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  1. #21
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine
    Good input my friend.

    I for one liked Schaub as well, but if you remember (I think you do) most thought it was way to expensive to gamble on him a that point based on a few games of relief of Vick.

    Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have spent the picks on him.

    Was never a fan of Carr. Course my visibility of him only started the year he came out/was available for the draft. Particular knock on him was that he was slow in his decision making.

    That is a big knock on a guy when you consider him as a prospect in a WCO where quick decisions/release are key to running it.

    I think the place were this staff screwed the pooch on was in the 2006 draft. When Denver asked, we should have answered and gave what they wanted for Cutler.

    I know that will bring Z out the door, but I still say he was successfull in Denver and he would be successfull on this team.
    Believe it or not Caine, I agree with you on Carr and Schaub. I was very vocal on here about bringing one of them in. I watched Schaub play in Atlanta and really liked what I saw. Carr always got the bad rap behind one of the worst OLs ever to play the game. Chilly didn't like Carr's mechanics and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub. IMO, a draft pick for Schaub would have been very reasonable given the roster at that time. Other than those two I didn't see any viable options.
    Comeon now, we are trying to stick with actual facts in this thread. Well, facts and my assumptions that are facts......

    The Chiller (actually the whole staff) decided that two second-round picks and an exchange of first-round picks was to much for a kid who only showed what he had in a couple of games. Not just a pick as you aluded to in your post....

    and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #22
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Gauging Minnesota's chances for a QB
    Could have put this in the "Vikings - Potential Players In The 2010 Draft" thread but it really fits good in here as it has alot of historical facts/data in it that goes with my stuff.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #23
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    From the previous link (damn edit button or lack thereof).......

    Vikings: Quarterbacks Drafted Since 1990
    Year Player Round
    2008 John David Booty 5
    2007 Tyler Thigpen 7
    2006 Tarvaris Jackson 2
    2000 Daunte Culpepper 1
    1995 Chad May 4
    1993 Gino Torretta 7
    1992 Brad Johnson 9
    Only way to fix this and keep it fixed, is to continually address this position in the draft each and every year. Something the previous regimes didn't do very well.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  4. #24
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Marrdro wrote:
    From the previous link (damn edit button or lack thereof).......

    Vikings: Quarterbacks Drafted Since 1990
    Year Player Round
    2008 John David Booty 5
    2007 Tyler Thigpen 7
    2006 Tarvaris Jackson 2
    2000 Daunte Culpepper 1
    1995 Chad May 4
    1993 Gino Torretta 7
    1992 Brad Johnson 9
    Only way to fix this and keep it fixed, is to continually address this position in the draft each and every year. Something the previous regimes didn't do very well.
    It dosn't help when your organization historically drafts the bottom for QB's, and inserts a pethora of old timers into teh position instead of taking a legitimate shot at a legit starter.

    Perhaps Chiller should throw caution to the wind and mortgage the farm on a top 3 pick? Maybe grabbing Bradford or Clausen early on and giving thema season behind Favre to learn teh ropes will be the answer?

    Maybe McCoy or tebow really ARE diamonds in the rough?

    Draft day is a crap shoot - I've long maintained that. Especially with QB's.

    But you can't win if yo don't play...and the Vikigs have historically avoided playing - except when they drafted Culpepper (Who was only good when Moss was on the field).

    Right now, I don't have an easy answer. In 07, I did. And during free agency, I still would have taken a shot at Carr THIS year. But that ship has sailed.

    What I DO know is that we're going to be screwed very soon if the Front Office doesn't address this issue this season.

    ...and I don't consider Jackson as a valid addressing of this issue.

    Caine

  5. #25
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Prophet wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine
    Good input my friend.

    I for one liked Schaub as well, but if you remember (I think you do) most thought it was way to expensive to gamble on him a that point based on a few games of relief of Vick.

    Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have spent the picks on him.

    Was never a fan of Carr. Course my visibility of him only started the year he came out/was available for the draft. Particular knock on him was that he was slow in his decision making.

    That is a big knock on a guy when you consider him as a prospect in a WCO where quick decisions/release are key to running it.

    I think the place were this staff screwed the pooch on was in the 2006 draft. When Denver asked, we should have answered and gave what they wanted for Cutler.

