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  1. #11
    Minniman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY View Post
    Again! it's an evaluation on how the team performs IN THE DRAFT. That means college players who are picked to play in the NFL. Players already in the NFL has nothing to do with it. Besides, it's impossible to compare the value of Harvin to players in the draft and that's not the point of this thread. Forget about Harvin! He had to be gone anyways.
    Your premise is that the Vikings loaded up with value in the draft. I agree. My point is that it does not mean much if taken out of context to the value lost by loading up. I know that economics is called the dismal science because opportunity costs are always a factor, and there were some pretty large opportunity costs here.

    If your premise holds true, then does that mean Seattle had a poor draft day because they did not have any first round value? Knowing what we know now, if Harvin was on the board, he likely would have gone top ten. They gave up a late pick for a top ten pick. Not bad, but it is a fail under your premise.

    If your premise is that the Vikings did the best they could with the picks in hand, it is still debatable, but your logic used to examine this would then be sound. I believe that premise distorts the overall picture by not taking important factors into account, but it is a valid premise.

    Gawd... C'mon, Minniman! You seem like a smart guy. Have you missed the whole part of why there even is a huge evaluation processes leading up to the draft? Everything is based on evaluation of how a player will do in the NFL. There's a reason why Cordarrelle is described as a unique player and ranked accordingly. ... For Christ' sake, read the post before you comment! I gave Patterson a low-first round value.
    I have seen draft boards showing Patterson going at various places in the second round. Walterfootball, where your draft chart link is located, had him at 41 in their mock draft. That is nine picks into round two for a 490 value. You valued him at 19 picks higher.

    I don't know the future. That's why the closest thing to a real evaluation of a team's draft is through how we PREDICT how the players will do in the NFL from studying tape and other variables ... I can't believe I actually have to say this: YES, it's impossible to tell how a player will perform. There's a chance Patterson will do nothing in the NFL and an undrafted guy might be the next Jerry Rice. No one knows the future, but there's a way to get a better look on how it might develop. For example, the chances of Patterson succeeding in the NFL is much bigger than T.J. Moe by evaluating the players. That's why they're drafted where they're drafted.
    I agree. Patterson is a much better prospect than T.J. Moe. That is why it is important to consider losing a player like Harvin. He is a known quantity. Of course, his value is debatable as well.

    HEY, for the most part, I agree with you. The Vikings did get some potential stars in the draft. I feel better about it than the 2005 draft, which was similar with the Moss trade involved. I did not believe Williamson was even a first round grade, and passing on the defensive players early was a mistake. Passing on Aaron Rodgers when he dropped upset me, and when the Packers picked him up, it was like taking a double punch to the gut. In hindsight, I was right about that draft. I feel much better about this one, but I could be wrong. I know you feel better too.

  2. #12
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    The Vikings had a ridiculous number of picks going into the draft. We got some due to the loss of Harvin. One of those picks will help keep depth up in next years draft. We replaced him with Patterson in this draft. Plus we played really well while Harvin was out last year. It is about how guys fit the sceme of the team. In my mind we actually replaced Harvin as a WR with the addition of Jennings. I want to give the ball to AD if it is going to be a running play.

    Back to the draft.......

    On ESPN, Mel Kyper gave us a B and the Packers a B+. I am biased but I am giving us an A-. I believe we did well filling more holes. Thompson took a calculated gamble on Lacey by waiting to the second round to take him. That was the position they needed first but he was able to take another talented player in the first by holding his RB pick to the second. With that said, the Vikings pulled off a feat by getting 3 guys that were first round talent instead of getting one 1st round talent, one 2nd round talent and one 3rd round talent.

    Yes, some may say that Rhodes or Patterson were not guaranteed to go in the first round, but to that I would say that they would have been taken before the 23rd pick in the second round. He probably would have been taken before the 20th pick in the 2nd which is the pick that we gave to the Pats. I know people were concerned that we should pick a MLB, we could have taken Teo instead of Patterson. Teo was taken with the 6th pick in the 2nd. BTW, Mayock told a great story of sitting in with one LB coach while they interviewed Teo. Stated that the kid was above average on football intelligence and the LB coach said that was the best implementation of how to run their scheme that he had seen in all the years of coaching. Anyway, we didn't take a LB, probably because we already took the BPA with Floyd and a tall athletic CB to play against Marshall and Megatron.

