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  1. #11
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    ejmat wrote:
    This is agreat thread and well put together by Marrdro.

    I have already been pretty vocal as to what I think about the QB issues so I'm not going to bore everyone by repeating myself.

    I will say this to 12PurplePride28. Regardless of whether or not people agree with you, your opinion is always welcomed. It is why this site (thanks toe Webby) is so successful. I, like most here love to talk football and try to make the others think like us. Although I know it will never happen it is still fun trying.

    You seem pretty level headed. Like I said before, not everyone will always agree. That is what makes coming here is so much fun as long as people respect each other's thoughts and opinions whether or not they agree.
    Thanks my friend. I can't believe that I opened the door two times in that thread for Bree's and you didn't put your stuff in.

    LOL. Sometimes you crack me up.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  2. #12
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Prophet wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Prophet wrote:
    Nice job putting this together Marrdro, if I had a spreadsheet I would bump you up a little bit. That wouldn't be tough because I would have you and singer and blv, and VQ on the spreadsheet in their category of irrational hatred toward Favre even after being proven wrong on every single point they made.

    Back to the topic, this has been discussed a zillion times and I am glad you put this together so people have to actually come up with viable options rather than bullshit. There are still some that have the 'pie in the sky' mentality where there were a lot of options available.

    We can trace it back, like you mentioned, to Daunte flipping out to the Associated Press via e-mail and the untimely denouement of Brad Johnson's career after doing a good job backing up in '05 and taking the team over. Since then it has been a nightmare at the QB position until Favre was brought in. That band-aid has almost run its course now.

    So, if Favre comes back another year and a new recruit is brought into the learning process I wouldn't be surprised to see TJack start in 2011 with a couple options available just in case he ends up stinking up the field. The team continues to get built into a stronger team every year, so, it just may work out. I am hoping for resolution at the QB slot, as every Vikings fan is.
    Thanks my friend.

    I've looked ahead a bit (2 years) and as usual, probably over analyzed it a bit, but there just doesn't seem to be a solution out there with respect to a Vet or a rookie coming in after the Noodle leaves that can/will run this team other than TJ.

    Again, I don't blame the staff for this but rather, I blame the coaches at the collegiate level (don't develop pocket passers anymore) along with the ability of teams to know pay exhorbitant amounts of cash to players which allows them to not only retain thier starters, but thier quality backups as well.
    I don't consider myself a college football fan, even though I go to about 8-10 DI games/year. I know what you're saying though about the collegiate level not developing QBs to be ready for the NFL. That has been my experience watching them play. I saw Tebow play a few times live and was far from impressed. He panicked, tossed picks, ran the ball way too much for me to be impressed. It seemed like he didn't let plays develop and ran, kind of Ron Mexicoesque. So, it's tough for me to get very excited about guys like that making their entrance into the NFL and making a splash anytime soon. I'm sure you guys that follow college ball at a more serious level have better ideas about which college stars may be able to make the transition. I'm really hoping they pick up a new recruit that is ready to compete next year or even being potentially available to toss into the mix if TJack doesn't turn the corner. TJack's next starting gig will be his last with the Vikings if he doesn't show some consistency in a few game stretch. The team is not a patchwork team like in the previous era, it is built strong and a middle-of-the-road dilferesque QB should be able to drive the ship. I'm hoping for better than that.
    I am far from a college football fan. In fact I don't even watch it, mostly cause it doesn't resemble the pro game.

    As to TJ, I agree, when he gets his chance, he will have to produce and I think he will, as you said, this team is the type of team that can carry a QB.

    Which brings me back to the pundints who say TJ has already had his chance(s). If (Big If) TJ ran out onto the field for the first time with this team, after sitting on the bench learning the way he was supposed to, I don't think any of us would have anything significantly bad to say about him.

    One of the biggest issues I have with the Chiller is that he ran him out there not only before he was ready, but he also ran him out there with a team that wasn't ready.

    Our OL was learning the new blocking scheme and issues with personnel trying to run it. Our WR's didn't know what stems and what breaks to take. Hell, even our TE (who all love now) struggled at first with his role in the scheme.

