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  1. #101
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Alharrissuks91" wrote:
    Right now I am pretty happy to be a vikings fan[size=10pt][size=10pt],[/size][/size] it was nice with the additon of Harvin and I am excluding the Brett Favre situation because I would say the situation is almost a 60% chance of him not playing, but honestly we still haven't even drafted a qb or found a legit one in the offseason which makes me really question the ownership in how well they want their franchise to do my oppinion is important to the vikings organization as a fan and the owners should listen to the fans more often as they almost seem to know more about football than ownership as they experience the games and want success more than ownership does because the sport of football represents each city in a strong manner, so point blank why can't we find a gol 'darnit qb
    I know what you are saying the owners should set up a chat page or something were we as fans could tell them what players we should sign especially QB's because us fans know who is out there and available right now that would really make us a better team especially now that we have youtube what do we need proscouts and the such for heck they could even make it a live chat during the game so we could help the coaching staff with play calling as well

    (JK My Sexy Little Pixie.
    Couldn't resist).

    ;D

    Anyway, on a serious note, I sure the hell hope the ownership group isn't ready to start listening to fans on how to run the team.
    Seriously, even the smartest of us don't have a clue about how a organization should be run.
    You give the teams too much credit. It's not rocket sciense it's football. I do think our current staff does a very good job.
    I think the credit is justified though.
    Whether we want to admit it or not, most, if not all of us don't have the faintest idea about running a team.


    Is it rocket science?
    Hell no, but seriously, it isn't like you just sit there and scour the waiver wire and sign players based on thier name and past exploits.
    Amen Brother Marrdro!
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  2. #102
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "ejmat" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    Are we comparing Brees, who in his 2nd year thre for 17 TDs and 3000 yards, to Tj who has never reached that feat?

    TJ has never thrown for double digit Tds in a season! Why would you compare the 2? It's foolish at best.
    If my memory serves me, Brees was not playing great his first 3 seasons in the league. It took a long time for the Chargers Defense to reach where it was. When Brees started they stunk. The didn't have gates until 2003 and had no Wrs worth mentioning. We have had a dominant defense and some ok Wrs and Tj still has not responded. Sorry but I am ready to pass on him.
    Yes this is what people are trying to compare.
    Amazing to me that people are trying to say Brees' career started the same as TJs.
    Brees was never labelled anything less than an average NFL QB.
    Can people say the same about TJ?
    What about Steve Young?

    http://www.nfl.com/players/steveyoung/profile?id=YOU299670
    What about Boller, Orton, Grossman, Carr, etc.
    Just because there is the rare QB who starts out badly and then turns it around doesn't mean that TJack will.
    For every one you name who made it I can probably name four.
    In fact, the odds are that TJack won't be able to turn it around.
    Great QB's are rare in the first place, as are the odds against almost all QB's drafted. So yes, it's easy to say that the odds are against Jackson, just as they are against Sage, JDB & as they were against Young and many more of the great QB's to play the game & all the QB's waiting on the sidelines today.

    For every QB drafted or to be drafted, I can easily state that the odds are against him & he won't be great or solid & I will be right more often than I will be wrong.

    What is even more rare is for a QB to come into the NFL and play well from day 1. The odds of getting one of those on your roster is even higher. As history has shown us, there have also been many QB's who the odds have been in favor of (top 10 picks) that haven't turned out.

    There have been many solid & damn good QB's, just like Young, who have struggled early in their careers & have turned it around, despite the odds.

    Does that all mean that Jackson will pan out & turn it around? Certainly not & you won't find a post of mine stating he will. Yes, I'll state examples of QB's that have been able to turn it around to prove that that the possibility is there, just as you can state examples of QB's who haven't. The potential, talent & work ethic are there, you yourself have seen it.

    Will Jackson turn it around & be great?
    Will Jackson turn it around & be solid? Or will Jackson stay the same or digress? None of us can say which it will be.

    I have seen enough improvement in his play each season to believe it's too early in his career to simply cast him under the bus & get rid of him, like many here feel we should do or should have done last season.

    That's my view on it & that's all I'm trying to say.

    The problem with many fans here is that they want that "Matt Ryan" or "Joe Flacco" who can come into the league & play great from the first time they start & if they can't do it in their 1st year starting, they'll cast him under the bus & want the Vikings to repeat the cycle until they can find one that can.

    As rare as that happens, they'll be waiting a long time. IMO the odds of finding that QB right out of the chute are a lot lower than finding a decent solid or even great QB that will struggle early in his career.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  3. #103
    nephilimstorm's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    Last year of Jackson's contract, so will see won't we.

