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  1. #101
    mountainviking's Avatar
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    I still contend that our issues with this offense has been that our 2 starting WR's can't get open to a point that TJ feels comfortable throwing to them....
    Exactly!!
    Definitely one of our problems.
    But my question is what is causing this problem...the WRs, the routes, the defenses we've played, the TJack Jitters (lack of confidence) or the sequence plays are called in?
    Likely, a little of all of the above?

    Harris and Woodson we're holding hands with our WRs on nearly every play...Indi's secondary is decent, but not that good...sometimes it seems to me that our routes are also too vanilla.
    Maybe we need more down field route changes...ie. run straight 10 yards deep, then cut straight to the middle, or slant toward deep center or hook back or ???

    Last year, I know Shank missed some big blocks for sacks/TOs.
    This year, I haven't noticed any blatent misses...
    Control the line, control the time, and give your D a chance to shine!!

    "Balance it on end and thats the third side of the coin!!" -wookiefoot

  2. #102
    gagarr's Avatar
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    "Webby" wrote:
    [quote author=Vikes_King link=topic=47894.msg839113#msg839113 date=1221718372]
    [quote author=vikesfan713 link=topic=47894.msg839108#msg839108 date=1221717980]
    here is one for you bench shiancoe and start mills. oh yeah fire bevell and chilly
    They honestly do need to give Mills more play time, push Shiancoe to produce, and if he doesn't, sit him.
    Isn't the rub on Mills that while he's a good catching TE, he is poor in blocking?
    That is what I heard as well which is weird considering he was a FB in college
    I forget the play, however, the Vikes had a passing package out there in the Colts game and they appeared to audible to a passing play were Mills came in off the A gap to block the DT/LB that was filling it.

    That cat got rocked out of his jock.

    As I've said before, not trying to pick on Mills, I really like his stuff, however, he is a "Hybrid" type of TE and not a "Inline" guy who can take on those big guys like a Shanc or a Sauce can.

    Again, not saying he can't block, just not the big cats that he will go up against in a running play.
    Honestly what TE besides Kleinny can actually block a DE??.. not many!!.. Either way, i say play him in the two TE sets with Sass and also put him in the slot occasionally a'la Dallas Clark and Antonio gates...

    I think it would atleast give us a matchup advantage every now and then on a LB.. to move the ball...

    It's either that or crossing your fingers that Shank can actually catch a ball... and we ALL know how that works out!!
    [/quote]
    I still contend that our issues with this offense has been that our 2 starting WR's can't get open to a point that TJ feels comfortable throwing to them.

    When we have moved the ball (late in the Broncos game, in the GB game and in the Indy game) in the air it has been with 3 or 4 WR sets.
    (remember the 26 second scoring drive in the Indy game).

    I really want to get away from that 2 TE set if the OL (and it has to a point this year) can create a pocket and go with this set.....

    BB












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    But that would mean opening the playbook up a bit more and for some reason that escapes me, the still trend to the 2 TE/FB sets.

    :
    [/quote]

    IMO, the reason for the 2 TE sets were: 1. It helped the run game.
    2. It provided extra protection for TJ
    The problem with the 2 TE set is that the TE's are not good receivers, thus don't act as a reliable check down guy.

    Thus, a 3rd WR would require the D to go to the nickle and draw players away from the LOS.
    But then you need a QB that can go through his progressions, I don't think TJ could.

    As for the games you listed, Vikes were behind in each and the D's were playing prevent for the most part.
    Thus, it's expected TJ could move the ball.
    I would love to see such drives out of the gate.
    But then again Chilly wouldn't call that many pass plays in a row for TJ either unless he had too.
    Sort of a catch-22.
    [size=12pt]
    Page 148.5 **Doleman 150.5 **Randle 137.5 **Allen 73+
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  3. #103
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    If Childress would have put in the same offense Dallas is running I believe we could have been a strong team with the talent we have on the roster. I have serious doubts as to whether we will have much, if any success with this system no matter who is under center.

  4. #104
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    "gagarr" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "bleedpurple" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Garland" wrote:
    [quote author=Webby link=topic=47894.msg839286#msg839286 date=1221752187]
    [quote author=Vikes_King link=topic=47894.msg839113#msg839113 date=1221718372]
    [quote author=vikesfan713 link=topic=47894.msg839108#msg839108 date=1221717980]
    here is one for you bench shiancoe and start mills. oh yeah fire bevell and chilly
    They honestly do need to give Mills more play time, push Shiancoe to produce, and if he doesn't, sit him.
    Isn't the rub on Mills that while he's a good catching TE, he is poor in blocking?
    That is what I heard as well which is weird considering he was a FB in college
    I forget the play, however, the Vikes had a passing package out there in the Colts game and they appeared to audible to a passing play were Mills came in off the A gap to block the DT/LB that was filling it.

    That cat got rocked out of his jock.

