Thread: WCO/Cover 2 needs to go

Originally Posted by skum

The Cover 2 depends so much on whoever is the middle linebacker and getting a good enough pass rush from the front 4.. But we can't do that right now because our middle linebacker and DT's are not good enough as we speak..

Tough call to say on our MLB my friend. If you believe the way the announcer did yesterday when he said the MLB has to get deeper than the S's from the snap, I guess our right, but if you look at the scheme (and were Brinkley was on that play) he was in the zone just short of the S's.

Were he is supposed to be.

Go back, watch the play. What happened was Whinny made a damn bad read. He released his man to the S who was already picking up a 7 route from the other side and stuck in his zone with absolutely no one in it to cover.

Our problem does not lye with the secondary or our MLB. It lies solely on our DL and its inability to pressure the QB alone. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by SharperImage

No. You can't run a cover 2 scheme successfully anymore. NO ONE runs it as their base D anymore.

Hmmmmm, enlighten me. What teams have all these shut down corners that you speak of so that they don't run "MUCH" zone anymore.

Truth is all teams run a zone coverage. All of them and with a couple of exceptions (Jets, Ravens, Philly) rely soley on the C2/T2 scheme as their base with a bit of man mixed in to throw the offense off. Not the other way around.

Seriously, take a look around the league. Whats done on the front end (4-3/3-4) doesn't change the back end my friend.

Originally Posted by SharperImage

Winfield only has a job cause he is only useful in Cover 2, man 2 man he is dead to rights. We need a new D

Whinny only has a job because he sells tickets because he plays the run. He absolutely sucks in pass coverage.

And if you fix our DL, you will fix our pass coverage.

Originally Posted by Marrdro

Nope, wrong again. You obviously don't pay attention. What I will say is that the C2 and T2 won't work if the DL can't get pressure on the QB alone.

When that gets done the scheme works.

What you're really trying to say is if we sack the QB on every passing play, the scheme works.

Sorry Marr, but they have brought pressure and passes are still being completed on the fly. Just because there isn't a bunch of sack stats, doesn't mean there isn't pressure.

FYI, in case you forgot, we led the league in sacks last year along with the Eagles with 50. We weren't last, middle or 3rd, we were first.

But you want us to fix that?

Originally Posted by Marrdro

Whinny only has a job because he sells tickets because he plays the run. He absolutely sucks in pass coverage.

And if you fix our DL, you will fix our pass coverage.

You're contradicting yourself there Marty.

Which is it?

If we fix our DL, does Winfield still suck in pass coverage?
If we fix our DL, is Winfield's pass coverage fixed?

How about we fix our backfield so we can play man-to-man or zone & mix them both into our scheme like most teams do? If we don't have DB's fast enough to play man-to-man, then you're going to continually see our backfield get exploited, regardless of DL play.

While we're at it, why don't we teach our LB's & DB's how to tackle by actually wrapping their arms around their opponents? The constant "throw a shoulder into him & hope like hell you knock him off his feet" philosophy isn't working.

The only thing our "bend but don't break" defense is doing for us is slowing down how long it takes for teams to score against us & putting us on the losing side of takeaways vs. giveaways.

We have been the worst team in football when it comes to getting interceptions since Frazier took over.

I watched SF play a vanilla cover 2 the entire game against a very potent Detroit team and totally shut them down...not quite so dead. We need a stud MLB to be a great cover 2 defense.

Originally Posted by Chazz

I watched SF play a vanilla cover 2 the entire game against a very potent Detroit team and totally shut them down...not quite so dead. We need a stud MLB to be a great cover 2 defense.

Hey Chazz, how ya been.

I was going to jump in again and ask how our good friend thought about the C2 after watching what the Falcons just did to Manning last night using the C2.

Ho hum...... One more time for possible penetration......

Originally Posted by singersp

You're contradicting yourself there Marty.

Which is it?

If we fix our DL, does Winfield still suck in pass coverage?
If we fix our DL, is Winfield's pass coverage fixed?

Nope, as I've said many many times (most recently as this week) Whinny sucks in coverage. That is related to the coverage he is trying to run, based on the scheme we are running. HIs issue is two fold.....1) he is slow and gets beat off the line which is worse that what plaugued him his first 10 years...He is to small and beats beat up by WR's getting off the line. 2) He continues to bite up on play action and leaves his zone to stop the run. He used to be OK in this dept but again, he is to slow and can't recover well enough anymore.

