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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Viking's Sharper says defensive schemes have changed

    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    Hmmm.....despite critisism from others, I have been stating that the scheme needs to change to cater to the players strengths.

    But have they really changed or have the youngsters (McCauley, Griffing, Gordon) gotten better with time to open the playbook up a bit more allowing for the ball hawks to ad lib a bit?....... :
    Nope. They adjusted it.
    :P

    Call it opening up the playbook if you must, but it's a look we haven't seen so far.
    But we have.

    a.
    The linebackers have been doing the very same thing since the Lions loss. Only new wrinkle we saw yesterday was the safeties blitz more and the LB's dropped into coverage more.
    Same scheme, new wrinkle = opening up the play book.

    b.
    DT and DE have been dropping into coverage.
    My friend people on this very page were hacking on the coaching staff for doing it with Phat Pat against GB.
    What is the difference?
    QB experience.
    Same scheme, same wrinkle.


    Why is it so hard for people to understand that you wouldn't give a 3rd grader a 12 grade level book.
    You would give him a 3rd grade book and gradually increase the corriculumn as thier experience level increases.

    That isn't changing the scheme, that is opening up the playbook and revealing more of the scheme.

    ;D
    Same scheme, new wrinkle = adjusting the scheme in my book. Opening up & letting the DB's have a little more freedom is also an adjustment to the scheme. I've never said the scheme changed completely. I've always maintained that the current scheme should be adjusted, tweaked (changed) to better cater to the players potential.

    Without ever seeing the playbook, how can you say with confidence that the playbook is just being opened up?

    Note Sharpers words;

    Vikings safety Darren Sharper joyfully proclaimed the defensive schemes changed
    He knows the playbook. Notice he states "the defensive schemes changed" & doesn't proclaim
    "the Vikings have opened the playbook"

    Why is it so hard for people to understand that you wouldn't give a 3rd grader a 12 grade level book.
    You would give him a 3rd grade book and gradually increase the corriculumn as thier experience level increases.
    In the same respect, you don't give a 12th grader a 3rd grade book, just because there is a new teacher.

    We do have veterans on defense.
    But you keep using the Sharper quote as your proof when in fact I used the coaches quote (that this writer selectively left out of his article) in another thread that in fact discounts Sharpers claim.


    Adding additional stuff to the scheme is not changing the scheme.
    It is opening the playbook, a term I didn't make up by the way.


    As far as giving a 12th grader a 3rd grade book...........
    Are you saying just because McKinnie, Hutch and Birk were vets they should automatically have a grasp on a new scheme such as the ZB scheme?
    Seems it took them almost a year and a half to figure it out finally.


    Woner what grade book the coaches gave them?
    ;D

    Face it my friend, it is normal practice in the NFL, especially when new coaches come in or you have new players at positions (i.e. QB, CB, etc) to limit the amount of info for them to digest at first and then gradually adding to that knowledge base as thier experience level increases.
    In NFL terms that is called "Opening the Playbook".
    Again, a term I didn't invent my friend.

    I know you want to believe that the coaches just opened up thier eyes one day and said, hey this stuff we put together, worked on during OTA's, Pre-season and halfway through the season isn't working so lets shitcan it and come up with something different, however, in the real world of NFL football play callings, schemes and playbooks are so complex that just doesn't happen.

    Regardless of what you think, they haven't done some miracle or got a revalation as coaches which has made them better.
    They have just kept on coaching the team, the team is getting better and the playbook is getting opened revealing more complexity.

    Not very hard to comprehend my friend..... ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #22
    singersp's Avatar
    singersp is offline PPO Newshound
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    Re: Viking's Sharper says defensive schemes have changed

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    [quote author=singersp link=topic=40006.msg679645#msg679645 date=1196084392]
    Hmmm.....despite critisism from others, I have been stating that the scheme needs to change to cater to the players strengths.

