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  1. #21
    keystonevike is offline Starter
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    I like Ponder, but I don't like the idea of naming him the starter now. Have an open competition for the job. Give Webb a chance to push Ponder to be better or push him out.

  2. #22
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    The most popular player on a team is always the backup QB...

    I don't agree that there needs to be any kind of QB competition. I know that Webb seems to be a favorite of some, but the fact is he didn't do anything special last year. He came in as a backup and played mediocre at best. He simply didn't do anything to warrant a competition. If he had lit up the field I could understand it... But he didn't.

    Now I realize that Ponder didn't do anything special either, but we did draft him in the first round to be the future at QB. He may or may not be, but I think it is important to be committed to him through out the offseason to give him the best chance at succeeding.

    If Ponder fails, then we need to look for a QB again. Webb is not the answer. He is a serviceable backup, but a mediocre starter at best. I saw enough mediocre QB for the Vikings during the Chilly years. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.
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  3. #23
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    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    The most popular player on a team is always the backup QB...

    I don't agree that there needs to be any kind of QB competition. I know that Webb seems to be a favorite of some, but the fact is he didn't do anything special last year. He came in as a backup and played mediocre at best. He simply didn't do anything to warrant a competition. If he had lit up the field I could understand it... But he didn't.

    Now I realize that Ponder didn't do anything special either, but we did draft him in the first round to be the future at QB. He may or may not be, but I think it is important to be committed to him through out the offseason to give him the best chance at succeeding.

    If Ponder fails, then we need to look for a QB again. Webb is not the answer. He is a serviceable backup, but a mediocre starter at best. I saw enough mediocre QB for the Vikings during the Chilly years. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.
    To late. I dusted off the spread sheets, pulled out the one "Those that have a clue" and checked.....Your name was already on it.....

    JK my friend. Excellent post.
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  4. #24
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    I personally don't see any problem with this.

    This team took Ponder in the first round with the projection of starting him. They have little choice but to put their eggs in that basket. I think if the coaches saw a SERIOUS difference ... like a guy they thought could win 8-9 games over a guy that can win 4-5 games ... then maybe you pull the trigger. But as of now, they have no reason to think Webb=more wins than Ponder.

    Both quarterbacks have looked good at times and both have looked horrid at times. I personally love Joe Webb and think that he could be a weapon and had they chosen to let him compete, would have had no problem with that ... but in the end, the only thing that makes sense is to go with the guy you drafted and hung your hat on to turn things around.

    Webb will always be a serviceable backup in the league and that is fine and dandy ... but I don't think anyone really thinks he is a serious top-tier quarterback. Ponder might not be either (I don't personally think he is) but we need to run him out there and see.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by midgensa View Post
    I personally don't see any problem with this.

    This team took Ponder in the first round with the projection of starting him. They have little choice but to put their eggs in that basket. I think if the coaches saw a SERIOUS difference ... like a guy they thought could win 8-9 games over a guy that can win 4-5 games ... then maybe you pull the trigger. But as of now, they have no reason to think Webb=more wins than Ponder.

    Both quarterbacks have looked good at times and both have looked horrid at times. I personally love Joe Webb and think that he could be a weapon and had they chosen to let him compete, would have had no problem with that ... but in the end, the only thing that makes sense is to go with the guy you drafted and hung your hat on to turn things around.

    Webb will always be a serviceable backup in the league and that is fine and dandy ... but I don't think anyone really thinks he is a serious top-tier quarterback. Ponder might not be either (I don't personally think he is) but we need to run him out there and see.
    It's this sorta attitude which infuriates me. We just need to roll with Ponder because of where he was drafted? Not which player performs on the field... but which player has the bigger contract. Got it.

    Teams draft guys that give them the best chance to compete, most of the time those guys are drafted in higher rounds... but sometimes those guys don't pan-out, that doesn't mean the team should stick with them regardless. You have to have competition at every position to see which players deserve to be on the field, regardless of where they're drafted or how big their contract is.
    Last edited by C Mac D; 06-26-2012 at 05:07 PM.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by keystonevike View Post
    I like Ponder, but I don't like the idea of naming him the starter now. Have an open competition for the job. Give Webb a chance to push Ponder to be better or push him out.
    Exactly. Frazier has removed all competition from the QB position, only one week after saying competition is the key to remaining competitive: Frazier sees competition as key to being, well, competitive | ProFootballTalk

    Can't make this stuff up. What a joke.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    It's this sorta attitude which infuriates me. We just need to roll with Ponder because of where he was drafted? Not which player performs on the field... but which player has the bigger contract. Got it.

    Teams draft guys that give them the best chance to compete, most of the time those guys are drafted in higher rounds... but sometimes those guys don't pan-out, that doesn't mean the team should stick with them regardless. You have to have competition at every position to see which players deserve to be on the field, regardless of where they're drafted or how big their contract is.
    No, we need to roll with Ponder because there is no evidence that there is a better option out there - it is his job to lose.

    I don't hear anyone complaining that Jared Allen isn't in open competition for his job. Or Adrian Peterson. Or Greenway. Or even Brinkley. Or Loadholt or Kalil or Rudolph. These are people who have been installed as starters, and are going into the season with that designation. Just like Ponder. Obviously they have to prove that they deserve to be there during training camp - everyone does regardless of contract or position. But coming into camp installed as starter is a helluva lot different that having some kind of competition.

