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  1. #11
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    ........ We regress this year, and I would suspect we will see multiple coaching changes. You can throw it all on Ponder, but then if Cassell comes in and doesn't look any better, than I think you need to start questioning more than just the QB position.
    Personally, I would rather see Musgrave go, but Frazier kept, should they tank. Other than the QB position and cornerback, they have enough talent to contend. I would hate to see them start another rebuild when it isn't needed.
    Though Musgrave isn't responsible for selecting the players, he could end up the sacrificial lamb.

    Obviously I'm getting way ahead of myself here with a negative what if scenario ,considering the season hasn't started. But I wanted to make a comment about the importance of continuity in the GM and coaching staff. This is despite my belief that Spielman is mainly to blame for poor QB selection. Spielman is smart and knows football, but has a poor track record in evaluating QB's.
    The importance in continuity in the front office and coaching staff is one place I agree with Marrdro.

  2. #12
    Minniman's Avatar
    Minniman is offline Hall of Famer
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    Spielman is smart and knows football, but has a poor track record in evaluating QB's.
    Both here and in Miami.

  3. #13
    smegmavike is offline Coordinator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minniman View Post
    Both here and in Miami.
    I thought he was a bad hire and wanted him gone. But I've changed my position since he was made GM and clearly in charge of acquisitions. So far he hasn't hit on a QB, but I'm not advocating his firing. I would give him a chance at redemption next year, if necessary.
    The handling of the Winfield cut will likely hurt the team on the field if Robinson doesn't improve, and surely the GM should be making moves that improve, not hurt the team.
    But he seems to be getting better at drafting. Now if he can just resist reaching for a QB next time he needs to find one !

  4. #14
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    singersp is offline PPO Newshound
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Who the heck is apologizing for ponder any more? I just don't see people jumping to defend him and call for more years like you did with TJ.

    Publish your list of Ponder apologists and what makes them such.
    There's more sites out there than just PP.O.

    Try this Facebook link for 1. Marrdro posts there a lot.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/MinnesotaVikingsFamily/

    I didn't call for more years for TJ, I called for more games when he was benched after only 12 starts in 2007 & 2 in 2008. That was 14 games after being given the reins at the beginning of the 2007 season. Had TJ played all of 2008, I would have been calling for a new QB in 2009. Ponder has had 26 starts so far. TJ was 10-10 as a Viking. Ponder 12-14. Not much of a difference considering 1 was drafted in the 2nd round as a project QB from a Division I-AA school, while the other was drafted in the 1st round with the 12th pick of the draft.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  5. #15
    singersp's Avatar
    singersp is offline PPO Newshound
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    Quote Originally Posted by tastywaves View Post
    If you have that, then you don't need AD and you won't focus so much on the running game. AD would not be happy on a team that is a pass heavy offense, his value goes down. Your money would go to the QB and the receivers and you would focus more on pass blocking than run blocking. You would take what you can get with the running game, but it would be an afterthought. Because we have AD, the Vikings staff believes they can have success by running the offense through him not the QB. That is what Leslie has said time and time again. It may not be what you want, but it is who we are.

    Now, on the QB. Everybody wants to see better play from this position, everyone on this forum and everyone on the Vikings staff. If Ponder doesnt' improve, he will be gone. No need to keep jumping on his ass every second you get, his play will determine his future. For some, that means they will get to see if their preferred choice (Cassell) can come in and improve the play. If Cassell can't do it, then next year we will most likely be looking once again for another QB.