    No one in there right mind would expect a cat of TJ's background to come in and instantaneously carry a team of that caliber when it should have been the other way around.

    Nope, I am 100% convinced that TJ is ready to take the helm of the Viking ship right now. One more year of watching will only make that transition even smoother.

    Next step is to go out and get a viable backup (eventual replacement) for TJ. Say a Skelton, Robinson, Lefevour etc.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  3. #13
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Marrdro wrote:
    tastywaves wrote:
    Good work Marrdro on putting all the options available since Chilly's reign.

    Here's my take on the whole subject. Fans will not be happy with anything but a top 5-6 QB in the league, a true franchise QB. Even then there will be many for and against the guy. It is a position with the most visibility and impact on any team, which naturally brings any win or loss on any given day heavily into their perceived play. Fair or not, its the reason these topics get so much action.

    Just like any position in any sport there are truly only a handful of athletes that separate themselves from their peers. If you have one of the greats in the game, it is very unlikely that he will become available via FA...unless your as stupid as the Packers. Therefore your list of FA's throughout the years is predictably weak. There may be a diamond in the rough that with the right system and right coaches could break out and be one of those guys, but its a long shot at best. Typically FA QB's are stop gap solutions or backup fodder.

    In terms of the draft, we have not had a lot of chances to draft high on the boards since the TJ draft year and I'm not sure that we felt the need to go high in the draft for a QB in the early Childress years.

    Most teams in the NFL face a similar situation to the Vikings, that is, looking for a long term franchise QB to build a team around. With the emphasis on passing in the NFL right now, the importance of this position is greater than ever. Last year, must have been the best if not one of the best years on record statistically for the QB.

    So, yes, it hasn't been like we've passed on a lot of great opportunities to sign our long term franchise QB. But that doesn't mean there haven't been options if the organization felt it was a high enough priority. There are always ways to get things done, if you want it bad enough.

    It is a failing point of the Childress era (not necessarily with just Childress himself). If it doesn't get resolved in the next few years, it will more than likely take his reign down with him. It's just the way it works, if you want a long term successful program, you need a franchise QB.

    Now that the excuses are all out of the way for why we are longing for a long term QB, what are we going to do about it now? Part of the HC's job along with all his supporting staff is to find a long term viable option for QB, so far, that hasn't happened for whatever reasons.

    Most often the draft is where you need to make it happen. Hopefully the situation arises where we can land a guy that we think can fit the bill.
    As usual, a great post, but I do have one small nagging issue that I kindof differ with you on a bit.....

    Part of the HC's job along with all his supporting staff is to find a long term viable option for QB, so far, that hasn't happened for whatever reasons.
    It isn't the HC's job, unless of course he is the GM and HC.

    The way a typical NFL organization is structured is the GM finds, brings in the talent and keeps them under contract or gets rid of them, the HC and his staff develop and use that talent to execute thier scheme.

    Again, this is one of the biggest beefs I have with entities like ESPN and local/national sports rags. They keep on perpetuating this fallacy that the HC and HC alone is responsible for bringing in a cat like a QB and should be fired if he doesn't.

    I know that they use it to keep the masses all tuned in to see how things are going to unfold, but I absolutely hate that they do stuff like this and is the primary reason why I like shows like NFLN or NFL channel on Sirius Radio.

    They actually bring in the HC's and GM's and talk about this process instead of spinning it.
    I should have said HC and Vikings org. But, reality is, that the HC's success will be largely pinned to the QB situation. Why do you think Brad went so hard for Brett?

    Like in many jobs, the situation of why you don't succeed is less important then whether or not you succeed. If Brad is a good HC he will make the QB position high on his list of priorities and he will get Zygi and gang to buy into it. Just like he did with Brett. If he doesn't have this type of influence within our relatively soft organization, then he is not a strong HC.

