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  1. #41
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RK. View Post
    I really hate losing seasons because we are reduced to stupid discussions like this.
    Truth...
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    History tells us that consistently successful franchises have better talent evaluation and coaching than those who aren't successful.
    I hope for someone who can find talent no matter where they pick in the draft.
    Hoping for losses to get a better pick is a personal choice that is understandable for a fan base longing for a franchise QB.
    But a better pick doesn't often equal or insure success.
    I don't want any players coming back next year with a comfort for losing.
    New coaches and better player acquisition skills could turn this team around in short order if the right people are hired to do the job; regardless of where the Vikings pick in the draft.
    I would add stability and a firm belief in an identity by the FO on top of that. In our case, at this moment, the best chance we have at that is with Spielman. The bigger picture items really should be his and if we continue to fail, then he should be let go and another GM brought in.

    The current coaching staff were not Spielman's hires. The most recent draft picks and FA signings are his and he has brought in some good talent. Talent is useless without good coaches. Can Spielman bring in the right coaches and will the Wilf's allow him to do it. This offseason would be a good time to give him a shot at it.

    But, I do agree that good teams find value in any draft regardless of where they pick. Picking early, really just equates to one more quality pick than those picking at the end of the first round. Those that continue to pick early in the draft are about as competent at picking players in the draft as we are. Then there's Jerry....

  3. #43
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    I root for the vikings to win every game, but on a season like this, I tend to focus more on individual players and their success. AP last year, and the development of Patterson this year for instance. Loses no longer upset me, but then, I do not expect much from this coaching staff.

    I could never root for my team to lose, but I'm also not in a position to dictate to others how THEY feel about our team, nor what constitutes a "good fan". We are expected to give the players a hundred chances when they screw up off the field, to never boo our team when they give up or not play up to the money they are being paid, pay huge amounts of hard earned money for tickets and food, and forgive complete incompetence...but we are not allowed to secretly hope our win/loss record gives us draft picks so we get better?

    You root for your team how you wish; I would not want to be watching a game with a Vikings fan who is openly cheering for us to lose, it would kinda piss me off. But I will not tell them they are not a fan either. My expectation for die-hard loyalty died with free agency and the greed therein.
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.

    ~Napoleon Bonaparte on Politics

  4. #44
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    I would add stability and a firm belief in an identity by the FO on top of that. In our case, at this moment, the best chance we have at that is with Spielman. The bigger picture items really should be his and if we continue to fail, then he should be let go and another GM brought in.

    The current coaching staff were not Spielman's hires. The most recent draft picks and FA signings are his and he has brought in some good talent. Talent is useless without good coaches. Can Spielman bring in the right coaches and will the Wilf's allow him to do it. This offseason would be a good time to give him a shot at it.

    But, I do agree that good teams find value in any draft regardless of where they pick. Picking early, really just equates to one more quality pick than those picking at the end of the first round. Those that continue to pick early in the draft are about as competent at picking players in the draft as we are. Then there's Jerry....
    If they retain Spielman or hire a new GM, the Wilfs have to give the GM the power to control all football operations, including the hiring and firing of coaches.
    The owners have to step out of the way and let the GM they hire do his thing, and the GM needs to leave the coaching to the coaches he selects and hires.
    Meddling owners and GMs subvert the long term stability required for consistent success.
    Unless the owners are willing to set up this structure, it will be difficult to build an organization without dysfunction.
    They may wish to hire a consultant to assist Spielman in QB selection since he has been a failure in that department.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    If they retain Spielman or hire a new GM, the Wilfs have to give the GM the power to control all football operations, including the hiring and firing of coaches.
    The owners have to step out of the way and let the GM they hire do his thing, and the GM needs to leave the coaching to the coaches he selects and hires.
    Meddling owners and GMs subvert the long term stability required for consistent success.
    Unless the owners are willing to set up this structure, it will be difficult to build an organization without dysfunction.
    They may wish to hire a consultant to assist Spielman in QB selection since he has been a failure in that department.
    Going to respond by posting a clip from another thread by kingpin9995... Spielman has a string of failures that need to be addressed. He's had some good picks, but the bad ones far outweigh the good, especially when our team is sitting at 3-9-1.