    To talk about depth, we added to OLs for competition in camp and possible practice squad guys. We also added DT at the very end that Rick said was just too good not to take with the final pick. We got a punter that will probably win the job over Kluwe. We got 1 LB that should be able to go this year and hopefully be able to cover against the pass. The other LB was higher ranked but went low due to excessive injuries, which Rick commented on at the post draft presser. Rick said that we have the best medical staff around and they checked Mauti out and he passed.

    I am pleased so far. Willing to let time tell on the actual results.

  3. #13
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    Kiper is a dumbass.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY View Post
    *rolling my eyes* Of course this ignores Percy Harvin. This is an isolated look at how the Vikings performed in the draft. If we're gonna factor in that type of stuff then we might as well include Greg Jennings and everything. People, try to keep up!
    Have you also been rolling your eyes every time someone said we got Williamson for Moss or how poor of a pick he was considering what we gave up for him? I've seen that comparison made several times over the years.

    I believe that's the point he was trying to make. We traded a player for a 1st round pick & that players value does play a part in what we got in compensation. Jennings was a FA signing & no draft picks were involved.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY View Post
    We have all seen fans and experts declare the Vikings's draft this or that (almost all positive reviews), but have we really seen a good justification of it all?

    I had an idea today on how to put the Vikings' draft in very a different perspective and to grade the Vikings draft in a more scientifically and accurate manner. As many draft grades are based on one writer's opinion, my approach is very different as it's based on the draft value chart and how each player is valued by the majority of experts.

    You can call it... the "Draft Value Contra Majority Projection" Method. Or simply "DVCMP"

    The value chart is used by NFL general managers and coaches when making trades on draft day. I have not taken the time to go through all the respected major draft sites, but I have used a few that I generally find very professional as my source1. And as a way to reduce the effect that my bias might have on the end-result, I decided to grade the players toward lower projections rather than higher.

    For example, most Vikings fans were not expecting that Cordarrelle Patterson would be available with the Vikings' first pick in round 1 before the draft (some sources had Patterson drafted as high as in the top 10). I gave Patterson a 780 point value here. That's equal to the 22nd pick of the draft which is the pick right before the Vikings' first draft pick.

    The total value of a normal draft without any trades (the 23rd selection in each round, 1 through 7)

    760+350+155+56+31+18,2+5,4 = 1375,6

    The total value for Vikings draft without any trades during the draft

    (I'm gonna jump over the boring calculation here) = 2274,8

    Okay, the Vikings clearly did a good job rounding up some serious firepower before the draft. Now lets see how it all paned out after an exciting full three days of drafting and a couple of trades:

    2200+740+780+200+25+70+31+29+21 = 4096

    I went into this without knowing what type of result to expect, but 4096 points out of one single draft is incredible. A normal team would not even get that value after two years of drafting. It's ridiculous! To put it in perspective: If the Vikings were to pick with number 23 every year they would have a combine draft value of 4126 after 3 years. That's just barely more than they had this year alone according to the estimates.

    Also important to the evaluation process is whether the Vikings have lost any draft picks in future drafts. In this case, the Vikings have not given up any future picks. (In fact, the Vikings got an extra mid-round pick next year for the Harvin-trade)

    Grade for Vikings 2013 draft: A++


    1 NFL.com 2013 NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com WalterFootball.com
    I liked our draft but not as much as most and I am a little confused about the type ofplayers drafted. Floyd, for example, is a great 3 tech in the tampa two, nice addition. Maybe we can even move Williams to the NT pos. and improve two spots on teh d-line. Rhodes who is great in press man has me wondering if we are trying to change from our tampa two. He is the second press man CB in the last two drafts (Robinson last year). Great talent bu tdoes he fit our sheme? Patterson is a great talent but I was concerned drafting him because our coaches are not known for coaching people up (I like this pick alot better now that we have Jennings and he may be able to help the kid). Hodge is a good pick but if we play him at will he may be a little slow (4.71 forty). If we can get a starter out of him this will be a very good draft. Mauti could be a steal if he can come back from his acl surgery, he was a great player for PSU and a very instinctive guy in the middle (great presence in the locker room, no pun intended). If he can get his speed back he will be a very good MIKE. Baca and Bond are good value picks and will either start or be great depth for us. The punter was a bit of a head scrather as Kluwe is still a very solid punter in the league.

