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  1. #21
    Purplemania is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "The" wrote:
    I still don't buy that our CB's are a problem or even a weakness. Sure, the younger ones will make mistakes from time to time, but when the opponent's QB has all freakin' day to throw on nearly every down, someone is bound to get open. The rush did pretty well against the Falcons, but seems to be regressing ever since.


    We just aren't getting enough pressure on QB's, plain and simple. Even if every one of our DB's were probowlers it wouldn't prevent completions from a decent QB that feels no pressure.
    Maybe. Seeing as how Winfield did an excellent job on Driver only makes me wonder if we had a cloning machine...
    Because I'm a Vikings fan, they are that much sexier.

  2. #22
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "kevoncox" wrote:
    "Overlord" wrote:
    Hall would certainly be an upgrade in terms of talent, but I don't think it would be worth it for us.
    First, we're primarily a zone team.
    I doubt he'd be happy in that role.
    That brings us to number two, that he has problems with his ego/mouth/brain.
    I don't know that he fits with the team attitude we're trying to develop.
    Third, he's got two years left on his rookie contract.
    Even if we could get him here, as soon as he became a free agent he would go somewhere else for a ton of money.

    With talented players you're always willing to take some risks.
    But the cost here would almost certainly be too much for what we'd get.

    Also, unless they're just posturing, the Falcons have said that they will NOT trade him this year.
    With only a few weeks to get anything done, I don't think anyone is going to offer anything to change their minds.
    What makes you think he will leave. We off the right money and or franchise tag him... Other teams use it, why not us.
    Three reasons:

    1) My impression, based on random news clippings I remember or don't to varying degrees, is that Hall seems to be a prima donna/party/club type guy.
    I don't see Minneapolis being attractive to him in that regard.
    I also don't think he would fit with most of the guys on our team, who tend to be blue-collar type guys.
    Compare Winfield to Hall.
    Greenway to Hall.
    Sharper to Hall.
    Birk to Hall.
    Tarvaris to Hall.
    On down the line, I feel like we have guys that are players first, and everything else is secondary.
    Hall seems like a showtime guy to me.
    He's about the fame and the perks, and happens to be really good.


    2) We're not going to offer him as much money as he'd be able to get elsewhere.
    We saw Indy let their two starting CBs go this last offseason.
    Why?
    Because they're not as valuable in the cover 2 system.
    That money is better spent elsewhere for the Vikes.
    There aren't many man-to-man shutdown corners in the league, but there are plenty of guys that can do an adequate job playing zone.

    3) The system doesn't fit his skills.
    I think he's kind of like Smoot, a guy that is a man-to-man guy and would get frustrated in the system.
    I'm not sure it'd be terrible, but for a guy that likes to mouth off, any bit could be frustrating.

    So that's kind of my thinking.
    Obviously, he's a good player and I'd love to have that talent on the team.
    But I don't think the benefit is better than the cost would be.
    Especially since it would probably cost us at least our first round pick if we wanted to get him.
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  3. #23
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    I understand the want for a better pass defense, but trading for Hall would be a total knne jerk reaction. Also consider the fact that we have had many opportunities to win teh game because of our D.They are doing a fine job. It is the offense, just as it was last year, that needs to pick it up.

    Griffin and McCauley will get better with experience. Consider the fact that we played one of the best passing offenses, and I'm not worried. We held the Lions to 20 points. They are a top 5 passing team. We held the Chiefs to 13 points. Any D that turns in a 13 point day should expect a W. We held the Packers to 23 points. Another top 5 passing team. Our DBs could be so much worse its laughable.

    If anything Griffin is the youngest player on a very good defense. His inexperience means some mistakes, and that is the same with McCauley. Just give them time, and they will be fine. They are showing twice as much promise as TJ is up to this point.

    By the way, on the first TD, McCauley did his job on shading
    the outside. He could have had tighter coverage yes, but the Safety was dragged out on that play and the inside was exposed. He got beat by a great QB.

    On the second Td it was a pump fake who froze the saftey. There could have been better coverage sure, but a young guy like that can't be expected to be perfect in one-on-one situations like that. Just give them time. Besides, the D clearly is not one of our biggest problems.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  4. #24
    Purplemania is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "V" wrote:
    I understand the want for a better pass defense, but trading for Hall would be a total knne jerk reaction. Also consider the fact that we have had many opportunities to win teh game because of our D.They are doing a fine job. It is the offense, just as it was last year, that needs to pick it up.