    The OFFICIAL Fire Frazier thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpin9995 View Post
    Did you happen to notice on that great pooch kick off that Walsh was standing close to the ball like it was an on siders. As soon as the kick returner saw that he started jogging up . Tell me why a coach has a kick off guy tell the pooch before the fuking play even starts. Watch the replay. It was set up like a regular kick return with a nice wall in front of him from the 20. Absolutley inexcusable to show your hand before the kick even starts. Clusterfuk coaching as usual. People can say what they want about Frasier but when you make the same mistakes over and over again in a season.. YOU SUCK!,

    Item... Everyone in the world knew that Cassel was the best choice to lead this team to anything that looked like a winnning formula. What do the Vikings do? They fuk along with that worthless Ponder and toss a season away by Halloween in a league full of mediocrity.

    Item.... They give up three picks to move up and take Patterson. Everyone knows that he's a talented freak but that he's raw as a route running receiver. Yes, so was Percy , but you find plays for him. What do the Vikings do, start a pot sending , drunk driving idiot all year long while Patterson gets about 15 snaps a game and nary a sniff. Now we are in week 14 and they FINALLY figure out that he can rush the ball from the backfield, catch bubble screens, and actually make plays.. BRILLIANT


    Item.... We start Erin Henderson at the middle, with that bum Marvin Mitchell on the outside. How bout you start Audie Cole who has shown he knows where to be on the field to make plays as the middle guy, and have Henderson outside where he belongs. So they put Cole on waivers while Erin is in the drunk tank . Luckily he sneaks through and they resign him. THEN he starts in the middle and is much more a difference maker than Henderson ever could be.. BRILLIANT AGAIN...

    Item..... We lose in the last minute 4 times. The natives become restless on defense starting to question the defensive scheme with blown games that should have been wins. Last play against the Ravens... FROM THE FOUR YARD LINE.. COVER TWO.... TOTALLY FUKING BRILLLIANT.

    Item> Lesile Frasier has never done a thing to warrant being an NFL head coach. His relationship with Dungy and the ROONEY rule are the only things that make his name even record a blip on the radar... We hire him.... BRILLIANTLY CLUSTERFUKED...

    This team deserves what they get... oh ya. And a crooked ownership . Can't these fuksticks get anything right.. We go from that crook Mike Lynnn that fuked Max Winter where the sun don't shine... Then they get an ownership group of Fran Tarkenton. Cal Pohlad , and Irwin Jacobs, and Lynn fuks them too by controlling the voting stock. That was a death dart to this team, because what came after has been a total failure. Then we get that crook car salesman that we find out now was trying to move the team to San Antonio.. Then we get the word that a book author was going to buy. He of course did not have the money. Then that black dude that surely did not have the money. Then the crooked Wilfs... My god lets just put them back up for sale.. Maybe Oprah will buy us, and hire Dr Phil and Dr Oz as the triangle of authority. This team needs a few good docs and headshrinkers.
    Fire Spielman... fire Frazier... fire Musgrave... put the Wilfs in prison...
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    Going to respond by posting a clip from another thread by kingpin9995... Spielman has a string of failures that need to be addressed. He's had some good picks, but the bad ones far outweigh the good, especially when our team is sitting at 3-9-1.

    The OFFICIAL Fire Frazier thread



    Fire Spielman... fire Frazier... fire Musgrave... put the Wilfs in prison...
    Most of the things kingpin pointed out in that quote were Frazier decisions, not Spielman's. Were you referring to earlier in that other thread?
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by drewlovs View Post
    Most of the things kingpin pointed out in that quote were Frazier decisions, not Spielman's. Were you referring to earlier in that other thread?
    Eh... I wouldn't be to sure of that. Frazier even came out last week and said he never wanted to start Henderson at MLB, but was forced to due to personnel choices (spielman).

    Minnesota Vikings: Erin Henderson wasn't Plan A at MLB - ESPN

    Also, the signing of Josh Freeman was 100% Spielman. That is widely available knowledge.

    Spielman: Signing Josh Freeman 'by no means' reflects Ponder failure - Minnesota Vikings news | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Vikings

    Despite Kingpin referring to many of these decisions as Frazier's, Spielman actually has a lot (if not most) of the say on the roster.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  8. #48
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    If Spielman was responsible for Freeman's signing, Frazier was responsible for that Monday Night monstrosity. That was as close of a NFL temper tantrum as I have ever seen, he went out and made SURE Freeman would fail. Someone like that should not be a head coach.

