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  1. #11
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "Benet" wrote:
    I struggle to find sympathy for billionaires who plead poverty when it comes to stadium construction for their teams. Zygi could get it done tomorrow if he wanted to - but God-forbid a stadium gets built without public money these days.

    Sorry, cynical mood.

    (And yes, I understand the transport links are the concern of the state - but that isn't what's holding up construction).
    Yeah, Wilf could probably get it done.
    But he'd lose a lot of money.
    So he won't.
    He need's public money if the team is going to be profitable.

    And it's all about leverage.
    Let's face it, Minnesota needs the Vikings more than the Vikings need Minnesota.

    If the legislature thinks that because the Vikes have a few seasons at or below .500 that the fans won't care and they can ignore this...
    well, they're in for a rude awakening come the first election day after the team moves.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  2. #12
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    In my mind, it isn't a question of whether or not he could build the stadium himself.
    It is more of a question of whether or not he should.

    Minneapolis (or whatever city the stadium is in) and the state of Minnesota stand to benefit a lot from a new stadium.
    Therefore they should penny up some of the money.

    Now I do believe that Wilf should be throwing a considerable amount into the ring.
    I think his initial proposal of 250 million is just a start, and in the end I expect him to be donating between 350 and 500 million.
    But the state, city, and county need to pay their fair share too.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  3. #13
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "Benet" wrote:
    I struggle to find sympathy for billionaires who plead poverty when it comes to stadium construction for their teams. Zygi could get it done tomorrow if he wanted to - but God-forbid a stadium gets built without public money these days.

    Sorry, cynical mood.

    (And yes, I understand the transport links are the concern of the state - but that isn't what's holding up construction).
    Sure he might be able to pull it off sans the road construction. But why shouldn't the state chip in. They will be reaping the rewards of tax revenue from the stadium & the surrounding businesses, not to mention all the fans coming in & spending money at stores, hotels & restaurants.

    If he did build it himself, the state will be the first ones there with their greedy little hands out wanting a piece of the pie of a stadium & all it's benefits that they didn't help finance.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  4. #14
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "singersp" wrote:
    "Benet" wrote:
    I struggle to find sympathy for billionaires who plead poverty when it comes to stadium construction for their teams. Zygi could get it done tomorrow if he wanted to - but God-forbid a stadium gets built without public money these days.

    Sorry, cynical mood.

    (And yes, I understand the transport links are the concern of the state - but that isn't what's holding up construction).
    Sure he might be able to pull it off sans the road construction. But why shouldn't the state chip in. They will be reaping the rewards of tax revenue from the stadium & the surrounding businesses, not to mention all the fans coming in & spending money at stores, hotels & restaurants.

    If he did build it himself, the state will be the first ones there with their greedy little hands out wanting a piece of the pie of a stadium & all it's benefits that they didn't help finance.
    So name any other non sports business in the state that gets treated any different.

    In the end, a business can either sustain itself or it can't. If the business can only be solvent through government aid, then it is not a good model and should be either changed or abandoned.

  5. #15
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Benet" wrote:
    I struggle to find sympathy for billionaires who plead poverty when it comes to stadium construction for their teams. Zygi could get it done tomorrow if he wanted to - but God-forbid a stadium gets built without public money these days.

    Sorry, cynical mood.

    (And yes, I understand the transport links are the concern of the state - but that isn't what's holding up construction).
    Sure he might be able to pull it off sans the road construction. But why shouldn't the state chip in. They will be reaping the rewards of tax revenue from the stadium & the surrounding businesses, not to mention all the fans coming in & spending money at stores, hotels & restaurants.

    If he did build it himself, the state will be the first ones there with their greedy little hands out wanting a piece of the pie of a stadium & all it's benefits that they didn't help finance.
    So name any other non sports business in the state that gets treated any different.

    In the end, a business can either sustain itself or it can't. If the business can only be solvent through government aid, then it is not a good model and should be either changed or abandoned.
    Northwest Airlines?
    Best Buy?
    Tax breaks and government subsidies are a reality for states and municipalities that want to attract businesses.
    In return, the businesses create jobs and additional tax revenue.
    In those cases, the politicians realize that the choice isn't between having the company and jobs here at a lower tax rate or the normal one, but between having the company and jobs here at a lower tax rate or not at all.

    People need to realize that it's the same situation with the Vikes.
    It's not a question of whether it's better to have the Vikes here in the Metrodome forever with no public financing versus having them in a new stadium with public financing, but whether it's better to have the Vikes here with public financing or let them go to L.A.
    It's okay to come down on either side of that issue.
    But thinking that the Vikes will stay here without public funding is probably unrealisitic.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  6. #16
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "Overlord" wrote:
    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Benet" wrote:
    I struggle to find sympathy for billionaires who plead poverty when it comes to stadium construction for their teams. Zygi could get it done tomorrow if he wanted to - but God-forbid a stadium gets built without public money these days.

    Sorry, cynical mood.