    Griffin and McCauley will get better with experience. Consider the fact that we played one of the best passing offenses, and I'm not worried. We held the Lions to 20 points. They are a top 5 passing team. We held the Chiefs to 13 points. Any D that turns in a 13 point day should expect a W. We held the Packers to 23 points. Another top 5 passing team. Our DBs could be so much worse its laughable.

    If anything Griffin is the youngest player on a very good defense. His inexperience means some mistakes, and that is the same with McCauley. Just give them time, and they will be fine. They are showing twice as much promise as TJ is up to this point.

    By the way, on the first TD, McCauley did his job on shading
    the outside. He could have had tighter coverage yes, but the Safety was dragged out on that play and the inside was exposed. He got beat by a great QB.

    On the second Td it was a pump fake who froze the saftey. There could have been better coverage sure, but a young guy like that can't be expected to be perfect in one-on-one situations like that. Just give them time. Besides, the D clearly is not one of our biggest problems.
    Agree on the McCauley analysis. However, Cedric Griffin is another story. He's been beat repeatedly in all the games thus far. Lazy, as the commentators have said, about moving his feet and hips.
    Because I'm a Vikings fan, they are that much sexier.

  5. #25
    grpape is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    I would rather have a (QB, OL, "stud" DE), if we're gonna trade away picks. Like others have stated, better pass rush and more experiece will help the pass D two fold.

  6. #26
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "Purplemania" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    I understand the want for a better pass defense, but trading for Hall would be a total knne jerk reaction. Also consider the fact that we have had many opportunities to win teh game because of our D.They are doing a fine job. It is the offense, just as it was last year, that needs to pick it up.

    Griffin and McCauley will get better with experience. Consider the fact that we played one of the best passing offenses, and I'm not worried. We held the Lions to 20 points. They are a top 5 passing team. We held the Chiefs to 13 points. Any D that turns in a 13 point day should expect a W. We held the Packers to 23 points. Another top 5 passing team. Our DBs could be so much worse its laughable.

    If anything Griffin is the youngest player on a very good defense. His inexperience means some mistakes, and that is the same with McCauley. Just give them time, and they will be fine. They are showing twice as much promise as TJ is up to this point.

    By the way, on the first TD, McCauley did his job on shading
    the outside. He could have had tighter coverage yes, but the Safety was dragged out on that play and the inside was exposed. He got beat by a great QB.

    On the second Td it was a pump fake who froze the saftey. There could have been better coverage sure, but a young guy like that can't be expected to be perfect in one-on-one situations like that. Just give them time. Besides, the D clearly is not one of our biggest problems.
    Agree on the McCauley analysis. However, Cedric Griffin is another story. He's been beat repeatedly in all the games thus far. Lazy, as the commentators have said, about moving his feet and hips.
    To give up on a guy this quickly is psychotic. A year ago we were praising Griffin for being the answer to Smoot. Now people want McCauley in for Griffin.. What is McCauley has some bad games next year? Are we going to be calling for his head too?

    How does DB pop out as your biggest need than us? I don't give a hoot what the announcers say, I watch and form my own opinions. That being that yes, he has gotten beat. It's probably because they throw his way 20 times a game. He gets beat 3-4 times. He has gotten beat deep once? Why do people point out this, but ignore the fact that he has 27 tackles, two less than Winfield and Greenway? Why do people not admit that the coaches made a mistake by putting him on KC's best receiver?

    Otherwise, it is all coachable. Getting a better bump at the line. Backpedalling until you are sure the guy is going deep. Looking back for the ball. It's just something that will come with time. I'll wait till he has a Smoot-like day before I make any serious critcisms of the kid.

    We don't need another shutdown corner. We need a RT. We need a QB. We need a better OC. If we find those things, you will see too that we are fine on defense.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  7. #27
    Purplemania is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "V" wrote:
    "Purplemania" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    I understand the want for a better pass defense, but trading for Hall would be a total knne jerk reaction. Also consider the fact that we have had many opportunities to win teh game because of our D.They are doing a fine job. It is the offense, just as it was last year, that needs to pick it up.