    If those palyers come and produce we will have had another great draft and on our way to being a super bowl contender.

    There s only two things stopping you - fear and common sense!! The Truth you CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

  6. #16
    NordicNed is offline Jersey Retired
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    Harvin Who? I feel this way, Harvin had yet to give us a full season of play, to hell with his headaches, he gave me one every year. Yes, a great dynamic player, returns and slot receiver. Many will argue with me, but I still believe he was a ME player and NOT a TEAM Player. Cancer at times in the locker room also and he was a thorn in Coaches sides at times.
    Patterson, Can run Slot and Deep, has great run after catch ability, like Percy. Runs like a running back when he has the ball. Very talented at KR's and Punt Returns, time will tell but I think he will end up bring just as much production to the team as Percy did in this category. Not to mention we did pick up Jennings to groom this kid, something I find hard seeing Percy doing for him. Plus Jennings adds the deep threat we where looking for.
    I really like the pic and think between signing Jennings and Drafting Patterson, we cover, if not, make out better, what we lost in letting Percy go....


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  7. #17
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    Heard one of the analysts on Sirius this morning talking about "Grading" the draft and dumb it really is to try and say one team did better than another based on were a "Internet" site had players set at.

    Truth of the matter, even though I agree with him, you can take it one step further and say that it is even dumber than that because each and every "Internet" site has the players graded/ranked differently.

    Then reality sets in and each and every team has the players ranked differently.

    In the end, I think the Vikes did pretty good based on the following:

    a. They added talent at the top that should be instant starters or at least provide significant help in a rotation.

    b. Each of the players selected at the top fit the scheme they are coming into.

    c. Each of the players selected at the bottom seemed to have played multiple positions (MLB, OLB/1 Tech, 3 Tech etc) which should make it easier for the coaches to get them ready to play at the level expected this year.

    Might not mean they will be a starter, it means they might just be asked to play on ST's and learn the role they will eventually step into after a year, or three based on their development.

    Sharif = Has played all 5 of the DL positions. Seems to be a disruptive force no matter were he lines up. Should be able to line up at the 1 tech right away and start to eat doubles that are now being faced by the 3 and 5 tech. A bit undersized to play the 1 tech but should be able to add weight to do it at the next level. Needs to work on rushing the passer from the inside positions but should eventually figure that out......Grade - Hell Ya.

    Rhodes = Is a perfect fit for the "press zone" we are trying to run. Big enough to physically route receivers into the zone based on the pre-snap alignments. Disengages from his coverage responsiblity to help limit YAC. Does a good job supporting the run. Has some problems playing man (draws alot of penalties) but we don't play man now do we?....Grade - Hell Ya.

    Cordarrelle Patterson - Can get separation right off the line. Works well in traffic and can body up against defenders and box them out which makes him a threat in the red zone and when the chains need to be moved. Very fluid and fast for his size. When the ball gets into his hands he makes something happen. Is a natural hands catcher but will get caught out of position on his routes with will cause the ball to arrive in his body instead of out in front of him. Has to learn how to run the route tree to alleviate that problem especially for teams that run variants of the WCO were timing is critical. Will get caught pushing off at times. I think the staff will focus this years growth to the 3, 4, 5 and 6 routes which is were he will be the most dangerous and were we need the most help. Grade - Not Quite a Hell Ya. But close.