    Somthing tells me now that Brad has had a deep playoff run and has shown what a good QB can do for the team, that he has more support than ever to find the next guy. If the talent staff lays an egg on a guy they bring in, Brad will feel the heat as much as anyone, so he needs to be driving this particular issue more than anyone else IMO. If Brad doesn't feel the urgency to drive hard on this issue, then he should take the heat.

  4. #14
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Bkfldviking wrote:
    Now there is an intelligent introspection on a particular position and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that TJ has progressed, but slowly. I don't think you are going to see much more improvement this year that you didn't get to see last year. It might be time to "move on" and take a chance on someone new, perhaps a McCoy (my preference) or Tebow, or someone else projected for the late rounds. Good value is there but takes good analasys and a bit of luck to find the next Brady or Warner.
    I agree, he has progressed slowly, but when one really thinks about it, shouldn't that be the way he should have progressed instead of the "Fire Hose" "Just get out there" approach that we as fans were forced to watch?

    If it is time to move on, it is to late to do it. None, I repeat none of the QB's coming out this year are gonna be ready to lead this team in 2011, let alone 2012 especially Tebow.

    Unless Dnabb, Brady, Peyton shows up in purple next year, our best option at QB is TJ. I for one hope to all that is good and holy that he is ready, which by the way, I think he is.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  5. #15
    Caine's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine

  6. #16
    Marrdro's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    tastywaves wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    tastywaves wrote:
    Good work Marrdro on putting all the options available since Chilly's reign.

    Here's my take on the whole subject. Fans will not be happy with anything but a top 5-6 QB in the league, a true franchise QB. Even then there will be many for and against the guy. It is a position with the most visibility and impact on any team, which naturally brings any win or loss on any given day heavily into their perceived play. Fair or not, its the reason these topics get so much action.

    Just like any position in any sport there are truly only a handful of athletes that separate themselves from their peers. If you have one of the greats in the game, it is very unlikely that he will become available via FA...unless your as stupid as the Packers. Therefore your list of FA's throughout the years is predictably weak. There may be a diamond in the rough that with the right system and right coaches could break out and be one of those guys, but its a long shot at best. Typically FA QB's are stop gap solutions or backup fodder.

    In terms of the draft, we have not had a lot of chances to draft high on the boards since the TJ draft year and I'm not sure that we felt the need to go high in the draft for a QB in the early Childress years.

    Most teams in the NFL face a similar situation to the Vikings, that is, looking for a long term franchise QB to build a team around. With the emphasis on passing in the NFL right now, the importance of this position is greater than ever. Last year, must have been the best if not one of the best years on record statistically for the QB.

    So, yes, it hasn't been like we've passed on a lot of great opportunities to sign our long term franchise QB. But that doesn't mean there haven't been options if the organization felt it was a high enough priority. There are always ways to get things done, if you want it bad enough.

    It is a failing point of the Childress era (not necessarily with just Childress himself). If it doesn't get resolved in the next few years, it will more than likely take his reign down with him. It's just the way it works, if you want a long term successful program, you need a franchise QB.

    Now that the excuses are all out of the way for why we are longing for a long term QB, what are we going to do about it now? Part of the HC's job along with all his supporting staff is to find a long term viable option for QB, so far, that hasn't happened for whatever reasons.

    Most often the draft is where you need to make it happen. Hopefully the situation arises where we can land a guy that we think can fit the bill.
    As usual, a great post, but I do have one small nagging issue that I kindof differ with you on a bit.....

    Part of the HC's job along with all his supporting staff is to find a long term viable option for QB, so far, that hasn't happened for whatever reasons.
    It isn't the HC's job, unless of course he is the GM and HC.

    The way a typical NFL organization is structured is the GM finds, brings in the talent and keeps them under contract or gets rid of them, the HC and his staff develop and use that talent to execute thier scheme.

    Again, this is one of the biggest beefs I have with entities like ESPN and local/national sports rags. They keep on perpetuating this fallacy that the HC and HC alone is responsible for bringing in a cat like a QB and should be fired if he doesn't.

    I know that they use it to keep the masses all tuned in to see how things are going to unfold, but I absolutely hate that they do stuff like this and is the primary reason why I like shows like NFLN or NFL channel on Sirius Radio.