    As I've said before, not trying to pick on Mills, I really like his stuff, however, he is a "Hybrid" type of TE and not a "Inline" guy who can take on those big guys like a Shanc or a Sauce can.

    Again, not saying he can't block, just not the big cats that he will go up against in a running play.
    Honestly what TE besides Kleinny can actually block a DE??.. not many!!.. Either way, i say play him in the two TE sets with Sass and also put him in the slot occasionally a'la Dallas Clark and Antonio gates...

    I think it would atleast give us a matchup advantage every now and then on a LB.. to move the ball...

    It's either that or crossing your fingers that Shank can actually catch a ball... and we ALL know how that works out!!
    [/quote]
    I still contend that our issues with this offense has been that our 2 starting WR's can't get open to a point that TJ feels comfortable throwing to them.

    When we have moved the ball (late in the Broncos game, in the GB game and in the Indy game) in the air it has been with 3 or 4 WR sets.
    (remember the 26 second scoring drive in the Indy game).

    I really want to get away from that 2 TE set if the OL (and it has to a point this year) can create a pocket and go with this set.....

    BB












    LT


    LG


    C

    RG

    RT






    AA





    RICE























    QB






    TE
























    RB

    But that would mean opening the playbook up a bit more and for some reason that escapes me, the still trend to the 2 TE/FB sets.

    :
    [/quote]

    IMO, the reason for the 2 TE sets were: 1. It helped the run game.
    2. It provided extra protection for TJ
    The problem with the 2 TE set is that the TE's are not good receivers, thus don't act as a reliable check down guy.

    Thus, a 3rd WR would require the D to go to the nickle and draw players away from the LOS.
    But then you need a QB that can go through his progressions, I don't think TJ could.

    As for the games you listed, Vikes were behind in each and the D's were playing prevent for the most part.
    Thus, it's expected TJ could move the ball.
    I would love to see such drives out of the gate.
    But then again Chilly wouldn't call that many pass plays in a row for TJ either unless he had too.
    Sort of a catch-22.
    [/quote]
    I will give you the run game and maybe even the protection, however, much to my chagrin Hicks and Birk have been getting it done so the protection issue isn't what I thought it was gonna be.

    As to the ability to get through his progressions, in the Indy game they showed several highlights were he did and the one I especially liked is when he did it and still delivered the ball in the face of a blitz.

    Lets not forget the 26 second drive that everyone keeps ignoring me on.
    A prevent defense, as you noted helped, however, when the announcers said they should take a knee cause they couldn't pass, they did pass and passed effectively and got the FG.

    Long story short, good protection and open WR's equate to a good TJ.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #105
    bleedpurple is offline Ring of Fame
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    If Childress would have put in the same offense Dallas is running I believe we could have been a strong team with the talent we have on the roster. I have serious doubts as to whether we will have much, if any success with this system no matter who is under center.
    AMEN BROTHER!!! AMEN!!!!

  6. #106
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    "NordicNed" wrote:
    To begin with, not a great pass, it was more on his hip.
    Shanko did almost get it into his gut and controll it, but that was followed by a very hard landing and the arm and part of the ball hitting the turf. This knocked the ball loss, much like a catch and then a defender hitting the ball dead on with his helmet. That would be a called
    a fumble, where as what happened to shank was the hard landing and turf knocked it lose. Conclusion for me, it was a very tough pass to catch and turn into a reception. Possible ?
    Yes.
    Supprised it got knocked lose, not at all.

    Shanco had a good game overall I thought. I wouldn't put the loss on his shoulders at all.

    +1

    People are quick to bash Shiancoe when he didn't catch a bad throw. That's fucked up thinking in my book. He caught a very nice hard catch later in the game that sustained a nice drive, yrt were is there any mention of that?

    If he was dropping easy catches, that would be a different matter, but ones that I've seen him not hang onto were either tough catches or where he was drilled right after grabbing it. I did see him drop one this year that I thought was definitely catchable.

    IMO, most people hatred here for Shiancoe can be traced back to that TD pass he dropped last year. That is typical of many fans that I have seen on here over the years.

    It's either 1 bad play or 1 bad game & the haters dwell on that forever & continue their hate for that player, only looking for the negative rather than looking at the overall performance objectively. Or a player has one nice great play & he is immediately crowned "a beast".

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  7. #107
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    "singersp" wrote:
    "NordicNed" wrote:
    To begin with, not a great pass, it was more on his hip.
    Shanko did almost get it into his gut and controll it, but that was followed by a very hard landing and the arm and part of the ball hitting the turf. This knocked the ball loss, much like a catch and then a defender hitting the ball dead on with his helmet. That would be a called
    a fumble, where as what happened to shank was the hard landing and turf knocked it lose. Conclusion for me, it was a very tough pass to catch and turn into a reception. Possible ?
    Yes.
    Supprised it got knocked lose, not at all.
    Shanco had a good game overall I thought. I wouldn't put the loss on his shoulders at all.