    Griffin and McCauley will get better with experience. Consider the fact that we played one of the best passing offenses, and I'm not worried. We held the Lions to 20 points. They are a top 5 passing team. We held the Chiefs to 13 points. Any D that turns in a 13 point day should expect a W. We held the Packers to 23 points. Another top 5 passing team. Our DBs could be so much worse its laughable.

    If anything Griffin is the youngest player on a very good defense. His inexperience means some mistakes, and that is the same with McCauley. Just give them time, and they will be fine. They are showing twice as much promise as TJ is up to this point.

    By the way, on the first TD, McCauley did his job on shading
    the outside. He could have had tighter coverage yes, but the Safety was dragged out on that play and the inside was exposed. He got beat by a great QB.

    On the second Td it was a pump fake who froze the saftey. There could have been better coverage sure, but a young guy like that can't be expected to be perfect in one-on-one situations like that. Just give them time. Besides, the D clearly is not one of our biggest problems.
    Agree on the McCauley analysis. However, Cedric Griffin is another story. He's been beat repeatedly in all the games thus far. Lazy, as the commentators have said, about moving his feet and hips.
    To give up on a guy this quickly is psychotic. A year ago we were praising Griffin for being the answer to Smoot. Now people want McCauley in for Griffin.. What is McCauley has some bad games next year? Are we going to be calling for his head too?

    How does DB pop out as your biggest need than us? I don't give a hoot what the announcers say, I watch and form my own opinions. That being that yes, he has gotten beat. It's probably because they throw his way 20 times a game. He gets beat 3-4 times. He has gotten beat deep once? Why do people point out this, but ignore the fact that he has 27 tackles, two less than Winfield and Greenway? Why do people not admit that the coaches made a mistake by putting him on KC's best receiver?

    Otherwise, it is all coachable. Getting a better bump at the line. Backpedalling until you are sure the guy is going deep. Looking back for the ball. It's just something that will come with time. I'll wait till he has a Smoot-like day before I make any serious critcisms of the kid.

    We don't need another shutdown corner. We need a RT. We need a QB. We need a better OC. If we find those things, you will see too that we are fine on defense.
    For one, he gained significant weight in the offseason that has made him slower. I like Griffin too, don't get me wrong. But he does seem to have lazy habbits that I'm afraid will effect his career down the road. Not moving his hips, lazy tackling, to name a few. I do hope he comes around because like I said, I really like Griffin. And teams know Griffin is the guy to pick on. For the love of God, Lavarr Martin or whatever his name is, beat Griffin twice deep.

    I think what I want is for Griffin to play more motivated. More hungry, like he did last year when he was trying to earn that starting spot.
    Because I'm a Vikings fan, they are that much sexier.

  8. #28
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "V" wrote:
    To give up on a guy this quickly is psychotic. A year ago we were praising Griffin for being the answer to Smoot. Now people want McCauley in for Griffin.. What is McCauley has some bad games next year? Are we going to be calling for his head too?

    How does DB pop out as your biggest need than us? I don't give a hoot what the announcers say, I watch and form my own opinions. That being that yes, he has gotten beat. It's probably because they throw his way 20 times a game. He gets beat 3-4 times. He has gotten beat deep once? Why do people point out this, but ignore the fact that he has 27 tackles, two less than Winfield and Greenway? Why do people not admit that the coaches made a mistake by putting him on KC's best receiver?

    Otherwise, it is all coachable. Getting a better bump at the line. Backpedalling until you are sure the guy is going deep. Looking back for the ball. It's just something that will come with time. I'll wait till he has a Smoot-like day before I make any serious critcisms of the kid.

    We don't need another shutdown corner. We need a RT. We need a QB. We need a better OC. If we find those things, you will see too that we are fine on defense.
    I haven't been happy with Griffin this year, but you're right that we don't need another shutdown corner.


    Griffin has missed a few tackles (I'm thinking 3rd and long in Kansas City) and has done a poor job playing up on receivers.
    He needs to concentrate more on the former and practice to get better at the latter.
    These are not deadly sins.
    He just hasn't played perfect football.

    The touchdowns he's given up are tough to pin on the guy.
    He's just not as big, strong, or fast as those rookie recievers.
    In jump ball situations, he will lose that almost everytime.


    Would Winfield do better though?
    He's giving up even more height and size.
    We don't have anybody to match up with those types of players.
    Hall isn't a guy that can do that either.
    He's another short (5'10") guy.
    If we need to go after another corner, we need to find someone that's 6'4" and can run.
    I think those guys all play WR though.