    IMO, with this staff and this team, the only QB that can come in here and have a significant impact is an elite experienced QB. It's what they've built. Why do you think that every QB that comes in here looks like shit. We are not a team conducive to elevating the play of a QB. You could probably take one of these athletic read option guys and have some success (at least for a while), but to get a true pocket passer and have success, it will take a proven vet IMO.
    No, you don't have a pass happy team. Re-read the post. You still have the same philosophy but at times when the running game isn't working, you have a QB you can rely on who can then lead the team with his arm.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  6. #16
    Reignman is offline Asst. Coach
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    Yes it's preseason and we haven't used AD so I haven't hit the panic button just yet, but you still have to be concerned with the way we've been playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by smegmavike View Post
    No reason to simply look for a game manager because you have AD. Let AD have less rushing yards, and more super bowl rings, I doubt he would complain.
    Thank you! That's why I argue with Ponder apologists so much. We don't have to settle for crap at QB just because we're a "run first" offense and have AD. A run first offense doesn't do you much good when you're down 2 scores late.

    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    There's more sites out there than just PP.O.

    Try this Facebook link for 1. Marrdro posts there a lot.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/MinnesotaVikingsFamily/
    Boy is there ever. On another message board, I spend a great deal of time arguing with apologists. And it doesn't matter how bad he plays, it's always poor blocking, bad play calling, or receivers not running the right route. Talk about denial.

  7. #17
    singersp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reignman View Post

    We don't have to settle for crap at QB just because we're a "run first" offense and have AD. A run first offense doesn't do you much good when you're down 2 scores late.
    While we run the football more than other teams, too many people believe we are a "run first" team. In order to be a run first team, you should be running the ball a lot more than you are passing it.

    Last year the Vikings ran the ball 486 times & passed the ball 483. 60 of those rushes were by Ponder, most of which were probably not designed runs, but the result after Ponder dropped back to pass but didn't because he hesitated to long & didn't trust his receiver or himself or there wasn't an open receiver. Of those 486 rushes, AD took the ball on just 348 of them. Gerhart 50.

    That said, we are actually pretty evenly split, passing more often than we are handing off to RB's, so passing becomes just as important if not slightly more than the running game.

    "If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you"

  8. #18
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Floyd View Post
    Who the heck is apologizing for ponder any more? I just don't see people jumping to defend him and call for more years like you did with TJ.

    Publish your list of Ponder apologists and what makes them such.
    There's more sites out there than just PP.O.

    Try this Facebook link for 1. Marrdro posts there a lot.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/MinnesotaVikingsFamily/

    I didn't call for more years for TJ, I called for more games when he was benched after only 12 starts in 2007 & 2 in 2008. That was 14 games after being given the reins at the beginning of the 2007 season. Had TJ played all of 2008, I would have been calling for a new QB in 2009. Ponder has had 26 starts so far. TJ was 10-10 as a Viking. Ponder 12-14. Not much of a difference considering 1 was drafted in the 2nd round as a project QB from a Division I-AA school, while the other was drafted in the 1st round with the 12th pick of the draft.
    Did TJ see the field at all in 2006? It seems to me he did and if so shouldn't those games count?

    Secondly, there is a pretty solid reason for him not playing more games in 2008. It was because he sucked and was even more hesitant in the pocket than Ponder is and after 2 games there was a near revolt for his play.

    It's also a bad idea to throw records into the mix because many other factors contribute to that record. Look at the defenses and how they performed during the times each was playing. I seem to remember some of TJs first wins where the defense scored as much as the offense and gave him great field position. Ponder had a defense that set a record for futility in interceptions and that was about as bad as this team has ever fielded.

    Ponder had the advantage last year of an OL that was better than TJ ever had and this year has a WR group that TJ could only dream of. So any comparisons even if he looks better would also be wrong.

  9. #19
    vikinggreg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by singersp View Post
    There's more sites out there than just PP.O.
    Posting issues with other sites without an attached a link and/or quote does make it look like your pointing the finger around here and imho if you have a bone to pick with posts on other sites you should probably post that there...just a thought towards some clarity

  10. #20
    Purple Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikinggreg View Post
    Posting issues with other sites without an attached a link and/or quote does make it look like your pointing the finger around here and imho if you have a bone to pick with posts on other sites you should probably post that there...just a thought towards some clarity
    Agreed.

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