    OLB Gerald Hodges - Started out as a S, finished as a OLB who has played some MLB when needed. Gives the staff some flexibility in were he can line up and play because of that experience but I suspect he will stay an OLB, probably the WILL. Gives the staff the option of moving Erin into the Mike role if necessary which could make him a starter this year. Because he has already added 30 to 35 lbs when he made the move from S to OLB, I don't think he can add the weight needed to play the Mike. Assumption on my part is he will see lots of reps on ST's and fill in on the rotation if called upon. Grade - Very Nice Project/Possible Starter after some development.

    Jeff Locke - Ranked at the top of the nation in punting his whole career. Provides a booming leg on kickoffs if Walsh starts to get dinged. Has worked as a holder before. Makes Kluweless expendable and not because of his off field stuff either. Guy has been going down hill for 3 years. Grade - Not Quite a Hell Ya. But close.

    Jeff Baca - Extremely physical but undersized G who excels in run blocking but is will need work in pass protection. Is a bit slow of foot when pulling but will get the job done. Projected as a G but I think he was drafted to add depth on the OL especially at C incase Sully isn't ready to go or has a set back. Grade - OK project who can make the cut.

    Mike Mauti - Projected as a OLB even though he has played the Mike. Player who gets by on instincts more than talent who is a good but not great athlete who out works his competition. Knee injuries caused him to slip or he would have gone higher. If everything works out, he could be your camp starter at the Mike position. Grade - Very nice "Roll of the dice" pick/Possible Starter.

    Travis Bond - Projects as a G at the next level but has played RT, LT, RG and LG in college. Has trouble with his weight but if he can keep it in the 330's he could compete for a starting job. Not as quick of foot as you would like so I assume they will work him out at the G position with him possibly challenging to start at the RG spot. Grade - Not Quite a Hell Ya. But close mostly because he out hit a truck.

    Everett Dawkins - Quick off the line and very powerful even though he has short arms and is a bit undersized to play the position, should evolve into a good 3 tech if he can add some weight and learn to use his hands as well as some additional counter moves. Is a great (above average) run diffender who always seems to find the RB before he can get into his gap. Grade - Not Quite a Hell Ya. But close.

    One thing to remember about all of these players. They can all play multiple positions whithin their own position and make us better in more ways than just one.

    Over all grade........Grade - Not Quite a Hell Ya. But close.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrdro View Post
    In the end, I think the Vikes did pretty good based on the following:

    a. They added talent at the top that should be instant starters or at least provide significant help in a rotation.

    b. Each of the players selected at the top fit the scheme they are coming into.

    c. Each of the players selected at the bottom seemed to have played multiple positions (MLB, OLB/1 Tech, 3 Tech etc) which should make it easier for the coaches to get them ready to play at the level expected this year.
    That could be said about a lot of the drafts we had, but in the end a lot of players don't pan out like we thought they would.

    It's easy to say we had a good draft after it's over & we haven't seen them play yet.

    Last year there were a lot of fans high on the Childs pick as well, but so far he hasn't panned out.

    A lot of players we selected in the past were felt to be immediate impact players, but we never saw it come to fruition. That happens to every team, some more so than others.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  9. #19
    NordicNed is offline Jersey Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    That could be said about a lot of the drafts we had, but in the end a lot of players don't pan out like we thought they would.

    It's easy to say we had a good draft after it's over & we haven't seen them play yet.

    Last year there were a lot of fans high on the Childs pick as well, but so far he hasn't panned out.

    A lot of players we selected in the past were felt to be immediate impact players, but we never saw it come to fruition. That happens to every team, some more so than others.
    Come on Singer, I thought you where better than this statement. Dam! Kid had a terrible injury, what more needs to be said? Panned out? He never even had a chance. His camp time looked promissing, and hopefully his recovery is going well for him. I still have hope for the kid.


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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordicNed View Post
    Come on Singer, I thought you where better than this statement. Dam! Kid had a terrible injury, what more needs to be said? Panned out? He never even had a chance. His camp time looked promissing, and hopefully his recovery is going well for him. I still have hope for the kid.
    I said he hasn't panned out yet. That doesn't mean he will or won't. It just means we don't know yet.

    We've had huge hopes for players we've signed before as well & then injuries hit them. Some ended up still being fine while others could never overcome the injuries. Greenway & James come to mind.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

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