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  1. #101
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    Then, once more, if we want a block-first type guy, why did they spend over $8 million guaranteed, on a tall athletic guy who can get open?
    Doesn't make much sense to me.
    There are a whole bunch of TE's out there who are capable of blocking.

  2. #102
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    A few things......

    First, you are really bringing your "A" game today my friend.
    Great stuff.

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    You have to look at the salary as it impacts the personnel decisions available to the team.
    It was obviously pointed out as a FA need for the team so they pursued what they thought was the best option and paid him what it took to land him.
    I don't fault the FO for any of this, I am simply questioning that this guy has delivered to expectations.
    I would say that he has not and at this point that he does not significantly improve our team.
    That is, he has not made our team better.
    He probably has not made it any worse, but I doubt that is what they were going after.
    I hear ya, but again it gets back to the basics of the question.....Who's expectation. Evidently the staff does want to see some more production out of him, but seriously, don't you think he did everything they asked him to do last year?

    Did he make a few mistakes? Hell yes, but honestly, who on this team didn't last year.
    All part of the process I believe.

    My feelings on this is that most of the beef with him is because he doesn't meet fan expectations and I think the fans are expecting something out of him that the staff isn't/hasn't asked him to do.

    His salary is also important in that it ties us to him and makes it difficult to cut or trade him.
    It also hits the egos of the guys who signed him to admit he isn't all that.
    You know I agree with you to a point when it comes to salary and its impact on the CAP, however, I do believe this staff has a budget it sets at each position (plus or minus) and he fit in that budget.
    As to cutting or trading him, you would think that would only happen if he wasn't measuring up to what the team is asking him to do.
    Again, I still contend he did that last year.

    As to your point about ego's.
    Do you really think the guys in the front office really have ego's that big that they wouldn't get rid of a guy if he was a bust just because they didn't want to admit they were wrong in thier evaluations of a specific players?

    I just don't buy that.
    Studwell and Patton seem to have the confidence of Spielman, the Coaches and the Ownership group.
    Admitting they were wrong on a guy would probably be readily accepted by everyone in concern.
    Truth be told, that whole ego arguement is kindof one of those things I think is spurred on by the press as a means to sell papers.
    Why jeopordize your career by sticking by a guy if he is causing you to lose just because of your ego.
    Nope, doesn't wash with me.

    Most of the people defending Shank are saying that his mediocre ability is okay for our team.
    That's fine, but it doesn't help take him out of the wasted signing category.
    I don't think anyone is defending Shanc.
    Quite the contrary, most of us on my side of the discussion are saying that it is way to early to tell on this cat.
    Let the offense show it has matured enough to run a effective passing attack (that includes all facets) and then lets make a determination.

    Additionally, at least most of us, are saying that just because he isn't a hybrid TE that streaks down the field exposing seems and stretching defense, doesn't mean he isn't talented.
    It just means he isn't a hybrid TE that most like to see these days.
    Again, the scheme just doesn't call for it that much.
    If it did I am sure we would see Mills out there more as he is one of those "Hybrid" TE's instead of a "In-line" guy like Shanc.

    And its fine to keep the faith.
    Admirable even.
    Just not much of an argument.
    LOL, I never argue, just discuss and I always keep the faith my friend.
    At least as long as the Vikes have been the Vikes. ;D


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  3. #103
    snowinapril's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    Then, once more, if we want a block-first type guy, why did they spend over $8 million guaranteed, on a tall athletic guy who can get open?
    Doesn't make much sense to me.
    There are a whole bunch of TE's out there who are capable of blocking.
    JMHO, but they thought he was an elusive TE.
    Which he does find himself open at times.


    When it comes down to it, we have seen too little of him to make a real judgment on the guy.
    He has had some opportunities but hasn't wowed anyone or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    What most of us remember is the anti-wow.
    The dropped TD passes and the fumbles.

    Edit:
    That called drop in KC actually kept us from the playoffs, in hindsight.
    It was not just him that game.
    There we at least 3 plays that game that would have changed the outcome of that game in our favor not all his fault.
    Please don't try to argue that he actually caught that.
    That game is done and it was ruled incomplete.
    He needed to be more convincing if he actually caught it, put it away.

  4. #104
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    A few things......

    First, you are really bringing your "A" game today my friend.
    Great stuff.