    They actually bring in the HC's and GM's and talk about this process instead of spinning it.
    I should have said HC and Vikings org. But, reality is, that the HC's success will be largely pinned to the QB situation. Why do you think Brad went so hard for Brett?

    Like in many jobs, the situation of why you don't succeed is less important then whether or not you succeed. If Brad is a good HC he will make the QB position high on his list of priorities and he will get Zygi and gang to buy into it. Just like he did with Brett. If he doesn't have this type of influence within our relatively soft organization, then he is not a strong HC.

    Somthing tells me now that Brad has had a deep playoff run and has shown what a good QB can do for the team, that he has more support than ever to find the next guy. If the talent staff lays an egg on a guy they bring in, Brad will feel the heat as much as anyone, so he needs to be driving this particular issue more than anyone else IMO. If Brad doesn't feel the urgency to drive hard on this issue, then he should take the heat.
    LOL, you knew I was gonna jump on that particular discussion point as soon as you typed it, just as I knew you know how it works, especially with our triadthingamijib.

    Anyway, a couple of followon discussion points with respect to your last post.....

    I bet the QB position has been high on not only the Chillers, but the VP of Player Personnels (our GM) list since they got here. Hell, I believe that Foley got fired because he screwed up the 2006 draft over it. There should be no reason the HC has to sell anyone on its importance. The whole staff should be focused on it even after they get it solved.

    Again, back to the old regime. If they would have kept drafting QB's and developing them, the Chiller and his staff would have inherited a couple of prospects already in the system, already being groomed. Instead they basically had to start from scratch, starting with finding a starter ready to run the complex scheme after Pepp left.

    Back to this regime. I think there is evidence that they are doing thier utmost to solve this problem while working in the constraints of the environment they are in....

    a. Poor rookie talent pool.
    b. What rookies are worth taking are typically gone based on draft position.
    c. Poor FA talent pool.

    They have drafted QB's each and every year. They have brought in FA's each and every year. Problem is, as I said above, there just isn't that much to choose from.

    As long as the college game is gonna keep sending us "Spread Offense" guys that have to be taught how to be a QB and the CAP is gonna allow teams to retain thier starters and backups, the only solution is to keep on drafting low tier guys each and every year and hope that eventually you will have 2 or 3 of them in the process at different stages of growth so that you can draw from your own pool to fill/fix any wholes you have if your starter gets injured or opts to go someplace else for bigger better money.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  7. #17
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Caine wrote:
    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine
    Good input my friend.

    I for one liked Schaub as well, but if you remember (I think you do) most thought it was way to expensive to gamble on him a that point based on a few games of relief of Vick.

    Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have spent the picks on him.

    Was never a fan of Carr. Course my visibility of him only started the year he came out/was available for the draft. Particular knock on him was that he was slow in his decision making.

    That is a big knock on a guy when you consider him as a prospect in a WCO where quick decisions/release are key to running it.

    I think the place were this staff screwed the pooch on was in the 2006 draft. When Denver asked, we should have answered and gave what they wanted for Cutler.

    I know that will bring Z out the door, but I still say he was successfull in Denver and he would be successfull on this team.
    Many many thanks to my talented friend Jos for the new Sig.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/josdin00/Vikings/Marrdro_sig.jpg

  8. #18
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Marrdro wrote:
    ejmat wrote:
    This is agreat thread and well put together by Marrdro.

    I have already been pretty vocal as to what I think about the QB issues so I'm not going to bore everyone by repeating myself.

    I will say this to 12PurplePride28. Regardless of whether or not people agree with you, your opinion is always welcomed. It is why this site (thanks toe Webby) is so successful. I, like most here love to talk football and try to make the others think like us. Although I know it will never happen it is still fun trying.

    You seem pretty level headed. Like I said before, not everyone will always agree. That is what makes coming here is so much fun as long as people respect each other's thoughts and opinions whether or not they agree.
    Thanks my friend. I can't believe that I opened the door two times in that thread for Bree's and you didn't put your stuff in.