    I know that will bring Z out the door, but I still say he was successfull in Denver and he would be successfull on this team.
    Believe it or not Caine, I agree with you on Carr and Schaub. I was very vocal on here about bringing one of them in. I watched Schaub play in Atlanta and really liked what I saw. Carr always got the bad rap behind one of the worst OLs ever to play the game. Chilly didn't like Carr's mechanics and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub. IMO, a draft pick for Schaub would have been very reasonable given the roster at that time. Other than those two I didn't see any viable options.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1el59ig9AK8

    Just keep tacking on QB prospects and you're covered from future ridicule.
    Don't really need to. These are the 2 QBs I wanted the Vikings to bring in. Everyone else wasn't viable imo. I am good with sticking to these two.

  6. #26
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine
    Good input my friend.

    I for one liked Schaub as well, but if you remember (I think you do) most thought it was way to expensive to gamble on him a that point based on a few games of relief of Vick.

    Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have spent the picks on him.

    Was never a fan of Carr. Course my visibility of him only started the year he came out/was available for the draft. Particular knock on him was that he was slow in his decision making.

    That is a big knock on a guy when you consider him as a prospect in a WCO where quick decisions/release are key to running it.

    I think the place were this staff screwed the pooch on was in the 2006 draft. When Denver asked, we should have answered and gave what they wanted for Cutler.

    I know that will bring Z out the door, but I still say he was successfull in Denver and he would be successfull on this team.
    Believe it or not Caine, I agree with you on Carr and Schaub. I was very vocal on here about bringing one of them in. I watched Schaub play in Atlanta and really liked what I saw. Carr always got the bad rap behind one of the worst OLs ever to play the game. Chilly didn't like Carr's mechanics and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub. IMO, a draft pick for Schaub would have been very reasonable given the roster at that time. Other than those two I didn't see any viable options.
    Comeon now, we are trying to stick with actual facts in this thread. Well, facts and my assumptions that are facts......

    The Chiller (actually the whole staff) decided that two second-round picks and an exchange of first-round picks was to much for a kid who only showed what he had in a couple of games. Not just a pick as you aluded to in your post....

    and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub.
    I don't remember what Atlanta was asking for. I do know the Vikings thought it was too much. Personally, I agree in the fact there was limited playing time to base a decision on. I don't agree because I liked what I saw from him when I watched him play.

    Like I have said before I am not an expert by any means so I cannot blame Childress or the FO for not bringing in a QB if they think his mechanics aren't right. They know a hell of a lot more than I do so who am I to question them with any validity? I can still have my opinion though and I stand behind my thoughts then as I do now. I liked what I saw in Schaub and Carr. As much as I like Chilly and stand up for him I also see that obtaining one of these 2 QBs was viable imo.

  7. #27
    Prophet's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    ejmat wrote:
    Prophet wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine
    Good input my friend.

    I for one liked Schaub as well, but if you remember (I think you do) most thought it was way to expensive to gamble on him a that point based on a few games of relief of Vick.

    Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have spent the picks on him.

    Was never a fan of Carr. Course my visibility of him only started the year he came out/was available for the draft. Particular knock on him was that he was slow in his decision making.

    That is a big knock on a guy when you consider him as a prospect in a WCO where quick decisions/release are key to running it.

    I think the place were this staff screwed the pooch on was in the 2006 draft. When Denver asked, we should have answered and gave what they wanted for Cutler.

    I know that will bring Z out the door, but I still say he was successfull in Denver and he would be successfull on this team.
    Believe it or not Caine, I agree with you on Carr and Schaub. I was very vocal on here about bringing one of them in. I watched Schaub play in Atlanta and really liked what I saw. Carr always got the bad rap behind one of the worst OLs ever to play the game. Chilly didn't like Carr's mechanics and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub. IMO, a draft pick for Schaub would have been very reasonable given the roster at that time. Other than those two I didn't see any viable options.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1el59ig9AK8

    Just keep tacking on QB prospects and you're covered from future ridicule.
    Don't really need to. These are the 2 QBs I wanted the Vikings to bring in. Everyone else wasn't viable imo. I am good with sticking to these two.
    I was hoping for Schaub if the price was right.