How about we fix our backfield so we can play man-to-man or zone & mix them both into our scheme like most teams do? If we don't have DB's fast enough to play man-to-man, then you're going to continually see our backfield get exploited, regardless of DL play.

Hey, thats a great idea genius. Quick question, were we gonna find the CB's to do that? Look, its easy to say, hey, lets play man to man (which we do quite a bit by the way if your really paid attention to the issues you bitch at all the time), but those types of CB's just don't grow on trees and the ones that do are gainfully employed making big big bucks losing on other teams that are playing man to man.

While we're at it, why don't we teach our LB's & DB's how to tackle by actually wrapping their arms around their opponents? The constant "throw a shoulder into him & hope like hell you knock him off his feet" philosophy isn't working.

Hmmmm, are you really going to go down that path? Heres another thing for you to watch rocket scientist.....When our LB'rs fill a gap, who has the responsibility for the other gap? Ding Ding Ding Ding....Yup, we have a winner and his name is Steve.......The DLmen......

Seriously Steve, watch the beginning of the play were they miss or look bad on the tackle. 9 out of 10 times you will see that they are trying to get out of their original gap responsibility trying to help out a inept DLmen who just failed to hold his gap or (heavens forbid) missed his tackle) and sometimes can't do it.

The only thing our "bend but don't break" defense is doing for us is slowing down how long it takes for teams to score against us & putting us on the losing side of takeaways vs. giveaways.

Agreed, but what is your constant bitching about it going to do? Give you more opportunities to attack fellow PPO'rs that feel the same way you do?

In the end, this thread openly asks "Does the scheme need to go". A couple of us made very good points that it doesn't because the premise the originator used ("No one uses it anymore") is false. Not only does "No one" use it, damn near everyone uses it.

We have been the worst team in football when it comes to getting interceptions since Frazier took over.

Tomlin as well my friend. Tomlin as well. Again, the problem isn't so much the scheme, the LB'r or the DB's for cripes sake.

Again, use the 49'rs game or even better the Bronco's game last night. When did the INT's come? It wasn't from DB's free lancing and making INT"s. It came when the DL (for goodness sakes) put pressure on the QB and he made a bad throw because he was under duress and wasn't standing in a clean pocket picking apart the zone defense.

Look, I get that your frustrated, but lets tone the bitching down a bit my friend. Lets just have an open discussion again instead of, well, bitching.

Originally Posted by singersp

What you're really trying to say is if we sack the QB on every passing play, the scheme works.

Sorry Marr, but they have brought pressure and passes are still being completed on the fly. Just because there isn't a bunch of sack stats, doesn't mean there isn't pressure.

FYI, in case you forgot, we led the league in sacks last year along with the Eagles with 50. We weren't last, middle or 3rd, we were first.

But you want us to fix that?

Did I say SACK or did I say PRESSURE. Damn Steve, whats up with you lately.

Think back on how I have always touted pressure vice sacks. Hell, I usually make fun of posters who track sacks.

And this DL hasn't brought pressure. What little they've brought has been late and has been helped by the LB"rs and S's and when they do that guess what scheme the AREN'T RUNNING ANYMORE........

Open your eyes, watch the game.

When we bring a LB'r (been saying it for years) we suck at hiding it. Watch how many times we see a LB'r mugging the line long before the snap.

Again, go back and watch the Bronco's game. They brought LB'rs and S's as well but when they did you didn't see it coming.

Originally Posted by Marrdro

Did I say SACK or did I say PRESSURE. Damn Steve, whats up with you lately.

Think back on how I have always touted pressure vice sacks. Hell, I usually make fun of posters who track sacks.

And this DL hasn't brought pressure. What little they've brought has been late and has been helped by the LB"rs and S's and when they do that guess what scheme the AREN'T RUNNING ANYMORE........

Open your eyes, watch the game.

When we bring a LB'r (been saying it for years) we suck at hiding it. Watch how many times we see a LB'r mugging the line long before the snap.

Again, go back and watch the Bronco's game. They brought LB'rs and S's as well but when they did you didn't see it coming.

I'll make it simple for you. Go find the stats that show defensive QB hurries by team & show me where the Vikings are near the bottom of the list.

I believe you'll see we flush out the QB more times than you think.

I'd like to see the scheme changed, you call that frustration & bitching, yet you want to see DL & LB changes & you call it creative discussion?