  4. #104
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "ThorSPL" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "Caine" wrote:
    ...and yet, sometimes that's probably exactly how it is.

    You evaluate players based upon what they have done, where they are in their progression, and what you believe they can do for you.
    Sometimes you guess right (Adrian Peterson), sometimes you guess wrong (Erasmus James and Troy Williamson).

    As for "running the organization", if you're implying the day-to-day pay the bills kind of things, you're right.
    None of us know...but most of us could probably figure it out.

    If by "running the organization" you mean assessing talent and determining who would be a good addition to our franchise, I think that there are a solid handful on this site who could do as good - if not better - than the guys doing it now.
    After all, the sum of football knowledge of Ziggy and Mark Wilf is bupkis.
    I would guess that over 50% of the members of this site have more actual football experience, and probably have a better understanding of who would work.

    After all, the only difference between them and us is a few hundred million dollars...but in terms of football knowledge, that means squat.

    Granted, like any fan site, we have a plethora of people who probably shouldn't post opinions about players...people who get their inspiration from playing Madden and try and post it as gospel.
    (I'm tempted to toss in anyone who supports Chiller or has faith in Jackson...but I'll be nice
    8) )

    But at the end of the day, there really isn't much difference between the guys evaluating talent and a lot of us.
    They just get paid to do it.

    Caine
    Always enjoy your posts My Sexy Little Pixie even though we have a slight divergence on some minor points......

    I am referring to the whole picture when I talk about running a team.

    Could a few of us figure it out?
    Sure, I will give you that, however, by the time we did (most of these cats have spent thier whole life doing it) what state would the team be in by then?

    I would kill to be in charge of the Vikes for a spell but trust me when I say this.....I don't think any Joe (Marrdro) could come in and do what these cats do.

    Hell the staffing process alone would be mind numbing not to mention the little things like "Bringing in the Right Staff" or "Establishing a Network" etc would put us all at a dissadvantage.

    Case in point, I wanted to do a thread on a good ST's Coord that the Vikes should hire but truth of the matter is, I didn't have the faintest idea on how to go about finding which coaches in the league would be good candidates, let alone if they were contractually available.

    A issue like that would drive one to rely solely on thier staff which brings me back to "Bringing in the Right Staff".

    Again, I would love to think I could do it but it would probably drive me to drink cheap beer and loose my hair.

    ;D
    Thing is, most of these guys don't know everything either....they go hire people who do.

    Caine
    That is one key to effective leadership
    A great point.



    Having had my share of leading men and women over a 22 year span in the military I agree.
    Difference here is that in the military you didn't get to hand pick who you were gonna lead.
    They were just given to you and you trained them/got them ready to go using our background (experiences) and leadership skills.....

    In the role we are discussing, most of us (hell all of us) don't have the background to do that (pick a good team) let alone train them.

    In short, leadership can only get you so far, at some point, being the "Expert" would have to come into play and that would start when you picked your team.
    As I said.......

    Case in point, I wanted to do a thread on a good ST's Coord that the Vikes should hire but truth of the matter is, I didn't have the faintest idea on how to go about finding which coaches in the league would be good candidates, let alone if they were contractually available.
    How would've my leadership skills helped me there?
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #105
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "jmcdon00" wrote:
    Half of the head coaches in the league have losing records every year, I could do that.
    Been a tough morning here at work......You, my friend, just brought the first smile to my face today...... ;D
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  6. #106
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "singersp" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    "singersp" wrote:
    "ejmat" wrote:
    "kevoncox" wrote:
    Are we comparing Brees, who in his 2nd year thre for 17 TDs and 3000 yards, to Tj who has never reached that feat?

    TJ has never thrown for double digit Tds in a season! Why would you compare the 2? It's foolish at best.
    If my memory serves me, Brees was not playing great his first 3 seasons in the league. It took a long time for the Chargers Defense to reach where it was. When Brees started they stunk. The didn't have gates until 2003 and had no Wrs worth mentioning. We have had a dominant defense and some ok Wrs and Tj still has not responded. Sorry but I am ready to pass on him.
    Yes this is what people are trying to compare.
    Amazing to me that people are trying to say Brees' career started the same as TJs.
    Brees was never labelled anything less than an average NFL QB.
    Can people say the same about TJ?
    What about Steve Young?

    http://www.nfl.com/players/steveyoung/profile?id=YOU299670
    What about Boller, Orton, Grossman, Carr, etc.
    Just because there is the rare QB who starts out badly and then turns it around doesn't mean that TJack will.
    For every one you name who made it I can probably name four.
    In fact, the odds are that TJack won't be able to turn it around.
    Great QB's are rare in the first place, as are the odds against almost all QB's drafted. So yes, it's easy to say that the odds are against Jackson, just as they are against Sage, JDB & as they were against Young and many more of the great QB's to play the game & all the QB's waiting on the sidelines today.