    As far as Henderson, I got the distinct impression Spielman made a lot of last year's draft decisions with less say going to Frazier than he wanted. More and more, this is developing into a GM-Coach power struggle, and Frazier doesn't mind our team going into the shitter if he doesn't get his way.

    I personally would give Spielman a "one or done" last season to prove he is doing well, and give him the chance to pick his own coach to make that happen. I cannot complain about last year's draft, and the Patterson move was brilliant. There were a lot of teams refusing to consider him due to the lack of experience, and Spielman put what was left of his reputation on the line to get him.
    Last edited by drewlovs; 12-11-2013 at 02:48 PM.
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    Eh... I wouldn't be to sure of that. Frazier even came out last week and said he never wanted to start Henderson at MLB, but was forced to due to personnel choices (spielman).

    Minnesota Vikings: Erin Henderson wasn't Plan A at MLB - ESPN

    Also, the signing of Josh Freeman was 100% Spielman. That is widely available knowledge.

    Spielman: Signing Josh Freeman 'by no means' reflects Ponder failure - Minnesota Vikings news | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Vikings

    Despite Kingpin referring to many of these decisions as Frazier's, Spielman actually has a lot (if not most) of the say on the roster.
    I'm pretty sure that Frazier is making most of the roster decisions.

    Frazier may have preferred Brinkley, and from the aspect of renewing contracts, that does probably fall to Spielman, but once the roster is set, Frazier takes over who plays and where. Frazier made the decision to move Henderson to MLB because he wanted someone with knowledge in the Vikings system running the defense. If it was Spielman's choice he would have put his new FA (Bishop) in from the start.

    On Freeman, I don't know what the story is on this deal. I suspect Spielman saw a chance to get a potential starting QB talent and had the opportunity to add him to the roster without a lot of investment/commitment. However, Frazier should still have the decision on whether he should start. Spielman may have pushed Frazier to get him out there and once he flopped he relinquished back to Frazier and Frazier picks the devil he knows.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Frazier is making most of the roster decisions.

    Frazier may have preferred Brinkley, and from the aspect of renewing contracts, that does probably fall to Spielman, but once the roster is set, Frazier takes over who plays and where. Frazier made the decision to move Henderson to MLB because he wanted someone with knowledge in the Vikings system running the defense. If it was Spielman's choice he would have put his new FA (Bishop) in from the start.

    On Freeman, I don't know what the story is on this deal. I suspect Spielman saw a chance to get a potential starting QB talent and had the opportunity to add him to the roster without a lot of investment/commitment. However, Frazier should still have the decision on whether he should start. Spielman may have pushed Frazier to get him out there and once he flopped he relinquished back to Frazier and Frazier picks the devil he knows.
    I disagree with a few points in your post, but mostly wanted to mention something about the highlighted sentence above... our coaching staff cannot evaluate talent. It is something that has plagued us since the Childress regime and it still haunts us today (considering our coaching staff is just leftovers from that regime anyways...)

    If, as you say, Frazier was responsible for starting Henderson over Cole, who was also cut mid-season, then he is completely incapable of evaluating talent during practice and preseason. Cole didn't just step into the MLB position and MIRACULOUSLY become a good linebacker, he's simply a very good linebacker that got overlooked because of his age and perceived lack of experience... it obviously had nothing to do with his talent on the field. It couldn't have.

    It's similar to what's going on with Patterson... our staff simply refused to get these players involved until recently, blaming the players for "not knowing the playbook." In reality, it is our coach's complete lack of ingenuity and imagination to be able to get these guys involved on the field. (similar to when Childress was starting Bobby Wade and Bernard Berrian over Sydney Rice, until Favre came in during the 2009 season and had the conversation with Childress on the sideline during a mic'ed up segment. He told Childress that no one can cover Sidney Rice... Childress responded with "You've always said that." to which Favre flat-out said, "Maybe now you'll listen to me." Rice went on to have 1,300 yards and 8 TDs.)

    For whatever reason, our coaches either don't like getting young talent involved in the game plan or they simply aren't intelligent enough to adapt their gameplan to the talent on their roster... either way, it's hurt the team for the past 7 years.
    Last edited by C Mac D; 12-12-2013 at 08:37 AM.
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