    But have they really changed or have the youngsters (McCauley, Griffing, Gordon) gotten better with time to open the playbook up a bit more allowing for the ball hawks to ad lib a bit?....... :
    Nope. They adjusted it.
    :P

    Call it opening up the playbook if you must, but it's a look we haven't seen so far.
    But we have.

    a.
    The linebackers have been doing the very same thing since the Lions loss. Only new wrinkle we saw yesterday was the safeties blitz more and the LB's dropped into coverage more.
    Same scheme, new wrinkle = opening up the play book.

    b.
    DT and DE have been dropping into coverage.
    My friend people on this very page were hacking on the coaching staff for doing it with Phat Pat against GB.
    What is the difference?
    QB experience.
    Same scheme, same wrinkle.


    Why is it so hard for people to understand that you wouldn't give a 3rd grader a 12 grade level book.
    You would give him a 3rd grade book and gradually increase the corriculumn as thier experience level increases.

    That isn't changing the scheme, that is opening up the playbook and revealing more of the scheme.

    ;D
    Same scheme, new wrinkle = adjusting the scheme in my book. Opening up & letting the DB's have a little more freedom is also an adjustment to the scheme. I've never said the scheme changed completely. I've always maintained that the current scheme should be adjusted, tweaked (changed) to better cater to the players potential.

    Without ever seeing the playbook, how can you say with confidence that the playbook is just being opened up?

    Note Sharpers words;

    Vikings safety Darren Sharper joyfully proclaimed the defensive schemes changed
    He knows the playbook. Notice he states "the defensive schemes changed" & doesn't proclaim
    "the Vikings have opened the playbook"

    Why is it so hard for people to understand that you wouldn't give a 3rd grader a 12 grade level book.
    You would give him a 3rd grade book and gradually increase the corriculumn as thier experience level increases.
    In the same respect, you don't give a 12th grader a 3rd grade book, just because there is a new teacher.

    We do have veterans on defense.
    But you keep using the Sharper quote as your proof when in fact I used the coaches quote (that this writer selectively left out of his article) in another thread that in fact discounts Sharpers claim.


    Adding additional stuff to the scheme is not changing the scheme.
    It is opening the playbook, a term I didn't make up by the way.


    As far as giving a 12th grader a 3rd grade book...........
    Are you saying just because McKinnie, Hutch and Birk were vets they should automatically have a grasp on a new scheme such as the ZB scheme?
    Seems it took them almost a year and a half to figure it out finally.


    Woner what grade book the coaches gave them?

    ;D

    Face it my friend, it is normal practice in the NFL, especially when new coaches come in or you have new players at positions (i.e. QB, CB, etc) to limit the amount of info for them to digest at first and then gradually adding to that knowledge base as thier experience level increases.
    In NFL terms that is called "Opening the Playbook".
    Again, a term I didn't invent my friend.

    I know you want to believe that the coaches just opened up thier eyes one day and said, hey this stuff we put together, worked on during OTA's, Pre-season and halfway through the season isn't working so lets shitcan it and come up with something different, however, in the real world of NFL football play callings, schemes and playbooks are so complex that just doesn't happen.

    Regardless of what you think, they haven't done some miracle or got a revalation as coaches which has made them better.
    They have just kept on coaching the team, the team is getting better and the playbook is getting opened revealing more complexity.

    Not very hard to comprehend my friend..... ;D
    [/quote]

    What coaches quote & in what thread. I did not see it.

    You are once again trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say. Nowhere did I say the coaches shit canned the scheme & tried something else, but rather that the scheme was tweaked & adjusted slightly.

    If you want to say it's opening up the playbook, so be it. The fact remains & the point I'm trying to make that tweaks, adjustments or a new wrinkle as you call it has happened & it's somewhat different than what we have witnessed in past games.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Viking's Sharper says defensive schemes have changed

    "patistheman" wrote:
    My question is why did we blitz the crap out of Rivers, rush 3 and sometimes 2 against the packers, blitz the raiders a little more and then go to blitzing the crap out of Eli?
    Obviously the heavy blitz is working very well for us, why did we ever go away from it against the packers.
    As I heard Moose say yesterday even if it doest work right away just take the lumps when you get burned but don't go away from it because good things happen for our defense when we blitz.