    "V" wrote:
    By the way, on the first TD, McCauley did his job on shading
    the outside. He could have had tighter coverage yes, but the Safety was dragged out on that play and the inside was exposed. He got beat by a great QB.
    Thanks for that info.
    I was wondering what happened.
    I never saw the safety or where he was supposed to be.
    Apparently the other team draws up plays to attack our defense and get people out of position.
    Who knew?
    When the age of the Vikings came to a close, they must have sensed it. Probably, they gathered together one evening, slapped each other on the back and said, "Hey, good job." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  9. #29
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "Purplemania" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "Purplemania" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    I understand the want for a better pass defense, but trading for Hall would be a total knne jerk reaction. Also consider the fact that we have had many opportunities to win teh game because of our D.They are doing a fine job. It is the offense, just as it was last year, that needs to pick it up.

    Griffin and McCauley will get better with experience. Consider the fact that we played one of the best passing offenses, and I'm not worried. We held the Lions to 20 points. They are a top 5 passing team. We held the Chiefs to 13 points. Any D that turns in a 13 point day should expect a W. We held the Packers to 23 points. Another top 5 passing team. Our DBs could be so much worse its laughable.

    If anything Griffin is the youngest player on a very good defense. His inexperience means some mistakes, and that is the same with McCauley. Just give them time, and they will be fine. They are showing twice as much promise as TJ is up to this point.

    By the way, on the first TD, McCauley did his job on shading
    the outside. He could have had tighter coverage yes, but the Safety was dragged out on that play and the inside was exposed. He got beat by a great QB.

    On the second Td it was a pump fake who froze the saftey. There could have been better coverage sure, but a young guy like that can't be expected to be perfect in one-on-one situations like that. Just give them time. Besides, the D clearly is not one of our biggest problems.
    Agree on the McCauley analysis. However, Cedric Griffin is another story. He's been beat repeatedly in all the games thus far. Lazy, as the commentators have said, about moving his feet and hips.
    To give up on a guy this quickly is psychotic. A year ago we were praising Griffin for being the answer to Smoot. Now people want McCauley in for Griffin.. What is McCauley has some bad games next year? Are we going to be calling for his head too?

    How does DB pop out as your biggest need than us? I don't give a hoot what the announcers say, I watch and form my own opinions. That being that yes, he has gotten beat. It's probably because they throw his way 20 times a game. He gets beat 3-4 times. He has gotten beat deep once? Why do people point out this, but ignore the fact that he has 27 tackles, two less than Winfield and Greenway? Why do people not admit that the coaches made a mistake by putting him on KC's best receiver?

    Otherwise, it is all coachable. Getting a better bump at the line. Backpedalling until you are sure the guy is going deep. Looking back for the ball. It's just something that will come with time. I'll wait till he has a Smoot-like day before I make any serious critcisms of the kid.

    We don't need another shutdown corner. We need a RT. We need a QB. We need a better OC. If we find those things, you will see too that we are fine on defense.
    For one, he gained significant weight in the offseason that has made him slower. I like Griffin too, don't get me wrong. But he does seem to have lazy habbits that I'm afraid will effect his career down the road. Not moving his hips, lazy tackling, to name a few. I do hope he comes around because like I said, I really like Griffin. And teams know Griffin is the guy to pick on. For the love of God, Lavarr Martin or whatever his name is, beat Griffin twice deep.

    I think what I want is for Griffin to play more motivated. More hungry, like he did last year when he was trying to earn that starting spot.
    See, you have come so far from wanting to trade for Hall. If you really like Griffin, and really do hope that he comes around. Then you need to give him a chance. We gave Fred Smoot 3 years for goodness sakes. I think Griffin deserves more then 4 games.

    As far as Ruvell Martin goes. I can only recall one catch for 36 yards. A couple things about that play.
    1. We tried a jailhouse blitz, but it was the worst blitz I have ever seen. It was timed horribly.
    2. Given that it was a blitz. Griffin has got to bump him at the line, knowing that he has one on one coverage. IMO that is coaching. If you tell a guy to get his hands on the receivers 100 times. He will do it eventually, especially after he gets beat like that.
    3. Even though he was beat right off the line. Griffin never gave up on that play. He needs to look back for the ball though. At least he made the tackle.