    Personally, I am concerned about the QB situation and am 100% sure it is an issue after watching Favre driving the offense last year. I was pretty sure before that, but, now it is obvious. I definitely don't have confidence in TJack because, well, he has given me no reason to have confidence in him other than a few flashes in four years. Given that nobody is beating down the door for him he is either a well kept secret or too much of a risk for someone to invest in him rather than going off the board for a risk in the draft. Going off the board for a risk in the draft seems like the best move for other teams given that TJack is damn near as questionable as a starter as someone that hasn't played a down in the NFL.

    That being said, I have liked the offseason moves during the Childress regime. A lot. I will sit back and see what happens and expect yet another good offseason. It seems like we discuss the QB topic a lot, but, I guarantee that the boys at Winter Park have that issue on the forefront, and have had that issue on the forefront, for years. There is a plan, as dynamic as it may be, there is a plan. Anyone that thinks they are going to sit idly by while Favre moves to a home for ancianos is probably pumping black tar heroin in their veins during snack time.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  8. #28
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    From the previous link (damn edit button or lack thereof).......

    Vikings: Quarterbacks Drafted Since 1990
    Year Player Round
    2008 John David Booty 5
    2007 Tyler Thigpen 7
    2006 Tarvaris Jackson 2
    2000 Daunte Culpepper 1
    1995 Chad May 4
    1993 Gino Torretta 7
    1992 Brad Johnson 9
    Only way to fix this and keep it fixed, is to continually address this position in the draft each and every year. Something the previous regimes didn't do very well.
    It dosn't help when your organization historically drafts the bottom for QB's, and inserts a pethora of old timers into teh position instead of taking a legitimate shot at a legit starter.

    Perhaps Chiller should throw caution to the wind and mortgage the farm on a top 3 pick? Maybe grabbing Bradford or Clausen early on and giving thema season behind Favre to learn teh ropes will be the answer?

    Maybe McCoy or tebow really ARE diamonds in the rough?

    Draft day is a crap shoot - I've long maintained that. Especially with QB's.

    But you can't win if yo don't play...and the Vikigs have historically avoided playing - except when they drafted Culpepper (Who was only good when Moss was on the field).

    Right now, I don't have an easy answer. In 07, I did. And during free agency, I still would have taken a shot at Carr THIS year. But that ship has sailed.

    What I DO know is that we're going to be screwed very soon if the Front Office doesn't address this issue this season.

    ...and I don't consider Jackson as a valid addressing of this issue.

    Caine
    As usual, a quality post my friend.

    Problem is, good teams always draft at the bottom of the pecking order. Alot of those teams seem to find the Brady or can go out and find a young kid that appears to drink to much that one team doesn't like (Glanville) and pluck him from thier grasp.

    The wildcard here is that sometimes that takes time and more importantly, timing.

    With only a few years into this process I gotta believe the Wilf Ownership group is pretty pleased with what thier staff has done with respect to turning this team around and I believe that includes the QB position.

    What does that all mean? I'm not sure as I don't see the answer staring at me in the face right now, but Pat Kirwan said something on the radio (Monday I think) with respect to the Dnabb trading and who really called the shots on it......

    "These organizations are always thinking 3, 4 sometimes 5 years out. That is a hard thing for fans to comprehend or understand.".

    Maybe, just maybe, that answer is 3 years out. Maybe it is staring us in the face and we just don't see it.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  9. #29
    singersp's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Prophet wrote:
    Nice job putting this together Marrdro, if I had a spreadsheet I would bump you up a little bit. That wouldn't be tough because I would have you and singer and blv, and VQ on the spreadsheet in their category of irrational hatred toward Favre even after being proven wrong on every single point they made.

    Back to the topic, this has been discussed a zillion times and I am glad you put this together so people have to actually come up with viable options rather than bullshit. There are still some that have the 'pie in the sky' mentality where there were a lot of options available.

    We can trace it back, like you mentioned, to Daunte flipping out to the Associated Press via e-mail and the untimely denouement of Brad Johnson's career after doing a good job backing up in '05 and taking the team over. Since then it has been a nightmare at the QB position until Favre was brought in. That band-aid has almost run its course now.