    I have also noticed that when we blitz Sharper and Smith don't drop into their deep cover two zones, they are up more in the middle of the field where they each made a pick ( not smiths TD his first one) and had a couple passes broken up also.
    I think they play better in that spot of the field where they have more oportunities to make plays.
    Just an observation and opinion.

    I also saw a great pass rush from the front four after the last INT, and it was all backup lineman, Johson, Robison and James, I didnt get a good look at to see who the other tackle was it may have been Williams because he was in on the next series again.
    I was very happy with the pressure we could get without the blitz.
    I have to give props to Udeze, he has been playing great all year and getting pressure on a pretty consistent basis, especially compared to last year.
    Very good question(s).

    This team, because we can't get a consistent pass rush from our front 4 has to augment our blitz packages in the base 4-3 cover 2 defensive scheme with our LB'rs.
    What this does is expose the underneath/middle of the field seams to passes to crossing in the areas that the blitzing LB's vacated.
    In short, you can't keep blitzing the way we are doing it to teams (i.e. PUKERS) who have an experienced vet at QB and a good line (Center) who know how to read the blitz.
    They will just audible out of thier play or hit the hot read etc.

    What you saw against the Raiders was a young QB and a backup Center who couldn't recognize the blitzing scheme and got rattled, made the wrong reads/audibles/plays/throws etc.
    As with Eli, again a veritable young QB in terms of NFL experience and a group of Backup WR's, a hurt WR' and a pompass ass for a TE who couldn't adjust to the blitz packages.
    In a lot of instances Eli threw the ball to a spot there was no reciever, who's fault, his or the reciever who didn't adjust his route based on the Centers pre-snap read, the QB's adjustment/audible or the QB for throwing the ball to the wrong spot.
    IMHO it was a mix of both for the Giants game.

    As to why we backed off of our steady diet of blitzs against Lord Favreeeee......
    Go back and look at what happened.
    Even when we came with all out blitz packages or tried to disguise it, the QB/C had the experience to make proper line calls and audibles which resulted in them picking us apart.

    As to your observations about our safeties. That is something the coaches have been doing to try to alleviate the whole our LB's leave when they blitz.
    Again, a good observation, but it is something they have been trying to do for about 4 weeks (as near as I can tell) along with dropping a DL into those areas as well.
    Again, not a scheme change, just part of the cover 2 scheme that the coaches have been employing for a few weeks.

    Sometimes it works (i.e against bad QB) and sometimes it doesn't (i.e Against good QB's).
    ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #24
    Marrdro's Avatar
    Marrdro is offline Beware My Spreadsheet, Bitches!
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    Re: Viking's Sharper says defensive schemes have changed

    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    [quote author=Marrdro link=topic=40006.msg679665#msg679665 date=1196085806]
    [quote author=singersp link=topic=40006.msg679645#msg679645 date=1196084392]
    Hmmm.....despite critisism from others, I have been stating that the scheme needs to change to cater to the players strengths.

    But have they really changed or have the youngsters (McCauley, Griffing, Gordon) gotten better with time to open the playbook up a bit more allowing for the ball hawks to ad lib a bit?....... :
    Nope. They adjusted it.
    :P

    Call it opening up the playbook if you must, but it's a look we haven't seen so far.
    But we have.

    a.
    The linebackers have been doing the very same thing since the Lions loss. Only new wrinkle we saw yesterday was the safeties blitz more and the LB's dropped into coverage more.
    Same scheme, new wrinkle = opening up the play book.

    b.
    DT and DE have been dropping into coverage.
    My friend people on this very page were hacking on the coaching staff for doing it with Phat Pat against GB.
    What is the difference?
    QB experience.
    Same scheme, same wrinkle.