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    You have to look at the salary as it impacts the personnel decisions available to the team.
    It was obviously pointed out as a FA need for the team so they pursued what they thought was the best option and paid him what it took to land him.
    I don't fault the FO for any of this, I am simply questioning that this guy has delivered to expectations.
    I would say that he has not and at this point that he does not significantly improve our team.
    That is, he has not made our team better.
    He probably has not made it any worse, but I doubt that is what they were going after.
    I hear ya, but again it gets back to the basics of the question.....Who's expectation. Evidently the staff does want to see some more production out of him, but seriously, don't you think he did everything they asked him to do last year?

    Did he make a few mistakes? Hell yes, but honestly, who on this team didn't last year.
    All part of the process I believe.

    My feelings on this is that most of the beef with him is because he doesn't meet fan expectations and I think the fans are expecting something out of him that the staff isn't/hasn't asked him to do.
    And I'm saying that I think the FO was hoping to utilize him more than what they have.
    Now maybe they haven't because of issues with blocking or bringing up a young QB.
    I don't lay this on Shank.
    It could also be that his receiving production is limited because they don't believe he has the talent they were expecting. If you believe that we will never see much more of a role out of the TE than what we've seen, then I still say why spend the money on Shank that they did when they could of got by with what we had (sans Wiggo, the guy clearly needs to be able to block).

    His salary is also important in that it ties us to him and makes it difficult to cut or trade him.
    It also hits the egos of the guys who signed him to admit he isn't all that.
    You know I agree with you to a point when it comes to salary and its impact on the CAP, however, I do believe this staff has a budget it sets at each position (plus or minus) and he fit in that budget.
    As to cutting or trading him, you would think that would only happen if he wasn't measuring up to what the team is asking him to do.
    Again, I still contend he did that last year.

    As to your point about ego's.
    Do you really think the guys in the front office really have ego's that big that they wouldn't get rid of a guy if he was a bust just because they didn't want to admit they were wrong in thier evaluations of a specific players?

    I just don't buy that.
    Studwell and Patton seem to have the confidence of Spielman, the Coaches and the Ownership group.
    Admitting they were wrong on a guy would probably be readily accepted by everyone in concern.
    Truth be told, that whole ego arguement is kindof one of those things I think is spurred on by the press as a means to sell papers.
    Why jeopordize your career by sticking by a guy if he is causing you to lose just because of your ego.

    Nope, doesn't wash with me.
    I doubt the ego thing would go very far with this org as well, but it always has some factor in it.
    It's human.

    Most of the people defending Shank are saying that his mediocre ability is okay for our team.
    That's fine, but it doesn't help take him out of the wasted signing category.
    I don't think anyone is defending Shanc.
    Quite the contrary, most of us on my side of the discussion are saying that it is way to early to tell on this cat.
    Let the offense show it has matured enough to run a effective passing attack (that includes all facets) and then lets make a determination.

    Additionally, at least most of us, are saying that just because he isn't a hybrid TE that streaks down the field exposing seems and stretching defense, doesn't mean he isn't talented.
    It just means he isn't a hybrid TE that most like to see these days.
    Again, the scheme just doesn't call for it that much.
    If it did I am sure we would see Mills out there more as he is one of those "Hybrid" TE's instead of a "In-line" guy like Shanc.
    It may be too early, and hopefully he will improve.
    that is more of the discussion that the talent side of this debate should be after.
    The "its okay if he's not that talented" is the part that doesn't sit well with me.

    If a Hybrid TE means that he can block and catch (down the field), then I think that is what we paid for in Shank.
    We didn't need to spend the coin we did for another blocking TE/outlet guy.

    Also, Mills hasn't seen a lot of action yet.
    But his skills seem to lie much more in his receiving skills than his blocking skills.
    More like Wiggins.
    I think of the Hybrid TE as being a big body gjuy that can block as well as burn the LB's and safeties in the league.
    Mills doesn't seem to be in the mold of an Antonio Gates or Tony Gonzales.
    And its fine to keep the faith.
    Admirable even.
    Just not much of an argument.
    LOL, I never argue, just discuss and I always keep the faith my friend.

    At least as long as the Vikes have been the Vikes. ;D
    And that's why we love you, always keeping the purple faith.
    Can never fault anyone for that.
    Maybe you'll take me over from the cynical side eventually and I will quit questioning things and just accept that everything is going to plan

    ;D




  5. #105
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    I'd rather go into the season with Sauce and Mills...
    Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.