    (And yes, I understand the transport links are the concern of the state - but that isn't what's holding up construction).
    Sure he might be able to pull it off sans the road construction. But why shouldn't the state chip in. They will be reaping the rewards of tax revenue from the stadium & the surrounding businesses, not to mention all the fans coming in & spending money at stores, hotels & restaurants.

    If he did build it himself, the state will be the first ones there with their greedy little hands out wanting a piece of the pie of a stadium & all it's benefits that they didn't help finance.
    So name any other non sports business in the state that gets treated any different.

    In the end, a business can either sustain itself or it can't. If the business can only be solvent through government aid, then it is not a good model and should be either changed or abandoned.
    Northwest Airlines?
    Best Buy?
    Tax breaks and government subsidies are a reality for states and municipalities that want to attract businesses.
    In return, the businesses create jobs and additional tax revenue.
    In those cases, the politicians realize that the choice isn't between having the company and jobs here at a lower tax rate or the normal one, but between having the company and jobs here at a lower tax rate or not at all.

    People need to realize that it's the same situation with the Vikes.
    It's not a question of whether it's better to have the Vikes here in the Metrodome forever with no public financing versus having them in a new stadium with public financing, but whether it's better to have the Vikes here with public financing or let them go to L.A.
    It's okay to come down on either side of that issue.
    But thinking that the Vikes will stay here without public funding is probably unrealisitic.


    If we want to give him tax breaks that is one thing, but did the state pay for construction of the best buy headquarters? Yes, the airlines get huge subsidies and I don't like that either.

    I wouldn't have a problem with giving them a favorable tax rate, but I do have a problem with using state money to pay for the infrastructure of a private business.Even if it is for a team I love to watch.

    The whole reason that teams get into these problems is that historically the states bale them out when they make bad business decisions. In the real world, if you want a bigger and better building for your business you need to make sure you produce a product that customers are willing to pay enough for to allow you to do it. In the NFL you can have a terrible team and a dysfunctional front office and still get a new facility by extorting the city with the threat of relocation, which to me sucks as a business model.

  7. #17
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "singersp" wrote:
    Sure he might be able to pull it off sans the road construction. But why shouldn't the state chip in. They will be reaping the rewards of tax revenue from the stadium & the surrounding businesses, not to mention all the fans coming in & spending money at stores, hotels & restaurants.

    If he did build it himself, the state will be the first ones there with their greedy little hands out wanting a piece of the pie of a stadium & all it's benefits that they didn't help finance.
    Doesn't this happen anyway? 60,000 plus fans go to the Metrodome each Sunday during the season, and from all the estimates I've heard any new stadium wouldn't significantly increase the number of seating; luxury or not. Sure there would be an increase in tax revenue - those luxury seats bring in more affluent fans - but Zygi would retain the VAST majority of that additional income. So to say the state will be waiting for Zygi to fund the construction of a new stadium then immediately stick their "greedy little hands out" is a tad simplistic. Also, if he got his Northern Lights complex with the additional retail areas, wouldn't he make a fortune on either selling the land or renting it to stores? Are you saying that the State SHOULDN'T receive tax from such agreements?

    What I neglected to mention, and perhaps I should have to begin with, is that the concept of public funding for football stadia is a totally foreign one to us Brits. If the slightest hint of public money was EVER mentioned in connection with constructing a football stadium for a club there would be national uproar. I'd love to see George Gillett and Tom Hicks (who recently bought Liverpool FC) try to get public funding for their proposed ground at Stanley Park - they'd be run out of the country. But then our system of professional sports is so completely different to yours there's no point of comparison.

    And I do accept the reality that there is going to HAVE to be some form of public funding for a new Vikings stadium, that doesn't mean I have to agree with the concept of public funding for a professional sports team. The NFL is a ridiculously profitable venture, these teams more than pay for themselves and in any other walk of life they wouldn't have any credible ground to ask for public funding. Sadly the nature of a franchise in the NFL is that it can be moved at the drop of a hat - especially when a market such as LA is ripe for the plucking.. (I said PLUCKING).

    It's the solitary thing I don't like about the NFL. If you could eliminate the bitching about new stadiums (I'm not saying that only happens in the NFL, my local team are in the midst of a 50-YEAR argument about a new stadium, but it's not public financing that is causing the issue) and relocation of franchises, and remove Gene Upshaw as head of the NFLPA, and enact a substance abuse policy with some teeth, and force teams to be truly accountable for their players, and force the players to buck their ideas up...

    Sorry, going off track. I love the NFL - but under ZERO circumstances can Zygi try to come off as a victim here, which is what he and every owner in the NFL (except Jerry Jones, who seems to just get stuff done without too much bitching) do when it comes to stadium disputes.

  8. #18
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "Benet" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    Sure he might be able to pull it off sans the road construction. But why shouldn't the state chip in. They will be reaping the rewards of tax revenue from the stadium & the surrounding businesses, not to mention all the fans coming in & spending money at stores, hotels & restaurants.