    In the end, he got beat badly. There is room for improvement, but don't give up on this guy.
    "I hate when threads are destroyed by facts and logic."
    - Prophet


    Thanks Josdin!

  10. #30
    Purplemania is offline Asst. Coach
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    Re: We should trade for Deangelo Hall

    "V" wrote:
    "Purplemania" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    "Purplemania" wrote:
    "V" wrote:
    I understand the want for a better pass defense, but trading for Hall would be a total knne jerk reaction. Also consider the fact that we have had many opportunities to win teh game because of our D.They are doing a fine job. It is the offense, just as it was last year, that needs to pick it up.

    Griffin and McCauley will get better with experience. Consider the fact that we played one of the best passing offenses, and I'm not worried. We held the Lions to 20 points. They are a top 5 passing team. We held the Chiefs to 13 points. Any D that turns in a 13 point day should expect a W. We held the Packers to 23 points. Another top 5 passing team. Our DBs could be so much worse its laughable.

    If anything Griffin is the youngest player on a very good defense. His inexperience means some mistakes, and that is the same with McCauley. Just give them time, and they will be fine. They are showing twice as much promise as TJ is up to this point.

    By the way, on the first TD, McCauley did his job on shading
    the outside. He could have had tighter coverage yes, but the Safety was dragged out on that play and the inside was exposed. He got beat by a great QB.

    On the second Td it was a pump fake who froze the saftey. There could have been better coverage sure, but a young guy like that can't be expected to be perfect in one-on-one situations like that. Just give them time. Besides, the D clearly is not one of our biggest problems.
    Agree on the McCauley analysis. However, Cedric Griffin is another story. He's been beat repeatedly in all the games thus far. Lazy, as the commentators have said, about moving his feet and hips.
    To give up on a guy this quickly is psychotic. A year ago we were praising Griffin for being the answer to Smoot. Now people want McCauley in for Griffin.. What is McCauley has some bad games next year? Are we going to be calling for his head too?

    How does DB pop out as your biggest need than us? I don't give a hoot what the announcers say, I watch and form my own opinions. That being that yes, he has gotten beat. It's probably because they throw his way 20 times a game. He gets beat 3-4 times. He has gotten beat deep once? Why do people point out this, but ignore the fact that he has 27 tackles, two less than Winfield and Greenway? Why do people not admit that the coaches made a mistake by putting him on KC's best receiver?

    Otherwise, it is all coachable. Getting a better bump at the line. Backpedalling until you are sure the guy is going deep. Looking back for the ball. It's just something that will come with time. I'll wait till he has a Smoot-like day before I make any serious critcisms of the kid.

    We don't need another shutdown corner. We need a RT. We need a QB. We need a better OC. If we find those things, you will see too that we are fine on defense.
    For one, he gained significant weight in the offseason that has made him slower. I like Griffin too, don't get me wrong. But he does seem to have lazy habbits that I'm afraid will effect his career down the road. Not moving his hips, lazy tackling, to name a few. I do hope he comes around because like I said, I really like Griffin. And teams know Griffin is the guy to pick on. For the love of God, Lavarr Martin or whatever his name is, beat Griffin twice deep.

    I think what I want is for Griffin to play more motivated. More hungry, like he did last year when he was trying to earn that starting spot.
    See, you have come so far from wanting to trade for Hall. If you really like Griffin, and really do hope that he comes around. Then you need to give him a chance. We gave Fred Smoot 3 years for goodness sakes. I think Griffin deserves more then 4 games.

    As far as Ruvell Martin goes. I can only recall one catch for 36 yards. A couple things about that play.
    1. We tried a jailhouse blitz, but it was the worst blitz I have ever seen. It was timed horribly.
    2. Given that it was a blitz. Griffin has got to bump him at the line, knowing that he has one on one coverage. IMO that is coaching. If you tell a guy to get his hands on the receivers 100 times. He will do it eventually, especially after he gets beat like that.
    3. Even though he was beat right off the line. Griffin never gave up on that play. He needs to look back for the ball though. At least he made the tackle.

    In the end, he got beat badly. There is room for improvement, but don't give up on this guy.
    Why do I want Hall? In terms of talent, they don't come even close. I'd trade for Hall anyday....but I'd be okay if we stuck with Griffin too, ya know what I mean?
    Because I'm a Vikings fan, they are that much sexier.

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