    Why is it so hard for people to understand that you wouldn't give a 3rd grader a 12 grade level book.
    You would give him a 3rd grade book and gradually increase the corriculumn as thier experience level increases.

    That isn't changing the scheme, that is opening up the playbook and revealing more of the scheme.

    ;D
    Same scheme, new wrinkle = adjusting the scheme in my book. Opening up & letting the DB's have a little more freedom is also an adjustment to the scheme. I've never said the scheme changed completely. I've always maintained that the current scheme should be adjusted, tweaked (changed) to better cater to the players potential.

    Without ever seeing the playbook, how can you say with confidence that the playbook is just being opened up?

    Note Sharpers words;

    Vikings safety Darren Sharper joyfully proclaimed the defensive schemes changed
    He knows the playbook. Notice he states "the defensive schemes changed" & doesn't proclaim
    "the Vikings have opened the playbook"

    Why is it so hard for people to understand that you wouldn't give a 3rd grader a 12 grade level book.
    You would give him a 3rd grade book and gradually increase the corriculumn as thier experience level increases.
    In the same respect, you don't give a 12th grader a 3rd grade book, just because there is a new teacher.

    We do have veterans on defense.
    But you keep using the Sharper quote as your proof when in fact I used the coaches quote (that this writer selectively left out of his article) in another thread that in fact discounts Sharpers claim.


    Adding additional stuff to the scheme is not changing the scheme.
    It is opening the playbook, a term I didn't make up by the way.


    As far as giving a 12th grader a 3rd grade book...........
    Are you saying just because McKinnie, Hutch and Birk were vets they should automatically have a grasp on a new scheme such as the ZB scheme?
    Seems it took them almost a year and a half to figure it out finally.


    Woner what grade book the coaches gave them?

    ;D

    Face it my friend, it is normal practice in the NFL, especially when new coaches come in or you have new players at positions (i.e. QB, CB, etc) to limit the amount of info for them to digest at first and then gradually adding to that knowledge base as thier experience level increases.
    In NFL terms that is called "Opening the Playbook".
    Again, a term I didn't invent my friend.

    I know you want to believe that the coaches just opened up thier eyes one day and said, hey this stuff we put together, worked on during OTA's, Pre-season and halfway through the season isn't working so lets shitcan it and come up with something different, however, in the real world of NFL football play callings, schemes and playbooks are so complex that just doesn't happen.

    Regardless of what you think, they haven't done some miracle or got a revalation as coaches which has made them better.
    They have just kept on coaching the team, the team is getting better and the playbook is getting opened revealing more complexity.

    Not very hard to comprehend my friend..... ;D
    [/quote]

    What coaches quote & in what thread. I did not see it.

    You are once again trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say. Nowhere did I say the coaches pooh canned the scheme & tried something else, but rather that the scheme was tweaked & adjusted slightly.

    If you want to say it's opening up the playbook, so be it. The fact remains & the point I'm trying to make that tweaks, adjustments or a new wrinkle as you call it has happened & it's somewhat different than what we have witnessed in past games.
    [/quote]
    It was in an article much like this one that you posted yesterday.
    I will find it as I go through the threads and PM the link.

    I will give you tweaks and adjustments but it hasn't just happened. Seriously, go back and look at all the games after the Lions defeat.
    You will start to see the LB's blitzing more and more to include how they run up to the line, drop back and then another will run up to the line and drop back in an effort to confuse the QB and Center on thier pre-snap reads.

    In fact, if you take a look at the games between 4 and 5 weeks ago you will see them throwing in a bit of the 3-4 as well as dropping DE, DT's and brining safeties into those voids left by the LB's as they blitz.

    Remember all the yacking that went on about how dumb it was to drop Phat Pat into coverage.
    Again, nothing that just happened over night but something that has been going on for quiet a while now.

    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

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