    For every QB drafted or to be drafted, I can easily state that the odds are against him & he won't be great or solid & I will be right more often than I will be wrong.

    What is even more rare is for a QB to come into the NFL and play well from day 1. The odds of getting one of those on your roster is even higher. As history has shown us, there have also been many QB's who the odds have been in favor of (top 10 picks) that haven't turned out.

    There have been many solid & gol 'darnit good QB's, just like Young, who have struggled early in their careers & have turned it around, despite the odds.

    Does that all mean that Jackson will pan out & turn it around? Certainly not & you won't find a post of mine stating he will. Yes, I'll state examples of QB's that have been able to turn it around to prove that that the possibility is there, just as you can state examples of QB's who haven't. The potential, talent & work ethic are there, you yourself have seen it.

    Will Jackson turn it around & be great?
    Will Jackson turn it around & be solid? Or will Jackson stay the same or digress? None of us can say which it will be.

    I have seen enough improvement in his play each season to believe it's too early in his career to simply cast him under the bus & get rid of him, like many here feel we should do or should have done last season.

    That's my view on it & that's all I'm trying to say.

    The problem with many fans here is that they want that "Matt Ryan" or "Joe Flacco" who can come into the league & play great from the first time they start & if they can't do it in their 1st year starting, they'll cast him under the bus & want the Vikings to repeat the cycle until they can find one that can.

    As rare as that happens, they'll be waiting a long time. IMO the odds of finding that QB right out of the chute are a lot lower than finding a decent solid or even great QB that will struggle early in his career.
    I don't think that anybody here expected Matt Ryan or Joe Flaco.
    The vast majority of the people here watned to cast Jackson under the bus after one year starting.
    It does take time to develop a QB, and everybody knows it.

    The trick is deciding how much time you can invest in a QB before the cost of investment becomes greater than the return.
    Jackson is entering his fourth year.
    He was given the chance to start in relief in his first year.
    He entered the season as starter in his second and third year.
    He has been given chances - more than most QBs get when they enter the league.
    And due to either injury or suckiness (yes, that is a word ), he was not able to capitolize on those chances.

    Obviously it is too early still to knwo for sure what TJack's career will be like, but it is NOT too early to learn a considerable amount about TJack, and use that knowledge to make a prediction about the QB he will be.
    This is what I have learned about TJack:

    * Mobile
    * Strong Arm
    * Diminishing Accuracy over long distances
    * Does not reset when scrambling, resulting in bad passes more often than not
    * Good pocket passer
    * Good pocket presence
    * Slow reads
    * Locks on to one reciever

    From that I don't think that he will be able to be productive in the offense that we have here.
    Now, we could choose to change the offense to suit a single player, or we could change out that player to suit the offense.
    It makes more sense, IMHO, to change out the player.

    We don't want him to take every snap from the shotgun because that hampers the running game.
    We don't want to switch to a primarily man blocking scheme (which would take advantage of the QB's mobility) because again, that takes away from the running game.
    What we need is a QB who can make quick reads, stay in the pocket, and get rid of the ball relatively quick.


    Tjack isn't that QB.
    He simply isn't reading the defense or going through his reciever progression fast enough.
    Does that mean that he couldn't thrive under a different system?
    Of course not.
    But I really don't want to spend another year watching him struggle in the current system just because some people think he hasn't been given a fair shake.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

  7. #107
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I don't think that anybody here expected Matt Ryan or Joe Flaco.
    The vast majority of the people here watned to cast Jackson under the bus after one year starting.
    It does take time to develop a QB, and everybody knows it.

    The trick is deciding how much time you can invest in a QB before the cost of investment becomes greater than the return.
    Jackson is entering his fourth year.
    He was given the chance to start in relief in his first year.
    He entered the season as starter in his second and third year.
    He has been given chances - more than most QBs get when they enter the league.
    And due to either injury or suckiness (yes, that is a word ), he was not able to capitolize on those chances.