  6. #106
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    "V" wrote:
    [quote]
    "i_bleed_purple" wrote:
    ""marrdro"]<br" wrote:

    But does he really fit the system?
    Sure maybe at first they thought he did, but do you still think so?
    You claim he's used for his blocking, so why, i will ask again, did we just not keep Kleinsasser?
    He's a great blocker, and has some alright hands on him too.
    He's not as fast, but still a decent option at TE.
    If we wanted a pass catcher, we would have stuck with Wiggins.
    He was able to get open, and he caught a lot of balls, and sometimes he would hurdle someone for fun.
    1. Shank definitely fits the system. I am not a fan of him at all, but he fits the system. Wiggins did not.
    2. What has changed between now and when we first got him? The scheme has NEVER depended on the TE, even when Wiggins was here.
    3. We did keep Sauce, and they both see a ton of time. Sauce is getting up there in age, and Shank is a smooth transition. The question you should be asking is: Why have we not seen Mills? It's because Mills is a Cooley-type TE who does not fit our system as well as Shank or Sauce.
    4. Knocking on the door with Wiggins. We didn't stick with him because he wasn't the right type of TE for the way Childress ran the offense. During 2006 I was livid at how Chilly underutilized Wiggins while the passing game stalled.
    5. Again, I don't agree with much of it, but that's how it is. I would much rather have a Crumpler-like consistent pass-catching option as a safety valve for our QB. Instead we have a block-first type guy who is a last resort during passing downs. We are more likely to pass to RB,FB, and the slot receiver than TE. It's just the way it is. Shank fits that role. He should not be depended on, and we don't depend on him.

    Quite different than the lie of stretching the field that was made when he was signed huh? Ignore the money and see what he really is and how we intend to use him.
    Can I buy you a drink?
    ;D
    Nice post

  7. #107
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    "tastywaves" wrote:
    SNIP.........
    Great stuff. Couldn't have said it better.

    If a Hybrid TE means that he can block and catch (down the field), then I think that is what we paid for in Shank.
    We didn't need to spend the coin we did for another blocking TE/outlet guy.

    Also, Mills hasn't seen a lot of action yet.
    But his skills seem to lie much more in his receiving skills than his blocking skills.
    More like Wiggins.
    I think of the Hybrid TE as being a big body gjuy that can block as well as burn the LB's and safeties in the league.
    Mills doesn't seem to be in the mold of an Antonio Gates or Tony Gonzales.
    When I say a "In-line" TE, I am describing a 260ish kindof guy that can block and catch balls.

    When I say a "Hybrid" TE, I am describing a guy 240ish or less that really isn't gonna be a blocker but is a bit faster and can really stretch the field.
    Kindof a cross between a WR and a TE but a bit taller than a FB.

    By the way, I've left it open several times for someone to comment that Shanc has lost enough weight to be almost considered a "Hybrid" now but there haven't been any takers.
    The guys probably remember that I thought, because he lost that weight, he wouldn't be able to stand up to the DE's in one on one matchups like we see at times. ;D


    And that's why we love you, always keeping the purple faith.
    Can never fault anyone for that.
    Maybe you'll take me over from the cynical side eventually and I will quit questioning things and just accept that everything is going to plan
    Except when it comes to Ex-PUKER players.
    That is were I draw the line my friend.
    Cynicism overwhelms/gets the better of me then my friend.
    ;D



    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #108
    Zeus's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [
    And that's why we love you, always keeping the purple faith.
    Can never fault anyone for that.
    Maybe you'll take me over from the cynical side eventually and I will quit questioning things and just accept that everything is going to plan
    Except when it comes to Ex-PUKER players.
    That is were I draw the line my friend.
    Cynicism overwhelms/gets the better of me then my friend.

    ;D
    Let's not confuse cynicism with blind hatred, now, Marty.

    =Z=

    Thanks to Josdin for the awesome sig!

  9. #109
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    "Zeus" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [
    And that's why we love you, always keeping the purple faith.
    Can never fault anyone for that.
    Maybe you'll take me over from the cynical side eventually and I will quit questioning things and just accept that everything is going to plan
    Except when it comes to Ex-PUKER players.
    That is were I draw the line my friend.
    Cynicism overwhelms/gets the better of me then my friend.

    ;D
    Let's not confuse cynicism with blind hatred, now, Marty.

    =Z=
    LOL, I try not to use the Hate word.
    Sometimes I do slip up though.
    Disdain, probably fits just as well.
    ;D
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  10. #110
    i_bleed_purple's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings TE Shiancoe tries to get back on track

    nah, i'd say hate pretty much explains it all.

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