    So, if Favre comes back another year and a new recruit is brought into the learning process I wouldn't be surprised to see TJack start in 2011 with a couple options available just in case he ends up stinking up the field. The team continues to get built into a stronger team every year, so, it just may work out. I am hoping for resolution at the QB slot, as every Vikings fan is.
    There you go again saying I hated Favre. Again, there are certain thing I detest about him (his ego, his lack of participation in OTA's & TC, his ball forcing & his quest for upping his stats rather than playing within the system.) My reasons for not wanting him here were quite clear. Mostly, I didn't think he have the stamina to last the season, I thought he'd be an interception machine & knew he'd get sacked alot.

    He proved me wrong in two of those categories & I have no problem with him returning, although we all know or should know, that we won't see him until preseason or shortly before.

    Many of us can recall that he was signed to a 2 year deal last year, but now that the season is over, that two year deal meant he should be attending all the mandatory camps this year.

    OOPS! Someone wasn't thinking ahead, thus all the talk THIS year that it was only a one year deal that he signed, thus excusing him from participating in any mandatory OTA's, minin camps & TC.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  10. #30
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    From the previous link (damn edit button or lack thereof).......

    Vikings: Quarterbacks Drafted Since 1990
    Year Player Round
    2008 John David Booty 5
    2007 Tyler Thigpen 7
    2006 Tarvaris Jackson 2
    2000 Daunte Culpepper 1
    1995 Chad May 4
    1993 Gino Torretta 7
    1992 Brad Johnson 9
    Only way to fix this and keep it fixed, is to continually address this position in the draft each and every year. Something the previous regimes didn't do very well.
    It dosn't help when your organization historically drafts the bottom for QB's, and inserts a pethora of old timers into teh position instead of taking a legitimate shot at a legit starter.

    Perhaps Chiller should throw caution to the wind and mortgage the farm on a top 3 pick? Maybe grabbing Bradford or Clausen early on and giving thema season behind Favre to learn teh ropes will be the answer?

    Maybe McCoy or tebow really ARE diamonds in the rough?

    Draft day is a crap shoot - I've long maintained that. Especially with QB's.

    But you can't win if yo don't play...and the Vikigs have historically avoided playing - except when they drafted Culpepper (Who was only good when Moss was on the field).

    Right now, I don't have an easy answer. In 07, I did. And during free agency, I still would have taken a shot at Carr THIS year. But that ship has sailed.

    What I DO know is that we're going to be screwed very soon if the Front Office doesn't address this issue this season.

    ...and I don't consider Jackson as a valid addressing of this issue.

    Caine
    As usual, a quality post my friend.

    Problem is, good teams always draft at the bottom of the pecking order. Alot of those teams seem to find the Brady or can go out and find a young kid that appears to drink to much that one team doesn't like (Glanville) and pluck him from thier grasp.

    The wildcard here is that sometimes that takes time and more importantly, timing.

    With only a few years into this process I gotta believe the Wilf Ownership group is pretty pleased with what thier staff has done with respect to turning this team around and I believe that includes the QB position.

    What does that all mean? I'm not sure as I don't see the answer staring at me in the face right now, but Pat Kirwan said something on the radio (Monday I think) with respect to the Dnabb trading and who really called the shots on it......

    "These organizations are always thinking 3, 4 sometimes 5 years out. That is a hard thing for fans to comprehend or understand.".

    Maybe, just maybe, that answer is 3 years out. Maybe it is staring us in the face and we just don't see it.
    You said, "With only a few years into this process I gotta believe the Wilf Ownership group is pretty pleased with what thier staff has done with respect to turning this team around and I believe that includes the QB position."

    I think they're happy with everything BUT the QB situation...why else would the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION (Except for 3 people last year - Jackson, Rosenfels, and Wade) cream their jeans when Favre said "yes"?

    Ziggy and his meddling brother Mark (The source of all fault) know they have to win NOW or they run the risk of having to rebuild their Defense. Pat and Antoine aren't getting younger, and EJ is rehabbing again, and the secondary is iffy...they needed FAVRE to push the Craptacular Offense of Chiller into a legitimate KAO...Jackson and Rosenfels weren't going to get it done.

    Now, that speaks to the short term...in the LONG term - 4-5 years out - are we in a position of comfort? I'd say no. We need a legit prospect NOW, THIS YEAR, or we fall back into teh QB blahs that have plagued us for the past 4 years.

    Caine

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