    Obviously it is too early still to knwo for sure what TJack's career will be like, but it is NOT too early to learn a considerable amount about TJack, and use that knowledge to make a prediction about the QB he will be.
    This is what I have learned about TJack:

    * Mobile
    * Strong Arm
    * Diminishing Accuracy over long distances
    * Does not reset when scrambling, resulting in bad passes more often than not
    * Good pocket passer
    * Good pocket presence
    * Slow reads
    * Locks on to one reciever

    From that I don't think that he will be able to be productive in the offense that we have here.
    Now, we could choose to change the offense to suit a single player, or we could change out that player to suit the offense.
    It makes more sense, IMHO, to change out the player.

    We don't want him to take every snap from the shotgun because that hampers the running game.
    We don't want to switch to a primarily man blocking scheme (which would take advantage of the QB's mobility) because again, that takes away from the running game.
    What we need is a QB who can make quick reads, stay in the pocket, and get rid of the ball relatively quick.


    Tjack isn't that QB.
    He simply isn't reading the defense or going through his reciever progression fast enough.
    Does that mean that he couldn't thrive under a different system?
    Of course not.
    But I really don't want to spend another year watching him struggle in the current system just because some people think he hasn't been given a fair shake.
    Wow, a couple of you have really brought your "A" game today.
    Excellent post.

    I just have one question......

    He simply isn't reading the defense or going through his reciever progression fast enough.
    Do you think he could learn to do this?

    Again I go back to my "Gut" feeling.
    For some reason I think a few contributing factors contributed to his ability to not only read a defense (mostly on him) but also getting rid of the ball (short and long throws) accurately that have been addressed this year.

    Lets sprinkle fairy dust on our OL and WR's this year and say it drastically improves in the pass protection area and consistently gives him a pocket to work in/out of as well as our WRs do a bit better job of getting off the line a bit better.
    Mix in some film study and coaching to continue with his abilities to read defenses......

    If those three factors come into play I think we would see a more confident, decisive and accurate QB in TJ.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #108
    BleedinPandG is offline Coach
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I don't think that anybody here expected Matt Ryan or Joe Flaco.
    The vast majority of the people here watned to cast Jackson under the bus after one year starting.
    It does take time to develop a QB, and everybody knows it.

    The trick is deciding how much time you can invest in a QB before the cost of investment becomes greater than the return.
    Jackson is entering his fourth year.
    He was given the chance to start in relief in his first year.
    He entered the season as starter in his second and third year.
    He has been given chances - more than most QBs get when they enter the league.
    And due to either injury or suckiness (yes, that is a word ), he was not able to capitolize on those chances.

    Obviously it is too early still to knwo for sure what TJack's career will be like, but it is NOT too early to learn a considerable amount about TJack, and use that knowledge to make a prediction about the QB he will be.
    This is what I have learned about TJack:

    * Mobile
    * Strong Arm
    * Diminishing Accuracy over long distances
    * Does not reset when scrambling, resulting in bad passes more often than not

    * Good pocket passer
    * Good pocket presence
    * Slow reads
    * Locks on to one reciever


    From that I don't think that he will be able to be productive in the offense that we have here.
    Now, we could choose to change the offense to suit a single player, or we could change out that player to suit the offense.
    It makes more sense, IMHO, to change out the player.

    We don't want him to take every snap from the shotgun because that hampers the running game.
    We don't want to switch to a primarily man blocking scheme (which would take advantage of the QB's mobility) because again, that takes away from the running game.
    What we need is a QB who can make quick reads, stay in the pocket, and get rid of the ball relatively quick.


    Tjack isn't that QB.
    He simply isn't reading the defense or going through his reciever progression fast enough.
    Does that mean that he couldn't thrive under a different system?
    Of course not.
    But I really don't want to spend another year watching him struggle in the current system just because some people think he hasn't been given a fair shake.
    I believe I highlighted your issues with TJ.
    Diminishing accuracy over distance, inability to throw on the run, reads and progressions... seems to me, at least 3 of those 4 things are areas I'd expect him to continue to work on and improve as an NFL QB.
    The 4th, accuracy over distance, I'm not sure is a huge deal.
    We all long for the 80 yards in the air bombs to Moss days, but it's really highly over rated.
    Generally when you throw deep you throw to an area and let the WR run to it.
    I believe TJ will have plenty of accuracy to do that once he figures out where that area should be (the bigger problem IMO).

    As for throwing on the run, I don't think college really prepares QBs to do that the same way required in the pros, just a different level of competition, a different speed.
    We KNOW reads and progressions are far harder in the NFL.