    If he did build it himself, the state will be the first ones there with their greedy little hands out wanting a piece of the pie of a stadium & all it's benefits that they didn't help finance.
    Doesn't this happen anyway? 60,000 plus fans go to the Metrodome each Sunday during the season, and from all the estimates I've heard any new stadium wouldn't significantly increase the number of seating; luxury or not. Sure there would be an increase in tax revenue - those luxury seats bring in more affluent fans - but Zygi would retain the VAST majority of that additional income. So to say the state will be waiting for Zygi to fund the construction of a new stadium then immediately stick their "greedy little hands out" is a tad simplistic. Also, if he got his Northern Lights complex with the additional retail areas, wouldn't he make a fortune on either selling the land or renting it to stores? Are you saying that the State SHOULDN'T receive tax from such agreements?

    What I neglected to mention, and perhaps I should have to begin with, is that the concept of public funding for football stadia is a totally foreign one to us Brits. If the slightest hint of public money was EVER mentioned in connection with constructing a football stadium for a club there would be national uproar. I'd love to see George Gillett and Tom Hicks (who recently bought Liverpool FC) try to get public funding for their proposed ground at Stanley Park - they'd be run out of the country. But then our system of professional sports is so completely different to yours there's no point of comparison.

    And I do accept the reality that there is going to HAVE to be some form of public funding for a new Vikings stadium, that doesn't mean I have to agree with the concept of public funding for a professional sports team. The NFL is a ridiculously profitable venture, these teams more than pay for themselves and in any other walk of life they wouldn't have any credible ground to ask for public funding. Sadly the nature of a franchise in the NFL is that it can be moved at the drop of a hat - especially when a market such as LA is ripe for the plucking.. (I said PLUCKING).

    It's the solitary thing I don't like about the NFL. If you could eliminate the bitching about new stadiums (I'm not saying that only happens in the NFL, my local team are in the midst of a 50-YEAR argument about a new stadium, but it's not public financing that is causing the issue) and relocation of franchises, and remove Gene Upshaw as head of the NFLPA, and enact a substance abuse policy with some teeth, and force teams to be truly accountable for their players, and force the players to buck their ideas up...

    Sorry, going off track. I love the NFL - but under ZERO circumstances can Zygi try to come off as a victim here, which is what he and every owner in the NFL (except Jerry Jones, who seems to just get stuff done without too much bitching) do when it comes to stadium disputes.
    Hey Benet

    Do you find it ironic that the country who fought for independence from yours due to excessive taxation is now made up of citizens who are begging the government to tax it's citizens in order to allow a few athletes to make millions of dollars to play a game?

  9. #19
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    If we want to give him tax breaks that is one thing, but did the state pay for construction of the best buy headquarters?
    Yes, the airlines get huge subsidies and I don't like that either.
    Whether the government subsidies come in the form of tax breaks or buildings, it's still money out of the taxpayer's pocket.
    It's just a matter of how you do the accounting.

    "UffDaVikes]<br" wrote:

    That's pretty reasonable.
    I happen to disagree though.


    [quote author=UffDaVikes]
    The whole reason that teams get into these problems is that historically the states bale them out when they make bad business decisions. In the real world, if you want a bigger and better building for your business you need to make sure you produce a product that customers are willing to pay enough for to allow you to do it. In the NFL you can have a terrible team and a dysfunctional front office and still get a new facility by extorting the city with the threat of relocation, which to me sucks as a business model.
    I don't think the Vikings have made bad business decisions since McCombs took over.
    Red made them profitable, and I think they still are.
    They don't need a new stadium to be profitable.
    They need a new stadium to be as profitable as other teams, and more importantly, as profitable as they would be if they moved to L.A.
    Yeah, it sucks for the fans/taxpayers, but the NFL knows how much people like them and they're not afraid to use that.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  10. #20
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    Re: Wilf frustrated over lack of stadium progress

    "Benet" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    Sure he might be able to pull it off sans the road construction. But why shouldn't the state chip in. They will be reaping the rewards of tax revenue from the stadium & the surrounding businesses, not to mention all the fans coming in & spending money at stores, hotels & restaurants.

    If he did build it himself, the state will be the first ones there with their greedy little hands out wanting a piece of the pie of a stadium & all it's benefits that they didn't help finance.
    Doesn't this happen anyway? 60,000 plus fans go to the Metrodome each Sunday during the season, and from all the estimates I've heard any new stadium wouldn't significantly increase the number of seating; luxury or not.
    Yes, it does happen currently, and the revenue generated has paid for the metrodome many, many times over.
    Now that it is time to build a new stadium, the local community should help pay for it since they will continue to benefit from it.

    The bottom line is that there are many cities who would jump at the chance to publicly finance a stadium in order to get an NFL team.
    Wilf has publicly said that he does not want to move the Vikings.
    So as a result the state is punishing him by saying he has to pay for it himself?
    That doesn't make sense.

    Plus, the state does pump a helluva lot of money into other, less profitable, ventures.
    How much did the state pay for the Gutherie?
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

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