymah came in for AW.
His run support was no where near Aw's or Ced's, leading to a lot of YAC and big plays.

Most excellent post tasty.
It highlites the importance of the cornerbacks in this system. There performance is crucial in run and pass defense.
My thought is that Griffin, and Winfield to some degree, were allowed to play more press coverage after Allen was brought in.
The defensive front was applying more pressure and Frazier made the adjustment somewhere around midseason last year.
Our system doesn't require 'shutdown' corners. But some very good receivers have been held to very little at times.

With Winfield back, I would expect the runs through the C gap and outside to be defended better. The linebacker with C gap responsibility needs to stop gettingout of position as well.

This defense has room for improvement.
I think it will.

This team is scary good now.

Just imagine how good they will be when they improve!

Agreed, the return of Winfield has a lot more impact to how our defense plays then simply how well he covers a receiver.


I think the biggest area of improvement left in the defense is in the middle of the field pass coverage and continued focus on making tackles.
[size=10pt]If EJ doesn't pick up his range, the safeties are going to have to continue to cheat his way leaving the outside more exposed.[/size]
Wonder if we will see Greenway or Leber trying to fill this role more in obvious passing situations.

Thats a fine point.

We did see a bit of Greenway in the middle (Two LB's) with Ben on the field and EJ off in the Lions game. I wonder if that equated to improved S play.
Or atleast the perception that the S's played better.

Sure wish we could see the back half on the tube.

:

I believe like in the first half of the Green Bay game, and most all of the Lions game, our back half played rather good, with solid tight coverage of recievers....ALA,
mostly short passes, and in Rogers case, lots of sacks/knockdowns/and bad throws, and lots of short passes.

That tells me the back side was doing a good job.
[/quote]
Agree that they played good.
Question is why?


I don't think were the ball was thrown had anything to do with it as we see alot of teams try to expose our middle with short and long passes.

Was it because the S's all of a sudden became more talented?
Only difference I really saw was EJ leaving the field a bit more.
Didn't put two and two together until Tasty's point.

Here's a "what if?" wrinkle to toss in:

How do you think it would be working now if they'd brought in an SS last year instead of Madieu Williams and pushed Sharper back to his native FS spot instead of letting him go? For the sake of tangibles, we can say the '08 acquired SS is at the same level of play as Williams.

Personally, I think it'd be downright scary and never understood why Sharper was an SS to begin with...