    On that note, can anyone name me a single time when a team went into training camp with an open competition for QB and it worked out well? Anyone? (crickets chirp) Of course not. That is because teams never have two GOOD QBs on the roster at the same time. If there is a competition that means that they have two mediocre QBs, and the "winner" is still mediocre.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  8. #28
    C Mac D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    No, we need to roll with Ponder because there is no evidence that there is a better option out there - it is his job to lose.

    I don't hear anyone complaining that Jared Allen isn't in open competition for his job. Or Adrian Peterson. Or Greenway. Or even Brinkley. Or Loadholt or Kalil or Rudolph. These are people who have been installed as starters, and are going into the season with that designation. Just like Ponder. Obviously they have to prove that they deserve to be there during training camp - everyone does regardless of contract or position. But coming into camp installed as starter is a helluva lot different that having some kind of competition.

    On that note, can anyone name me a single time when a team went into training camp with an open competition for QB and it worked out well? Anyone? (crickets chirp) Of course not. That is because teams never have two GOOD QBs on the roster at the same time. If there is a competition that means that they have two mediocre QBs, and the "winner" is still mediocre.
    Yes there is a better option, and he's on our roster... at least if you're going to take last year's performance into play.

    By saying Webb is not starting material, you're saying Ponder isn't either. Ponder simply was outplayed by Webb last year... there's really no arguing that.

    Allen, Peterson and Kalil are different... they are elite talents. They're some of the best at the position, period. Them being on the roster makes other players at the same positions better by competing with them.

    Can anyone name when we went into camp without a QB competition and we won the Super Bowl? No? Oh, okay... I thought that was the goal. So I guess both sides of the argument are moot.
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mac D View Post
    It's this sorta attitude which infuriates me. We just need to roll with Ponder because of where he was drafted? Not which player performs on the field... but which player has the bigger contract. Got it.

    Teams draft guys that give them the best chance to compete, most of the time those guys are drafted in higher rounds... but sometimes those guys don't pan-out, that doesn't mean the team should stick with them regardless. You have to have competition at every position to see which players deserve to be on the field, regardless of where they're drafted or how big their contract is.
    I agree for the most part. As I said, I would not have had a problem with them saying it was an open competition either, but I don't have a problem with Ponder coming in as the guy either.

    I personally did not see enough of a difference in Webb last year, or the year before, and Ponder to say Webb should be the guy. As I state ... they both seemed to have solid moments and they both seemed to have extremely bad moments.

    I don't think that Ponder deserves the job more just because of his draft position. I more so figure they are a toss up and Ponder's draft position does help him in that case because you are more or less hitched to him. As long as they seem to be comparing apples to apples ... I feel like taking a shot with what was supposed to be the better apple.

    If they come into camp and Webb is dominating and he clearly is looking better, I have no problem with the switch. And you can bet your ass that if the team comes out of the gate 0-4 and Ponder has a 68 QB rating ... the team will start hearing it. But right now ... I don't really have a problem with naming the guy the starter that you drafted to be the started. Giving the team and offense a defacto leader.

  10. #30
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by NodakPaul View Post
    No, we need to roll with Ponder because there is no evidence that there is a better option out there - it is his job to lose.

    I don't hear anyone complaining that Jared Allen isn't in open competition for his job. Or Adrian Peterson. Or Greenway. Or even Brinkley. Or Loadholt or Kalil or Rudolph. These are people who have been installed as starters, and are going into the season with that designation. Just like Ponder. Obviously they have to prove that they deserve to be there during training camp - everyone does regardless of contract or position. But coming into camp installed as starter is a helluva lot different that having some kind of competition.

    On that note, can anyone name me a single time when a team went into training camp with an open competition for QB and it worked out well? Anyone? (crickets chirp) Of course not. That is because teams never have two GOOD QBs on the roster at the same time. If there is a competition that means that they have two mediocre QBs, and the "winner" is still mediocre.
    Crickets chirp indeed. Not often, so I'll have to go back a bit to find some of the better examples.
    But there are some recent examples as well.

    Bledsoe/Brady,Montana/Young,Majkowski/Favre,Favre/Rodgers,Rivers/Brees,Tebow/Orton,Warner/Lienart,Testaverde/Kosar,Aikman/Staubach,Staubach/Craig Morton,Jeff Hostetler/Phil Simms, and Earl Morral/Bob Griese.
    One could say Lienart, Tebow and Orton weren't legit, but most of the rest were pretty darn good.

    The fact is, Ponder is the chosen one. The chosen one has not performed any better than his back up. Which means neither one performed very well.
    The chosen one deserves every opportunity to develop into the franchise QB the front office thinks he can become.
    He needs to get every single snap he can get. That's why there is no competition.

    But I wouldn't summarily dismiss Webb like you have. Why can't Webb develop and improve like Ponder if he had been the chosen one?
    Is Ponder really smarter? It doesn't take an Albert Einstien clone to complete college in 2.5 years when you enter college with 1.5 years worth of college credit!

    I think Ponder will be the guy, just like you do. But don't be surprised if Webb takes his job if he gets hurt.

    I'm happy with both of our top 2 quarterbacks. One of them is going to turn out to be very good.

    BTW, the Vikings have a history of casting off good back up quarterbacks such as Brad Johnson and Rich Gannon.

    I hope they hang on to Joe Webb.

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