    You're stuck on this "he locks on to a receiver" kick and I understand that.
    What I've seen is he locks on to a WR waiting for him to get open before throwing it.
    He's looking at the right guy, he doesn't lock on and wait so long he gets sacked but he does lock on and wait before making the throw for the guy to get separation.
    That's a mistake for 2 reasons.
    First he needs to anticipate the separation and throw sooner so the ball gets there when it should and so the O Line doesn't have to hold their blocks longer and second it gives Safeties a chance to come over and help.
    From what I've seen, when TJ looks at a WR and sees coverage, he'll go threw his progressions fine.
    It's when he sees his receiver is going to get open that he'll lock on and wait to make the throw.

    Reading the D takes time.
    I think we give far too much credit to people like Flacco, Ryan, and Big Ben for their "pre-snap" abilities.
    I didn't see them calling audibles and adjusting their Offense in anticipation of the D the way a Peyton Manning or Favre would.
    What I saw was their ability to respond to a D and make faster throws because they trusted big play makers or anticipated their receivers being able to beat single coverage soon enough that they could throw the ball prior to the pressure getting to them.
    I don't believe any of the young QBs "read" a D better then TJ does pre-snap, I do believe they respond faster by anticipating better.
    The true measure of a man is what he'd do knowing he'd never be found out.

  9. #109
    NodakPaul's Avatar
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    Re: Vikings' QB situation of 2009

    "Marrdro" wrote:
    "NodakPaul" wrote:
    I don't think that anybody here expected Matt Ryan or Joe Flaco.
    The vast majority of the people here watned to cast Jackson under the bus after one year starting.
    It does take time to develop a QB, and everybody knows it.

    The trick is deciding how much time you can invest in a QB before the cost of investment becomes greater than the return.
    Jackson is entering his fourth year.
    He was given the chance to start in relief in his first year.
    He entered the season as starter in his second and third year.
    He has been given chances - more than most QBs get when they enter the league.
    And due to either injury or suckiness (yes, that is a word ), he was not able to capitolize on those chances.

    Obviously it is too early still to knwo for sure what TJack's career will be like, but it is NOT too early to learn a considerable amount about TJack, and use that knowledge to make a prediction about the QB he will be.
    This is what I have learned about TJack:

    * Mobile
    * Strong Arm
    * Diminishing Accuracy over long distances
    * Does not reset when scrambling, resulting in bad passes more often than not
    * Good pocket passer
    * Good pocket presence
    * Slow reads
    * Locks on to one reciever

    From that I don't think that he will be able to be productive in the offense that we have here.
    Now, we could choose to change the offense to suit a single player, or we could change out that player to suit the offense.
    It makes more sense, IMHO, to change out the player.

    We don't want him to take every snap from the shotgun because that hampers the running game.
    We don't want to switch to a primarily man blocking scheme (which would take advantage of the QB's mobility) because again, that takes away from the running game.
    What we need is a QB who can make quick reads, stay in the pocket, and get rid of the ball relatively quick.


    Tjack isn't that QB.
    He simply isn't reading the defense or going through his reciever progression fast enough.
    Does that mean that he couldn't thrive under a different system?
    Of course not.
    But I really don't want to spend another year watching him struggle in the current system just because some people think he hasn't been given a fair shake.
    Wow, a couple of you have really brought your "A" game today.
    Excellent post.

    I just have one question......

    He simply isn't reading the defense or going through his reciever progression fast enough.
    Do you think he could learn to do this?

    Again I go back to my "Gut" feeling.
    For some reason I think a few contributing factors contributed to his ability to not only read a defense (mostly on him) but also getting rid of the ball (short and long throws) accurately that have been addressed this year.

    Lets sprinkle fairy dust on our OL and WR's this year and say it drastically improves in the pass protection area and consistently gives him a pocket to work in/out of as well as our WRs do a bit better job of getting off the line a bit better.
    Mix in some film study and coaching to continue with his abilities to read defenses......

    If those three factors come into play I think we would see a more confident, decisive and accurate QB in TJ.
    Sprinkle that fairy dust on our OL and WRs, and I think that any QB would flourish.
    We do, after all, have Adrian Peterson.
    Unfortunately in the NFL pockets do break down quickly, and the primary WR doesn't get separation all the time.
    To be a starting QB in the NFL, you need to be able to produce even when the pocket is collapsing or the expected WR isn't open.
    Zeus wrote:
    When are you going to realize that picking out the 20 bad throws this year and ignoring the 300 good ones does not make your point?

    =Z=

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