    +1

    People are quick to bash Shiancoe when he didn't catch a bad throw. That's fucked up thinking in my book. He caught a very nice hard catch later in the game that sustained a nice drive, yrt were is there any mention of that?

    If he was dropping easy catches, that would be a different matter, but ones that I've seen him not hang onto were either tough catches or where he was drilled right after grabbing it. I did see him drop one this year that I thought was definitely catchable.

    IMO, most people hatred here for Shiancoe can be traced back to that TD pass he dropped last year. That is typical of many fans that I have seen on here over the years.

    It's either 1 bad play or 1 bad game & the haters dwell on that forever & continue their hate for that player, only looking for the negative rather than looking at the overall performance objectively. Or a player has one nice great play & he is immediately crowned "a beast".
    Maybe i could agree with you but it hasnt been just 1 play or 1 game

  8. #108
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    "singersp" wrote:
    "NordicNed" wrote:
    To begin with, not a great pass, it was more on his hip.
    Shanko did almost get it into his gut and controll it, but that was followed by a very hard landing and the arm and part of the ball hitting the turf. This knocked the ball loss, much like a catch and then a defender hitting the ball dead on with his helmet. That would be a called
    a fumble, where as what happened to shank was the hard landing and turf knocked it lose. Conclusion for me, it was a very tough pass to catch and turn into a reception. Possible ?
    Yes.
    Supprised it got knocked lose, not at all.

    Shanco had a good game overall I thought. I wouldn't put the loss on his shoulders at all.

    +1

    People are quick to bash Shiancoe when he didn't catch a bad throw. That's fucked up thinking in my book. He caught a very nice hard catch later in the game that sustained a nice drive, yrt were is there any mention of that?

    If he was dropping easy catches, that would be a different matter, but ones that I've seen him not hang onto were either tough catches or where he was drilled right after grabbing it. I did see him drop one this year that I thought was definitely catchable.

    IMO, most people hatred here for Shiancoe can be traced back to that TD pass he dropped last year. That is typical of many fans that I have seen on here over the years.

    It's either 1 bad play or 1 bad game & the haters dwell on that forever & continue their hate for that player, only looking for the negative rather than looking at the overall performance objectively. Or a player has one nice great play & he is immediately crowned "a beast".
    Being totally honest here.
    Last year I backed Shiancoe up with the supposed dropped TD pass.
    If we are talking about the one against KC I thought he actually caught it and the refs blew the call.
    However that pass TJ threw him in the endzone this year was highly catchable and should have been caught.
    He has made a nice grab or two.
    However, he has dropped a couple very catchable balls.
    Sorry I can't agree with the whole give him a break here.
    He is paid too much money to drop as many passes as he has at this level.

  9. #109
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    It comes down to production and what you would expect from this position in this system.

    Last year he caught 27 balls for just under 325 yards and one TD. That put him at 30th in the league in an offense that should see much more production from the position. This year he is on pace for 32 receptions.


    Some of that is misleading because I believe he is blocking more than anticipated(Which I feel Sasser is far better at) and seeing the ball thrown his way as much, but on the plays he is not blocking, the TE should have been the position on 3rd downs that consistently helped us move the chains and he hasn't been able to do that with TJ. Some of it was bad passes at his ankles and some were drops that he should have caught.

    In the long run if he is going to be our TE, he is going to have to start making plays and getting open. Then he is going to have to hang on to the ball when he gets the chance. The whole thing with the dropped balls is this: Every TE drops passes now and then. The great ones will make several great plays between dropped passes that give the team and the fans the confidence to keep going back to them.

    So far he has not gotten to that point.

  10. #110
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    Re: Visanthe Shiancoe

    "UffDaVikes" wrote:
    It comes down to production and what you would expect from this position in this system.

    Last year he caught 27 balls for just under 325 yards and one TD. That put him at 30th in the league in an offense that should see much more production from the position. This year he is on pace for 32 receptions.


    Some of that is misleading because I believe he is blocking more than anticipated(Which I feel Sasser is far better at) and seeing the ball thrown his way as much, but on the plays he is not blocking, the TE should have been the position on 3rd downs that consistently helped us move the chains and he hasn't been able to do that with TJ. Some of it was bad passes at his ankles and some were drops that he should have caught.

    In the long run if he is going to be our TE, he is going to have to start making plays and getting open. Then he is going to have to hang on to the ball when he gets the chance. The whole thing with the dropped balls is this: Every TE drops passes now and then. The great ones will make several great plays between dropped passes that give the team and the fans the confidence to keep going back to them.

    So far he has not gotten to that point.

    That's an excellent post (because it sums up how I feel too).

    Our TE must get open and catch balls...simple. I cannot recall a single big catch made by Shiancoe. I'm not bashing him, just saying what I've believe, based on what I've seen.

    I understand they gave him a lot of money and they have to play him, but there comes a time when you have to evaluate his contribution to the team, or lack of it, and make the move accordingly.
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