    LOL. Sometimes you crack me up.
    You know I wanted to. It's just been said so many times and if no one is convinced he wasn't a viable or great option at the time I will never convince them. As far as Warner is concerned I thought his career was over at that point after his stint with the Giants.

  9. #19
    ejmat is offline Jersey Retired
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine
    Good input my friend.

    I for one liked Schaub as well, but if you remember (I think you do) most thought it was way to expensive to gamble on him a that point based on a few games of relief of Vick.

    Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have spent the picks on him.

    Was never a fan of Carr. Course my visibility of him only started the year he came out/was available for the draft. Particular knock on him was that he was slow in his decision making.

    That is a big knock on a guy when you consider him as a prospect in a WCO where quick decisions/release are key to running it.

    I think the place were this staff screwed the pooch on was in the 2006 draft. When Denver asked, we should have answered and gave what they wanted for Cutler.

    I know that will bring Z out the door, but I still say he was successfull in Denver and he would be successfull on this team.
    Believe it or not Caine, I agree with you on Carr and Schaub. I was very vocal on here about bringing one of them in. I watched Schaub play in Atlanta and really liked what I saw. Carr always got the bad rap behind one of the worst OLs ever to play the game. Chilly didn't like Carr's mechanics and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub. IMO, a draft pick for Schaub would have been very reasonable given the roster at that time. Other than those two I didn't see any viable options.

  10. #20
    Prophet's Avatar
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    Re:Vikings QB Options Since Childress Arrived

    ejmat wrote:
    Marrdro wrote:
    Caine wrote:
    My single biggest gripe against Chiller has been th QB debacle...and everyone knows what I think of Jackson.

    What constantly fuels this "rage" is the 07 FA pool. The top 2 names on Marrdro's list are the two I wanted - in reverse order.

    I wanted David Carr, primarily, because we knew he could take a hit, and we knew he could put up decent numbers on a crappy team (Houston). I wasn't worried about him being another Tim Couch (ruined by the Browns).

    Matt Schaub was another possibility, but I didn't want to leverage the farm for him, and I figured Carr might be the better guy anyway.

    Chiller let them both slide on by without so much as an interview. And looking at our QB roster, I was baffled as to how he could do so. Then Chiller got in front of the media and touted how well Jackson had developed, and how ready he (Jackson) was to lead our franchise...

    ...and Jackson sucked.

    Of course, the following year, no one worth chasing was really available. And, since tht time, we have been chasing our tails on the QB issue.

    But in 07 we had opportunity and need. Carr and Schaub were both there, and Carr - who is competing in San Fran against an unfairly critisized Alex Smith for the starting job - could have been had for a bargain...

    ...but Chiller passed, and blew smoke about Jackson. I have never trusted him since.

    Caine
    Good input my friend.

    I for one liked Schaub as well, but if you remember (I think you do) most thought it was way to expensive to gamble on him a that point based on a few games of relief of Vick.

    Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have spent the picks on him.

    Was never a fan of Carr. Course my visibility of him only started the year he came out/was available for the draft. Particular knock on him was that he was slow in his decision making.

    That is a big knock on a guy when you consider him as a prospect in a WCO where quick decisions/release are key to running it.

    I think the place were this staff screwed the pooch on was in the 2006 draft. When Denver asked, we should have answered and gave what they wanted for Cutler.

    I know that will bring Z out the door, but I still say he was successfull in Denver and he would be successfull on this team.
    Believe it or not Caine, I agree with you on Carr and Schaub. I was very vocal on here about bringing one of them in. I watched Schaub play in Atlanta and really liked what I saw. Carr always got the bad rap behind one of the worst OLs ever to play the game. Chilly didn't like Carr's mechanics and he didn't want to give up a draft pick for Schaub. IMO, a draft pick for Schaub would have been very reasonable given the roster at that time. Other than those two I didn't see any viable options.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1el59ig9AK8

    Just keep tacking on QB prospects and you're covered from future ridicule.
    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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